Author Topic: Secrets of your recipe or technique  (Read 12206 times)

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Offline itsinthesauce

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Re:Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2004, 04:18:45 PM »
Guys, I'm trying something different, at least for me. Just made three batches of dough, one has 3 cups of flour and one cup of wheat flour. Has anyone tried this?

There's a great pizza place on the South Side of Chicago....Vito and Nick's...benn around forever. I saw them rolling out their dough and it had a brownish color to it, so I figured it has to be wheat flour added.

Any thoughts?

Merry Christmas to all. I'll leave Santa some pizza.


Offline Lars

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Re:Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2004, 05:05:44 PM »
I've made pizza dough using part WW flour and didn't really like it, but that's a personal preference.  To me, it messes up the texture.  I did find that adding a bit of finely ground semolina flour gave me a texture that I liked better, but this was more noticeable in a thicker crust than in a thin one.

Offline pftaylor

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Re:Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2004, 01:16:42 PM »
Petezza,
Thanks for trying my family recipe. Your kind words were much appreciated. Your are right about the dough being a little wet, I guess I use some extra flour to dry it when hand kneading. It all seems to be part of the process.

Santa left a Kitchen-Aid Artisan mixer under the tree so I will now be able to try high-gluten recipes. I ordered Lancelot flour and am patiently waiting for delivery. Of course, I will enhance with Malted Milk powder.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2005, 03:35:23 PM »
I have been experimenting lately with pftaylor's all-purpose flour family recipe for making a same-day dough for a NY style pizza. To achieve the same results (i.e., flavor, texture, color, etc.) as using a high-gluten flour and a long fermentation period, for example, 24 hours or more, means having to effectively trick the all-purpose dough into believing that it is really high-gluten dough with some age under its belt. That's a tough order to fill.

After calculating the baker's percents for rftaylor's original recipe, and making some other changes to allow me to make a pizza dough ball with a weight (around 20 oz) sufficient to make a single 16-inch pizza, I came up with the following dough formulation:

11.95 oz. (100%) all-purpose flour (about 2 7/8 c.)
7.55 oz. (63%) warm (around 100 degrees F) water (a bit more than 7/8 c.)
0.20 oz. (1.74%) Carnation Original malted milk powder (about 2 1/2 t.)
0.75 oz. (0.62%) Kosher salt (about 1/2 t.)
0.18 oz. (1.5%) olive oil (about 1 t.)
0.04 IDY (0.34%) (about 3/8 t.)

The major changes I made to the original recipe were to reduce the hydration percentage from over 70% to 63%, substitute IDY for cake yeast, reduce the amount of olive oil to just 1 t., and to scale the quantities of the ingredients used to achieve a roughly 20 oz. dough ball weight. It will be noted that in the rftaylor recipe, the olive oil is not mixed in with the other dough ingredients, as is commonly done with a NY style pizza dough. Instead, it is used to coat the dough ball just before it goes into a slightly preheated oven. In my case, I used only a single teaspoon since I concluded that the calculated amount of almost 5 teaspoons based on the original recipe would have been too much, even though much of it might have remained in the bowl when I removed the dough after it had risen.

I prepared the dough using a food processor. I combined the dry ingredients in the processor bowl and then gradually added the warm water and pulsed it in until a dough ball formed between the blade and the sides of the bowl, about 2 minutes. I then pulsed in the olive oil for about another minute. I oiled the dough and placed it in a bowl (uncovered) and then into the slightly preheated oven. As another departure from the original recipe, I placed a glass Pyrex measuring cup of water that I had brought to a boil into the oven alongside the bowl of dough to provide some added moisture for the dough. After the dough had risen for about 2 hours, I punched the dough down again but this time I put the dough into my proofing box (set at the same temperature as the oven compartment) so that I would have the oven available to preheat, along with my pizza stone, for the final hour in preparation for baking, as the dough was rising for the second time (for 1 more hour).

When the dough came out of the proofing box, I shaped it into a 16-inch round and placed it onto a 16-inch pizza screen. The dough was very extensible but shaped and stretched easily. I attribute the high degree of extensibility to the high-temperature (around 100-110 degrees F) and high-humidity environment to which the dough was exposed for a period of 3 hours. I dressed the pizza in a simple tomato and cheese style and baked it on the pizza screen on an upper oven rack for around 7-8 minutes, following which I slid the pizza onto the pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack) for about another 2-3 minutes to achieve increased top and bottom browning.

