Author Topic: Kenji likes the baking steel (Read 8408 times)

Pappy · « **Reply #40 on:** August 30, 2012, 01:15:25 PM »

I think this product has been mentioned before on another thread, but it is worth bringing up again:

http://www.amazon.com/Cadco-CAP-H-Half-Pizza-Plate/dp/B003TSTBA0/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1296668887&sr=8-2-fkmr2

Dimensions are right, tho only 1/4 inch thick. Nonstick aluminized steel alloy, weighs only 8 1/2 pounds. Claims a 4-5 minute bake in the Cadco convection oven, which only gets to 500 degrees according to posted stats. Priced decent at $60.50. I may purchase one. If it does what it says it does, the baking steel thingamajig is already obsolete.

scott123 · « **Reply #41 on:** August 30, 2012, 01:24:33 PM »

Quote from: pizzaneer on August 30, 2012, 01:00:47 PM

IDK about the oreo adhesive... why not use something that has been already used for the application? Simple is better...

What appeals to me most about my untested food options is food safety. I know that the thermal compound should never come in contact in with food, but I'd feel more comfortable if it was food safe. Here's what's in graphite adhesive:

http://ceramaterials.com/images/MSDS_-Graphite_Adhesive.pdf

Btw, I crunched the numbers for 1/8" steel and 3/4" cordierite and, at 16" it's 14 lb lb. lighter than 1/2" steel (22 lb. vs. 36 lb.) but, for the light-ish weight Axner stone, it's got slightly less heat capacity (276K joules for 1/2" vs. 222K for the combo). It won't be quite as light (31 lb. for the combo) or as inexpensive, but I think 1/4" steel is the way to go. Either that or maybe a (hopefully) denser cordierite-mullite shelf.

scott123 · « **Reply #42 on:** August 30, 2012, 01:34:30 PM »

Quote from: Jet_deck on August 30, 2012, 01:06:40 PM

What happened to the guy that used to be here that made the kiln shelves?

He didn't stick around. Here today, cone tomorrow

scott123 · « **Reply #43 on:** August 30, 2012, 01:40:37 PM »

Quote from: Pappy on August 30, 2012, 01:15:25 PM

I think this product has been mentioned before on another thread...

This is what Ron (Meatballs) is using:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12887.msg191547.html#msg191547

He only gets reasonable bake times, though, by stacking. I think that 4-5 minute bake time claim is a bit off. Or, at least, it hinges completely on convection. A hearth with this little thermal mass has to rely on heat from the bake element during the bake. Without convection, the heat doesn't feed fast enough.

I still wouldn't completely trust it, though, even with convection.

Stacking, sure, but once you get into stacking, I think the price becomes less competitive.

Essen1 · « **Reply #44 on:** August 30, 2012, 01:44:44 PM »

This an interesting thread. I'm anxious to see where it goes.

I've had good results with both, a kiln shelf and a steel plate, and combining those two may just end up in the ultimate baking surface for home ovens.

scott123 · « **Reply #45 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:05:07 PM »

The other aspect of graphite adhesive that just occurred to me is permanence. While a 1/4" steel/3/4" cordierite combo is, at 31 lb., not that much lighter than 1/2" steel, you're basically talking about 2 stones that are each half that. If the stones aren't connected, they should be far easier to remove from the oven.

Silicon carbide has a massive edge in the stacking scenario as well. From what I understand, it's always manufactured using a dry press process, making it exceptionally flat. Because of it's extreme conductivity, you could combine 5/8" with 1/8" steel, end up with a low-ish heat capacity payload (206K joules), but have a much more effective heat transfer, resulting in something very 1/2"ish. It would also pre-heat in no time. The only downside is the combined price tag of $120-ish.

MightyPizzaOven · « **Reply #46 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:12:36 PM »

Quote from: scott123 on August 30, 2012, 12:46:45 PM

I'm going to see if they'll test their shelves for heavy metals before I commit to buying anything, but it's a long shot.

Scott, If these shelves were not inteded for food service they may not have done any test. Any Chineese pizza stones manufacturer who sold to US they should have a certifcate indicating they comply with FDA.

MightyPizzaOven · « **Reply #47 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:15:50 PM »

How hot the 1/2" steel plate get? and how long it takes to reach taht temp?

pizzaneer · « **Reply #48 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:17:05 PM »

Scott, I get your point re easier to handle stacked pcs. And conduction, and food safety.

