Author Topic: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?  (Read 7523 times)

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Offline siouxerbrewer

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Hello I am new to this forum.  I love to eat pizza but I don't have much experience making it.  I have made quite a few trial and error mistakes making pizza so far and am going to try the America's Test Kitchen NY pizza recipe next.  Does anybody have any experience with this recipe/method?  I'm learning that dough hydration and composition is extremely important with correlation to cooking temperatures and times.


buceriasdon

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 09:58:04 PM »
Stop, Erase that site from your favorites. Cooks Illustrated, and it is a Cook's Illustrated internet idiotic incorrect recipe using  measurements that are not correct. One cup of flour is not over five ounces >:( Just forget you ever stumbled upon that abomination of a recipe. The same recipe is on Slice who also insists on using the wrong weight for one cup flour. Shame on you Slice, prove to me one cup of flour is five and a half ounces unless you sift and pack.Yea, I've done that and it's the only way one cup equals five and a half ounces. Ok, I'm feeling much better now... Breath deep.....exhale. :D Really you will be better off to try the many well thought out recipes on this site. Buy a 20 dollar digital scale if you don't have one and you're good to go. You'll thank me later.
Don
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 10:08:34 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 10:10:22 PM »
Don,

If you look at the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, you will see that if you use the Heavy flour measurement method, you can end up with a cup of flour that weighs over 5 ounces. However, to get that result, you have to repeatedly transfer flour from its container into the measuring cup and strike the cup on the work surface so that the flour compacts after each flour addition. Then you level off the top of the cup. I don't think that this is what Cook's Illustrated has in mind.

Peter

Offline siouxerbrewer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 10:33:41 PM »
Wow that was quite a spirited response.  Are we talking about the same recipe?  I should have posted the link to the video that I was referring to: http://www.americastestkitchen.com/recipes/detail.php?docid=26804 From what I wrote down they call for 16.5 oz (I assume by weight?) of bread flour.  Once I get back home to my kitchen (next month) I'll have access to my kitchen scale again and I'm discovering that measurements by weight is CRITICAL when making pizza dough.  For now I'll have to use volume based measurements.  I tried the cast iron/broiler method but I think the dough was too wet and subsequently didn't brown by the time the toppings were cooked.  That being said; is it possible to make really good pizza at 500f?  It seems like everybody in the pizza forums cooks them in an 800f + oven with an elaborate cooking setup (LBE, Pizzaforge etc...).

buceriasdon

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 10:34:24 PM »
Peter, that's exactly my point. No where, and I mean no where does Cooks Illustrated or Slice say how they arrived at such a heavy measurement in their recipe. The only way to arrive at that weight is by packing and by not explaining that it creates problems for people who don't have a grasp(as our newbie) of the results of incorrect hydration. Then they come here and say "I don't understand why my dough is so sticky and hard to work with". Well, duh!! You didn't pack your flour. That's not their fault! They don't know any better and these sites do nothing to help them with an explanation of how they arrived at such a measurement. Sorry, but I find such laziness to be inexcusable.
 Don

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 10:53:35 PM »
Don, my mom taught me to measure flour by scooping it up and leaving a big mound on top then taking a knife and cutting into the flour, down to the bottom and all the way across of the measuring cup a couple times, then use the back of the knife to level off the top of the cup. When I measure KABF or AP this way, I get about 155g or 5.5oz.
Pizza is not bread.



Offline siouxerbrewer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 01:11:24 AM »
Strange it made me register but it didn't make me pay for it.  I see now that they call three cups of bread flour 16.5 oz by weight.  I'll giver a try and report back next week some time.  Will probably use my sourdough starter and do a cold ferment.  They sure make it look good in the video.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 08:17:39 AM »
Don, my mom taught me to measure flour by scooping it up and leaving a big mound on top then taking a knife and cutting into the flour, down to the bottom and all the way across of the measuring cup a couple times, then use the back of the knife to level off the top of the cup. When I measure KABF or AP this way, I get about 155g or 5.5oz.

Craig,

You are correct that you can get over 5 ounces of KABF for a cup of flour measured out volumetrically as you noted. In my post to Don, I used the worst case conversion in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

As the post at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15122.msg149509/topicseen.html#msg149509 notes, the method you use is often called the "dip & level" method. That was the standard measuring method at General Mills up until October, 1989. GM used to have a Heritage page at its website that noted the change but GM recently re-did its website and got rid of the Heritage page. However, I found it this morning at the Wayback Machine, at http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx.

From October, 1989, the standard measuring method has been what is called the "spoon & level" method, which is the same as the Textbook method in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator. That method entails repeatedly lifting flour from a container into a measuring cup to the point of overfilling and then leveling off the cup. As noted in the above post, that is the method that King Arthur also recommends. However, if I were to guess, I would say that most people still use the dip & level method. I know of almost no one who measures out flour using the spoon & level method. So, whenever I use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator, for example, to convert a recipe stated in volume measurements to a baker's percent format, and the recipe does not say how the flour should be measured out (which is just about never), I use the Medium flour Measurement Method as my default method. In your case, to get over 5 ounces for a cup of KABF measured out volumetrically using the dip & level method, you would need to use the Medium x2 method in the Mixed-Mass Conversion Calculator, which adds shaking to the scooping.

As noted in Reply 5 cited above, the Mixed-Mass Conversion Calculator was created by member November after he and I had conducted literally hundreds of weighings of flour samples using whatever flours we had on hand and several different measuring cup sizes. The tool still isn't perfect but it is the best we have on this forum. That tool was designed specifically for people who do not have scales or choose not to use them for some reason. I suspect that most people do not use that tool because it is not the easiest tool to navigate, especially for those who do not have some technical skills. Fortunately, we have had pretty good success convincing our members who are serious about their pizza making to invest in good digital scales.