The photos below show the finished product. The taste and texture of the crust was quite good, and exhibited all of the physical characteristics of a typical NY style pizza (limpness, flexibility, etc.), but I am not prepared to say that it is the equal of a crust made from a high-gluten flour, with its more developed and denser gluten structure, and that has developed a much fuller range of flavor-enhancing fermentation byproducts as a result of the much longer (and cooler) fermentation period. It is possible that the very high-temperature baking system used by pftaylor for his recipe makes up for some of this, but it seems to me that it is hard to rush the process (going from, say, 24 hours to 3 hours) and achieve the same results. There may be other ways of trying to trick the all-purpose dough into thinking it is a high-gluten dough and, along these lines, I am thinking of using vital wheat gluten to at least achieve a protein content that is closer to high-gluten flour. I do know from past experiments that it is difficult to use far above-average temperatures (water or ambient) and high moisture to make a good same-day dough based on either bread flour or high-gluten flour. So, those nagging doubts remain.

I welcome any comments or ideas that jftaylor may have based on his experiences and seeing the modifications I made to his recipe, and particularly so since he has recently had an opportunity to try the KASL high-gluten flour in a NY style pizza dough.

Peter


« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 03:42:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2005, 10:15:26 AM »
Pete-zza,
I am in awe of your pizza making skills and articulate use of the English language. Your posts so clearly describe your artisan efforts, I repeatedly find myself standing beside you as you describe your creations.

Frankly, I have come to recognize you as being the gold standard by which I strive to humbly assemble great tasting pies at home. While there are times I can identify with some of your experiences, you inevitably add a tangential perspective, that something extra which an untrained eye would never catch, that transforms your efforts from mere cooking to a heart-felt passion. In summary, your knowledge and manner of pizza making are at a level which I know little or nothing about.

To answer your question about my family recipe, I sense that you have milked every last drop of improvement you have at your disposal. I doubt there is much left to improve unless you buy an oven that can increase the temperature by a few hundred degrees. The difference between what I am able to achieve at 800 or so degrees however, will not likely address all your issues. I am comtemplating one ingredient change which might be interesting. A shift from all-purpose flour to 00 flour. I will report back on this when I pick up the 00 in the coming days.

My latest pizza making efforts have been centered around trying to recreate what I consider to be the best tasting pie in the world; Patsy's Pizza.

So far I have not been able to find a crust recipe, including my family's, which I could truthfully say exhibits all the properties of Patsy's. More recently, I have experimented with Steve's recipe as well as your modified Lehmann. Results have been encouraging and perhaps through thoughtful experimentation, I can finally get there. My family's recipe is at one end of the spectrum in terms of being overly light and nearly crackerish but with great taste while Steve's and your modified Lehmann is almost too thick, heavy, chewy, bubbly and leather like on the bottom (like NY street pizza) and I find myself almost tearing and ripping at the crust with my teeth. I have however been increasingly successful with thinning out the dough for your recipe and as of last night was able to stretch out a 16" pie from a dough ball weighing 13.4 ounces (previously I used a 20 ounce ball). Patsy's is still somewhere inbetween and exhibits the best of both. A harmonious and perfect balance of chewey, thin and airey-light crust which allows the sauce and cheese to contribute in a complimentary rather than a competitive way.

I have identifed another gap I am trying to close. It is even more important to me than crust texture but perhaps directly related somehow. I simply don't know how to approach the issue so like a poor marksman, I continue missing the target badly. The gap is I can eat a whole Patsy's pie and not feel bloated. I feel refreshed and remarkably well balanced afterward. Grimaldi's and some of the other classic pie shops in NY are close in this respect. I can eat nearly a whole pie of my family's recipe, but only eat a few slices of the other recipes mentioned above before I feel like I've consumed an anvil (the 13.4oz ball did help so this comment refers more to a 20oz 16" pie).

The macro-nutrient composition of food is where I think the answer may lie. My sense is that Patsy's recipe is more balanced in terms of carbohydrate to protein ratios than the home recipes mentioned above. I know that when I eat a high carbohydrate meal, I feel stuffed at first, then drowsy and sleepy. However, when I consume a meal with only slightly more carbohydrate than protein, I feel refreshed and satiated but not bloated.