Well, that pretty much makes the commercial opportunity I had brief fantasies about fly away...

unless bolted-together but still lightweight has any merit, or even some merit

scott123 · « **Reply #49 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:32:23 PM »

Quote from: MightyPizzaOven on August 30, 2012, 02:15:50 PM

How hot the 1/2" steel plate get? and how long it takes to reach taht temp?

Steel plate gets no hotter than any other hearth material. It just has the ability to store more heat, because of it's mass, and transfer that heat more quickly than most materials, because of it's conductivity, producing shorter bake times.

It depends on the oven, but I'd say that most 1/2" steel plate owners preheat their plates in under 70 minutes.

scott123 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 30, 2012, 02:43:59 PM »

Quote from: pizzaneer on August 30, 2012, 02:17:05 PM

Scott, I get your point re easier to handle stacked pcs. And conduction, and food safety.

Well, that pretty much makes the commercial opportunity I had brief fantasies about fly away...

Keep fantasizing Brian (and everyone else). It depends on what time of the day you ask me, but right now, I'm not really feeling silicon carbide. At least not on it's own. I might be able to eventually source a $150ish 16 x 16 x 1" shelf, and, at an inch, it should have plenty of thermal mass, but... $150 isn't all that viable.

I don't know, if $150 SiC can bring all those anemic 500 deg. oven folks into the fold, it might be worth it, but I don't think SiC will be the next big thing.

The next solution is most likely going to be stacking. We need all the brainstorming we can get.

There's something really appealing to me about the moist nature of CPU thermal compound. The problem is, though, that there's very few liquids that can survive 600. That's why I keep going back to something tin based. When the tin melts, it fills all the nooks and crannies.

Essen1 · « **Reply #51 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:16:17 PM »

Quote from: scott123 on August 30, 2012, 02:43:59 PM

We need all the brainstorming we can get.

Scotty,

I'm thinking of doing a little experiment with stacking steel & kiln on the weekend. But which staking order is the better one...steel on the bottom, kiln on top or the other way around?

pizzaneer · « **Reply #52 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:29:35 PM »

I vote for steel on top.

What are your oven specs? What are your steel and stone specs?

If you like the results, and the combined weight is not too much, would you consider using an adhesive to fasten them together? Such as this one: http://shop.vitcas.com/vitcas-heat-resistant-sealant-1250-c-70-p.asp

Essen1 · « **Reply #53 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:32:24 PM »

Quote from: pizzaneer on August 30, 2012, 03:29:35 PM

I vote for steel on top.

What are your oven specs? What are your steel and stone specs?

If you like the results, and the combined weight is not too much, would you consider using an adhesive to fasten them together? Such as this one: http://shop.vitcas.com/vitcas-heat-resistant-sealant-1250-c-70-p.asp

Pizzaneer,

Steel's 18"x 18"x 1/4" and the kiln shelf is 17"x 17"x 5/8". They both fit the oven nicely. Oven goes to 550°F with a calibration option of 35°F up, which I use currently.

I'm more concerned whether my rack can handle the both weights, though.

I would consider the adhesive if the results blow me away.

pizzaneer · « **Reply #54 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:41:54 PM »

Good specs - any idea what the weight of your stone and steel is? Got a bathroom scale handy?

1st experiment: use the oven as you normally do. Note any differences observed- leave the pizza in your normal amount of time! Don't rescue it even if it looks like it's on fire! Just time the burn!
2nd: drop the oven mod and see if the stack can reproduce or better your current results without it.

thanks
Brian

Essen1 · « **Reply #55 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:54:00 PM »

Quote from: pizzaneer on August 30, 2012, 03:41:54 PM

Good specs - any idea what the weight of your stone and steel is? Got a bathroom scale handy?

1st experiment: use the oven as you normally do. Note any differences observed- leave the pizza in your normal amount of time! Don't rescue it even if it looks like it's on fire! Just time the burn!
2nd: drop the oven mod and see if the stack can reproduce or better your current results without it.

thanks
Brian

Brian,

I have to weigh them when I get home. Currently at work. But I'll let you know.

scott123 · « **Reply #56 on:** August 30, 2012, 04:41:52 PM »

Quote from: Essen1 on August 30, 2012, 03:16:17 PM

Scotty,

I'm thinking of doing a little experiment with stacking steel & kiln on the weekend. But which staking order is the better one...steel on the bottom, kiln on top or the other way around?