Peter



Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 09:35:15 AM »
Wow that was quite a spirited response.  Are we talking about the same recipe?  I should have posted the link to the video that I was referring to: http://www.americastestkitchen.com/recipes/detail.php?docid=26804 From what I wrote down they call for 16.5 oz (I assume by weight?) of bread flour.  Once I get back home to my kitchen (next month) I'll have access to my kitchen scale again and I'm discovering that measurements by weight is CRITICAL when making pizza dough.  For now I'll have to use volume based measurements.  I tried the cast iron/broiler method but I think the dough was too wet and subsequently didn't brown by the time the toppings were cooked.  That being said; is it possible to make really good pizza at 500f?  It seems like everybody in the pizza forums cooks them in an 800f + oven with an elaborate cooking setup (LBE, Pizzaforge etc...).

Just to answer your question re temperature:  you can certainly make pizza in a 500-degree oven.  Even without a stone, you can get something you can eat.  But with a stone, and some work to achieve higher temperatures, you can make pizza that will blow your mind. 
    800+ is for Neapolitan style pizza.  There's many other kinds. What you prefer is a matter of what appeals to you.  Initially, you could look up the varieties of Sicilian style, for example New England Bar style, pan pizza, etc.  They are well-suited for 500.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 10:02:33 AM »
Strange it made me register but it didn't make me pay for it.  I see now that they call three cups of bread flour 16.5 oz by weight.  I'll giver a try and report back next week some time.  Will probably use my sourdough starter and do a cold ferment.  They sure make it look good in the video.

Sorry. My bad.
Pizza is not bread.

buceriasdon

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 10:32:11 AM »
Actually, It's most likely a fine recipe. My complaint remains the same. They do not explain to Happy Homemaker how to make one cup equal 5.5 ounces. If Happy Homemaker gets the water right but not 5.5 ouces of flour right then they could be lacking three or more ounces of needed flour to make a workable dough for Happy Homemakers. That's all I'm trying to point out.  :-[
Don

Offline petef

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 11:14:07 AM »
Actually, It's most likely a fine recipe. My complaint remains the same. They do not explain to Happy Homemaker how to make one cup equal 5.5 ounces. If Happy Homemaker gets the water right but not 5.5 ouces of flour right then they could be lacking three or more ounces of needed flour to make a workable dough for Happy Homemakers. That's all I'm trying to point out.  :-[
Don

Good point! America's Test Kitchen is one of my favorite cooking shows. They are normally very precise and science oriented. I'm thinking they need to be aware of your concerns. Just now I went to their website and Emailed them about this issue, including a link to this thread. Hopefully I'll get a response and post it here.

---pete---

Offline siouxerbrewer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 04:29:36 PM »
Just to answer your question re temperature:  you can certainly make pizza in a 500-degree oven.  Even without a stone, you can get something you can eat.  But with a stone, and some work to achieve higher temperatures, you can make pizza that will blow your mind. 
    800+ is for Neapolitan style pizza.  There's many other kinds. What you prefer is a matter of what appeals to you.  Initially, you could look up the varieties of Sicilian style, for example New England Bar style, pan pizza, etc.  They are well-suited for 500.
That is really good to know.  I think I'm going to try the test kitchen pizza on my cast iron skillet for now (no pizza stone) and will report back.  Actually one of my favorite every day pizzas is Papa Johns.  Do you know of a recipe that might get close to that?  I actually like the chewy/leathery crust.  That being said I think Pizza Port makes my absolute favorite pies but I can only get them while I'm out here in CA.

As far as the America's Test Kitchen recipe goes, I'm surprised that they did not give measurements by weight given their typical methodology.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 04:49:34 PM »
Actually one of my favorite every day pizzas is Papa Johns.  Do you know of a recipe that might get close to that?  I actually like the chewy/leathery crust.

siouxerbrewer,

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html and the related thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.0.html.

Peter

Offline siouxerbrewer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2012, 05:24:01 PM »

buceriasdon

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »

As far as the America's Test Kitchen recipe goes, I'm surprised that they did not give measurements by weight given their typical methodology.

They do have the weights called out for flour and water. 16.5 ounces Flour, About(their words) 10.5 ouces water which gives a hydration ratio of 63.6% a fairly sticky dough. A mismeasurement with flour, not getting 5.5 ounces to a cup will produce an even more sticky dough, one that for beginners may lead to great frustration using volume measurements.
Don











Offline siouxerbrewer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2012, 01:06:19 AM »
I tried making this pizza tonight and it turned out pretty good.  The dough was VERY wet and sticky but wasn't too bad to work with (I followed Jeff Varasano's methods for working with highly hydrated dough).  The food processor made quick work of kneading the dough, but I finished kneading it by hand for a few minutes and that worked well.  The problem that I ran into was the toppings were starting to burn before the crust had browned.  I'm not sure how to remedy this issue.  I moved the pizza stone lower in the oven for the second pie but that didn't seem to help.  Will lowering the hydration level of the dough help with this issue?  There were areas on the bottom of the dough that were nice and crisp but the rim of the pizza was BARELY starting to brown before I had to remove the pie.  I really liked the sauce recipe too!  Hoping to nail this recipe down.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Hello and has anybody tried the Americas Test Kitchen NY pizza?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2012, 09:35:09 AM »
What were your toppings?  Did you refrigerate the cheese before loading?  Use cubed instead of shredded?  Really makes a difference.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.