In a few weeks when I get a delivery of Patsy pies I will be able to examine this angle more fully.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:10:15 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2005, 12:48:09 PM »
pftaylor,

I don't know what to say.  I am flattered by your comments.  All I have tried to do is to take the name of this forum, "pizzamaking" seriously--and to try to assist others in "making pizzas".  Unfortunately, all I have at my disposal to do this at the forum is words and pictures.  The hardest part is doing this without spell check :).

I'll be interested in hearing of your results using 00 flour.  As you may know, some time ago I started a thread devoted to trying to reverse-engineer the pizzas of another famous pizza establishment, DiFara's, in Brooklyn (and now in a Manhattan location under another name).  The DiFara dough is a combination of 00 flour (Delverde) and high-gluten flour (I believe it is All Trumps).  You might find some ideas on that thread, at http://forum.pizzamaking.com/index.php?topic=504.0, to help you in your efforts. 

BTW, it is not necessary to use the Lehmann NY style dough recipe to make a single pizza.  In fact, when I first made the Lehmann dough I made two pizzas out of it.  The dough ball weighed around 26 ounces and I believe I made two 12-14 inch pizzas out of it.  I posted the recipe at a thread that was directed to sourdough pizzas, at Reply #4, at http://forum.pizzamaking.com/index.php?topic=528.msg4616#msg4616.  I described the recipe in depth to help my daughter-in-law who was just starting to make pizzas on her own.   I no longer use the windowpane test (although it still works) and I don't always use an autolyse period.  I also maybe don't knead quite as much as I used to.  Otherwise the recipe is the same.   When I subsequently did a lot more work on the Lehmann recipe, I went with the traditional NY pizza size (16-in.) and dough ball weights (20-26 oz.) and then worked down to smaller sizes to accommodate diferent home situations and pizza making equipment.

Your complaints about fullness from eating pizza is a common one.  The chief pizza maker at Naples 45 in NYC once told me that his pizzas, made with 00 flour, were free of that problem.  It seemed to be a combination of the way flours are milled in the U.S. and possibly the higher protein content, especially for the high-gluten flours.   I don't know what kinds of flours Patsy's uses.

I believe you are correct about the protein-carbohydrate balance.  Carbohydrates are known to be sleep-inducing in some people.  They increase the seratonin levels in the brain which, in turn, induces sleep.  That's one of the reasons why it is often recommended that one eat a cracker or a piece of bread before going to bed to help induce sleep.  Eating too much carbohydrates and not enough protein can also affect the way insulin is used in the body and make you sleepy.  Proteins, on the other hand, can have the opposite effect on some people and keep them awake. 

Peter

 



« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 12:52:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Trinity

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2005, 12:58:27 PM »
My latest pie! :)

It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2005, 01:11:38 PM »
trin,

That's a nice looking pie. Can you tell us what kind of recipe you used and how you made the pizza? Also, did it use Carnation malted milk?

Peter

Offline Steve

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2005, 01:25:15 PM »
I just made two identical doughs, except one has 1 Tbsp Carnation Malted Milk Powder added. Should make an interesting side-by-side comparison. 8)

Using my standard NY style dough recipe (1 pound high-gluten flour, 10 oz. water, 1 tsp salt, 1 tsp instant yeast). Will post results (and pictures) tonight. As you've probably guessed, I'm not using an overnight rise. ;)
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Offline DKM

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2005, 02:47:49 PM »
As you've probably guessed, I'm not using an overnight rise. ;)

I found a 5 hour counter rise to be great for NY Style.  Just don't let it fall.

DKM
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2005, 04:01:34 PM »
DKM,

How does the 5-hour rise NY style pizza compare with one that uses dough that has had an overnight stay in the refrigerator? I assume you use high-gluten flour. Is that correct?

Peter

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2005, 12:02:50 PM »
Pete-zza,
I tried to buy Caputo 00 flour yesterday at Mazzaros Italian market and they were out. The staff didn't seem to know if and when any would ever be in stock again. All they knew was their 00 flour "came from Chicago". Any thoughts on where to buy smaller quantities of Caputo flour than 50lbs?
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Offline DKM

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2005, 12:33:33 PM »
DKM,

How does the 5-hour rise NY style pizza compare with one that uses dough that has had an overnight stay in the refrigerator? I assume you use high-gluten flour. Is that correct?

I found it have very good flavor, and it was a very easy dough to work with.  That being said, I tend to have an active, humid, and warm kitchen when i'm home cooking.  Still need to try adding the malt powder.