Mike, other than possibly stress out your oven shelves, stacking wouldn't do anything for your setup. The goal for stacking is to recreate the effects of 1/2" steel with less weight for those oven owners that are in the typical 550 (+/-25) realm, without having to incorporate an oven mod. Once you have an oven that can exceed 600, 3/8" has no problem matching any bake time that 1/2" can achieve at 550.

In other words, you can have any NY bake time you desire (2.5 minutes up) with your hotter than normal oven and 3/8" plate.

You have yet to zero in on the precise temp for steel that will give you 4 minute bakes, but, with the pies you're making, I have a strong feeling that once you hit a 4 minute bake, you might find it a bit on the soft side, and that you might resonate more with your slightly crispier kiln shelf 5 minute pies. Even if you really wanted to hit that 4 minute bake, it would probably be easier to achieve with the kiln shelf, considering that's what you're more comfortable with. You're working at 575 on the kiln shelf but could go higher, right?

All the alchemy that we do boils down to typically anemic oven temperatures. If you're one of the lucky ones that can hit higher temps, the need for special stones fades away. In theory, if someone had an oven that went to 675, they could go to Walmart, get a 10 dollar stone, and, with sufficient skills/knowledge, be producing sublime 4-5 minute pies.

Essen1 · « **Reply #57 on:** August 30, 2012, 04:58:45 PM »

Quote from: scott123 on August 30, 2012, 04:41:52 PM

Mike, other than possibly stress out your oven shelves, stacking wouldn't do anything for your setup. The goal for stacking is to recreate the effects of 1/2" steel with less weight for those oven owners that are in the typical 550 (+/-25) realm, without having to incorporate an oven mod. Once you have an oven that can exceed 600, 3/8" has no problem matching any bake time that 1/2" can achieve at 550.

In other words, you can have any NY bake time you desire (2.5 minutes up) with your hotter than normal oven and 3/8" plate.

You have yet to zero in on the precise temp for steel that will give you 4 minute bakes, but, with the pies you're making, I have a strong feeling that once you hit a 4 minute bake, you might find it a bit on the soft side, and that you might resonate more with your slightly crispier kiln shelf 5 minute pies. Even if you really wanted to hit that 4 minute bake, it would probably be easier to achieve with the kiln shelf, considering that's what you're more comfortable with. You're working at 575 on the kiln shelf but could go higher, right?

All the alchemy that we do boils down to typically anemic oven temperatures. If you're one of the lucky ones that can hit higher temps, the need for special stones fades away. In theory, if someone had an oven that went to 675, they could go to Walmart, get a 10 dollar stone, and, with sufficient skills/knowledge, be producing sublime 4-5 minute pies.

Scotty,

What you're saying makes sense. Given that my oven is one of the cheap GE models it does produce some nice temps. I don't remember what the highest temp was that my kiln shelf heated up to but it was well past 600°F after a 90 minute preheat.

Granted, I have not put the steel plate through all its motions to see if it can match the kiln shelf but I'm really inclined to give it my best shot even if that would mean that I'd have to modify my current dough formula to meet the steel's characteristics in terms of baking performance.

scott123 · « **Reply #58 on:** August 31, 2012, 02:06:57 AM »

Mike since you brought up formula modifications

Yesterday, in reply to Kenji's article, I collated links from this forum for every NY style bake on steel plate that included bake times, temps and undercrust shots.

While having the chance to look at all the results at once, I happened to notice that your sugar quantity made you a little bit of an outlier.

Your undercrusts have been stunning, but, I think, if you wanted to mess around with steel, you might see less of the burning that you were seeing earlier if you scale back the sugar, perhaps to around 1%.

It's also possible that 1% might be a little bit more authentic, although this is an area where authenticity gets a bit hazy. It's not as cut and dry as other aspects- such as the complete inauthenticity of vinegar and thyme in sauce.

pizzaneer · « **Reply #59 on:** August 31, 2012, 07:15:29 AM »

Scott, what is your recipe pick for a controlled experiment? One with which you have personal experience?
Please be as detailed as possible.