Author Topic: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?  (Read 1640 times)

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Offline lennyk

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Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« on: August 21, 2012, 07:25:01 AM »
I've been adding water last,
is there any significant difference to mixing water and idy first then adding flour to water whilst mixer is turning ?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 08:01:54 AM »
I've been adding water last,
is there any significant difference to mixing water and idy first then adding flour to water whilst mixer is turning ?

lennyk,

See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15453.msg152196/topicseen.html#msg152196.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2012, 09:13:47 AM »
Lenny;
Testing that we have done over the years has shown that adding the water to the mixing bowl first will significantly shorten the total dough mixing time while making life a lot easier for your mixer at the same time. Also, you mention adding IDY to the water. This is probably not the best idea for optimum yeast performance as IDY is actually designed to be added dry, with the flour, or an alternative method for adding IDY is to first mix the ingredients until they come together and start forming a dough, then add the IDY to the dough mass and continue mixing for at least 5-minutes.
More recently we have looked at the claims that the outside weather influences the absorption properties of the dough. What we found was that when the oil was added to the water in the mixing bowl, it would float on top of the water, then when the flour was added, the flour would absorb some of the oil as opposed to water. Since flour does not contain any gluten, but only proteins, which when agitated in the presence of water forms "gluten", when these same proteins are agitated in the presence of oil, gluten is not formed (think of making a rue to thicken gravy). When we separated the oil from the water, buy adding the oil immediately after the dough had started to form, we got better hydration of the flour, complete gluten formation and much improved uniformity in dough performance when several doughs were made. Based on this, we now recommend that the oil be added to the dough after about 2-minutes of mixing, or as soon as you don't see any dry flour in the mixing bowl. If you use a plastic fat, such as butter or shortening, you can add it right along with the flour as this only applies to the use of oil in the dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 01:06:22 PM »
FWIW, my bread maker instructions recommend adding wet ingredients first and dry ingredients second.

Offline atom

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »
The way I do it:

Mix Water with IDY
add 1/3 to 1/2 of flour and then mix to develop gluten
mix salt and other dry ingredients in the other half of flour with wisk
if fats are used, dump in the bowl and then lightly mixed to spread throughout
dump in the rest of the dry ingredients and mix

I have my own theories and reasons of why I do it this way but it is probably more detailed then what is truly necessary. It's just the way my brain works and I do it without really thinking about it. I dont like dissolving the salt directly with the yeast although many people do and have results that are just fine. As said above mixing oil and fats with unmixed flour prevents gluten formation. Thats why I add it after some of it is already formed. It seems impossible to me to effectively add oil to a completley formed dough. Some people do and have good results, but in my brain parts of the dough will have more oil then others. If you are using a very small amount of oil though, I dont imagine this will matter all that much, and I usually use none.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 02:26:22 PM »
Atom;
Mixing the oil into the dough immediately after it comes together is not a problem when using a mixer, but is nearly impossible if mixing by hand. It normally takes about 4 to 5-minutes of machine mixing to achieve uniform distribution of ingredients throughout the dough. When making pastry, such as sweet dough, where the fat level is really up there, at 18% to 25% of the total flour weight you just can't develop the dough with that much fat if you were to mix it in right from the beginning, so it is normally added during the last 5-minutes, or so, of the mixing time with excellent results. If you want to see how your dough mixes in your mixer, just add a little yellow food coloring to the dough at various stages of mixing and see how long it actually takes t get a uniform dispersion of the coloring as indicated by the color of the dough. Unless your dough is just going for a free ride on the dough hook, you will be surprised at how well the mixer incorporates the ingredients.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Prefessa

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 04:08:53 PM »
Tom:

Not to Hijack the thread...but I am beginning to see a trend towards NOT doing an Autolyse in professional pizza making?? It seems from the General Mills Site its Liquids(Water and Liquid Malt if used) then drys(Flour, salt and sugar) then after several minutes of mixing Oil.

I have never seen anyone do the add 3/4 of the flour to the water mix and then let sit 30 minutes to autolyse then gradually add salt and the rest of the flour with mixing. Every video I have seen...water goes into the bowl, then a bag of flour, salt, sugar and IDY, then turn on the mixer and then add oil after all the flour is incorporated, but the dough is not yet developed.

So is Autolyse really needed when kneading is done by mechanical mixing??

Offline patdakat345

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 05:38:57 AM »
I'm in agreement with the side that doesn't autolyse. I use a Cuisinart processor, put in the drys first, pulse, then the liquids, pulse until it comes together and then add the oils.
Let it sit on the counter for about a half hour, refrigerate for a couple days.
Tried with liquid first, drys second and oils third. I saw no difference in blind testing. Not in taste or rise.

pat

Offline atom

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Re: Order of ingredients, dry first or water+idy ?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2012, 01:08:05 PM »
Quote
Unless your dough is just going for a free ride on the dough hook, you will be surprised at how well the mixer incorporates the ingredients.


Well there Tom you hit it right on the money! I speak from experience of having nothing but a C hook on my kitchenaid. I never even thought of you lucky folks who have a better mixer.