DKM
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2005, 01:05:31 PM »
jftaylor,

I'm surprised that Mazzaro's ever carried the Caputo 00 flour to begin with.  Are you sure it is the Caputo brand? If their flour came from Chicago, I suspect it is a distributor of the flour in the mid-west.  One importer/distributor of 00 flour (Pellegrino brand) that I am aware of in the Chicago area is Isola, at http://www.isolaimports.com/cat.asp?c=138.

In the NY area, one of the importers/distributors of the Caputo flours is Orlando Food Sales, in NJ (at http://www.orlandofoods.com).  Some time ago, I spoke to a fellow there by the name of Fred Mortati (1-201-368-9197).  One of his good customers is Naples 45 in NYC that uses both the Caputo 0 and 00 flours.  My contact there, the chief pizza maker, gave me samples of both flours when I was last in NYC to try out in my home setting.  He said that he was having problems getting enough of the flour himself.  You might want to call Fred Mortati and ask him if there is someone in your area that carries the Caputo flours.  He might also be able to give you the name of some pizza operators in your area that use the Caputo 00 flour, and from whom you may be able to buy several pounds. When I last spoke with him, he mentioned a pizza operator in the Pittsburgh area that he thought was one of the best in the country, so he may have a name of another happy client in the Tampa Bay area.  

At the retail level, one place that sells the Caputo 00 flour is chefswarehouse, at http://www.chefswarehouse.com (look under Baking and Flours).  Unfortunately, it comes only in a 25 kilo size, at a cost of $49.50, plus $26.50 shipping, for a total of $72.40.   A couple of days ago I went to their website and bought a 10-pack case (ten 2.2-lb. bags) of the Bel Aria 00 flour, my favorite 00 flour so far (I haven't yet tried the Caputo flours from my friend at Naples 45), for just under $25, including shipping.  I just couldn't handle 25 kilos.

A fellow forum member, ilpizzaiolo, has indicated in the past (see Reply #19, at http://forum.pizzamaking.com/index.php?topic=486.msg5557#msg5557) that he gets the Caputo 00 flour from PennMac (at http://www.pennmac.com, 1-800-223-5928 or 412-471-8330).  I have the PennMac catalog and the Caputo 00 flour is not listed, but if you call PennMac and ask for Rose, she will be able to give you the scoop. 

There is also a distributor in Springfield, VA by the name of International Gourmet Foods (703-569-4520, no website) that sells the Caputo 00 flour but you will not be able to buy direct.  When I called to inquire I was told that I could get it if I worked through someone in the business.  Again, I believe the size of the bag is 25 kilos.

You might find the Caputo italian website of interest.  It is at http://www.molinocaputo.it/#.  You will note that there is an icon @Contact at the site by which to send emails.  If there is someone in your family who is conversant in Italian you might be able to pose a few questions to them to identify Caputo distributors in your area if you can't locate one otherwise.  They might even be able to give you a good recipe for using their 00 flours to make pizza.

I wish you luck.

Peter

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 02:30:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline canadianbacon

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Re:Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2005, 03:57:13 PM »
Hi there, I would LOVE to see how you made this stuffed pizza ! - oh my gosh itlooks great !

I have tried my hand at calzone but never had much luck, .... the ones in Montreal I tasted 20 years ago, they put
into oil......... yeah they deep fry them..... it's just a folded pizza.... closed well and then into the fryer for a few minutes,
it was amazing....

is this just a folded over pizza ? ... I don't think so... it looks like there's more to it .... hmm.... yum !

Mark


Here's a great one of my son's stuffed pizza.
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Offline itsinthesauce

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2005, 08:13:26 PM »
Mark, I'll try my best to describe how he does it. He prepares it as you would any deep dish, but places another THIN crust over the ingredients, then adds more sauce and cheese. He also rolls cheese into the bottom crust, around the rim and folds it over. Ahh kids. It really is awsome.

We're planning another 'Super Bowl" party. 4 kids making 4 styles, 16 in all. I referee. It's a real blast...I'll try to take some good pictures.

Offline Barry

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Re: Secrets of your recipe or technique
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2005, 10:30:34 AM »
Hi Everyone,

I recently discovered that both of my favourite Pizzarias include sesame seeds as well as poppy seeds in their dough recipes.

I tried it in the latest Lehmann recipe, and it really added a great nutty flavour to the final product.

The Baker's percentages that are used are:

1. Sesame seeds   0.4%
2. Poppy seeds    0.2%

Kind regards.

Barry

ps. I have really enjoyed reading the older threads.



 

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