Author Topic: First dough help  (Read 2659 times)

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Offline pza_eater

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First dough help
« on: October 06, 2009, 05:33:28 PM »
I made my first dough with the following recipe.

King Arthur 27.63 oz
water (62%) 17.13oz ( I used the cold water from the fridge filter)
IDY .86 tsp
salt 2.8 tsp

dissolve salt in water
add flour and yeast with hook on speed 2 for ~ 2minutes
let sit for 15 minutes
final knead on speed 2 for ~4 minutes

Well I tried to take the dough out of the bowl and and it very gooey and unmanagable.  I had to add more flour so it wouldn't stick.  I finally managed to split it into 2 balls (gobs) and placed them into containers.

Now I know that my scale may not have been the most accurate. It is a 5# scale with 20 gram increments.  I weighed both the flour and water on the scale so it should not be too far off.

What caused this runny dough ball?  Did I not knead enough? I didn't take the temp of the dough but it was not warm coming out of the mixing bowl.

Thanks,
T


Online Pete-zza

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 05:43:01 PM »
pza_eater,

Based on what you have said, I think you may not have kneaded the dough long enough. I estimate that your dough batch weighs around 45.41 ounces, or about 2.84 pounds. If you are using a standard KitchenAid or similar mixer, a total of six minutes at speed 2 is not enough to completely hydrate the flour and that can result in a dough that is wet. Your scale could also be a problem.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 05:47:48 PM »
Did I not knead enough?

I agree with Peter. The issue with some mixers like a KA with C-hook is that the dough can spin around the bowl without being kneaded very much so measuring by time isn't always meaningful. You want to adjust the speed of the hook, the amount of dough, and the way in which you combine the different wet & dry ingredients so that the hook is actually kneading rather than just moving things around.


Offline pza_eater

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 08:52:05 PM »
Thanks for the tips.  I see that the original recipe called for a spiral hook and I was using the C hook.

I made another batch using the same measurements and ran the KA Artisan mixer at speed 2 for a longer time.  I was checking to see that the dough was getting action against the bottom and sides of the bowl. Total kneading time after the rest was a little more than 10 minutes.

The dough was a lot more manageable and was able to measure and divide without extra flour. I will be cold fermenting this batch until Friday.


Offline Trogdor33

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 03:50:45 PM »
Does anybody know if the spiral hook attachment will work on a standard size KA mixer?
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 04:06:49 PM »
Does anybody know if the spiral hook attachment will work on a standard size KA mixer?


Trogdor33,

My impression is that you can't just replace the C-hook with a spiral hook. However, some members have found ways to modify the spiral hook to work. For example, see Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8891.msg78961.html#msg78961.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 05:59:45 PM »
I noticed that for C-hook attachment machines, a good dough size to get the machine to actually "knead" is in the range of 1.65-3.3 lbs. For your 62% hydration dough, 11 minutes should be a good number. Are you using AP or Bread flour?

Saad

Offline pza_eater

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 05:25:06 PM »
I noticed that for C-hook attachment machines, a good dough size to get the machine to actually "knead" is in the range of 1.65-3.3 lbs. For your 62% hydration dough, 11 minutes should be a good number. Are you using AP or Bread flour?

Saad
My first attempt was AP. I am now using BF and will look to see if VWG is available at the local Publix.

I am still trying to get that nice fluffy crust. The air pockets in the crust are still very small.  Could it be because I am using a screen and not a stone?

T

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 10:14:37 PM »
Peter -

Glad somebody has reported that they made it work. As long as it fits on the machine I should be able to hack/grind my way to freedom from the wretched c-hook.

pza_eater -

Building on what Saad said, I have had the problems with the dough sticking to the hook and not really kneading using my 3lb dough recipe. The way I dealt with it was by splitting the dough in half once it started clinging to the hook and doing each piece for about a minute each on their own and then combining them again. After that it kneads much better. I haven't tried just giving the dough a little rest instead of splitting it, but I am curious as to whether that would help.

FWIW as far as your flour selection goes, I had been using KABF + VWG and just got myself a bag of sir lancelot. I would strongly recommend if you can find a source to try that, I just had my first sir lancelot pizza today and I about fell backwards. Here's how I found mine: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9464.0.html

-Joe
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Offline s00da

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 03:22:45 AM »
My first attempt was AP. I am now using BF and will look to see if VWG is available at the local Publix.

I am still trying to get that nice fluffy crust. The air pockets in the crust are still very small.  Could it be because I am using a screen and not a stone?

T

Your problem was really not lack of gluten in the flour. You said the dough comes out of the mixer "very gooey and unmanagable" which does not sound right for a 62% hydration dough, this is when Pete recommended increasing mixing/kneading time. Remember that the dryer the dough, the less kneading is needed and the opposite for wetter dough. Also mixing times will change increasingly with more gluten %. I recommend you stick to one flour type for a while so it would be easier to observe the dough behavior with less changing variables.

Regarding a the fluffy crust you are trying to achieve, there are many factors. Yes, if you bake your pizza on a screen and if you specifically press against the screen to stretch the dough, you will force most of the air out of the dough and end up with a non-fluffy pizza. Against if you stretch it carefully and preserve the bubbles in there. Also baking on a stone has more advantage due the higher thermal mass qualities. Much more heat is delivered when the pizza is first placed on the stone and gives a better oven-spring.

Saad
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 03:26:00 AM by s00da »


Offline s00da

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 03:28:37 AM »
Peter -

Glad somebody has reported that they made it work. As long as it fits on the machine I should be able to hack/grind my way to freedom from the wretched c-hook.

pza_eater -

Building on what Saad said, I have had the problems with the dough sticking to the hook and not really kneading using my 3lb dough recipe. The way I dealt with it was by splitting the dough in half once it started clinging to the hook and doing each piece for about a minute each on their own and then combining them again. After that it kneads much better. I haven't tried just giving the dough a little rest instead of splitting it, but I am curious as to whether that would help.

FWIW as far as your flour selection goes, I had been using KABF + VWG and just got myself a bag of sir lancelot. I would strongly recommend if you can find a source to try that, I just had my first sir lancelot pizza today and I about fell backwards. Here's how I found mine: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9464.0.html

-Joe


Sounds you have a larger mixing bowl than I do. My bowl capacity is 4.6 Litres. What's yours?

Saad

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 07:38:01 AM »
I have the standard 4.5qt KA
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Offline s00da

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 11:13:58 AM »
That's almost the same capacity. Then I suspect there might be some shape differences that makes the KA and kenwood (http://www.kenwoodchefmixer.co.uk/compare.html) mix differently at the same dough weight. I use speed 2 for my kneading. I assume you use the same? Because I know if I leave it at speed 1, it will take the dough forever until it loosens a little, get entangled and start kneading appropriately.

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 11:44:00 AM »
I start out at speed 2, but I usually crank it up to 4-6 and let it slap around for a while (trying to follow Tom Lehmann's mixing technique as best I can even though I have a much smaller mixer than the recipe was intended for). I have to keep my hands on the mixer or else it will try to jump off the counter.
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Offline s00da

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 04:11:56 PM »
wow, speed 4-6? For how long?

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 05:31:59 PM »
I don't have a set amount of time. I take it out every few minutes and shape it into a ball to see whether it has the right feel. Not very scientific, I know.
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Offline s00da

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Re: First dough help
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 05:35:17 PM »
Actually I think this is the best way to do it. Eventhough I don't  :-D but I do believe that you develop a skill with this method so you can identify a well kneaded dough regardless of the recipe or %'s.


 

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