Author Topic: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?  (Read 3071 times)

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parallei

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2012, 03:20:27 PM »
In my experience, these guys are the easiest to deal with.  When I picked up my steel plate, they commented on how many they were doing for pizza.

Altitude Steel
1824 West Colfax Avenue
Denver, CO 80204
(303) 534-7075
altitudesteel.com‎

You can get KASL (50#) at

The Denver Bread Company
3200 Irving St
Denver, CO 80211
Neighborhoods: Highland, Northwest
(303) 455-7194
http://www.thedenverbreadcompany.com

You can get Grande Mozz (sometimes, call first):

Valente Deli
7250 Meade Street Westminster, CO 80030‎
(303) 429-0590valentesdeli.com

Good (in my opinion) sausage (buy bulk and freeze) can be had at:

Belfiore Genuine Italian Sausage
5820 W 38th Ave
Wheat Ridge, CO 80212
(303) 455-4653

Belfiore also has Margarita Brand Pepperoni.  I like there dry natural casing sticks.  You may not.



« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 03:57:28 PM by parallei »


Offline ImissNYpizza!

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 06:14:56 AM »
Thank you so much everyone!  I'll get going on the steel plate and I'm planning on a trip to Valente's tomorrow for the grande cheese.  Getting the proper flour was my main concern so thanks so much for the flour tip. If I have time I'll head there as well.  I'm in the mountains at 8000 plus feet, so I'll definitely check out the high altitude link.It looks like I need to test out my food scale on actual food as opposed to puppy weights. :-[

Scott, you mentioned an IR thermometer?  Is there a special kind I need.  I have a convection/regular oven so hopefully I can get the high temp I need. I know I should  go the peel route, but I might start out with the screen since I'm a little concerned with my coordination.

There is a lot of talk on here about the Lehmenn dough.  For the thin, chewy, foldable center is this the recipe I want to start with?

Scott you mentioned a proofer and I've read about so many different types, is there a certain type you prefer?

atom - It sounds like mom and pop pizzeria's are a thing of the past in NY.  I thought it was just Denver that didn't have them that were decent.

The KASL flour, is this a King Arthur flour?  I think I need a bromated flour.  Anyone know if this is?

I'm standing firm on my no cheddar on NY pizza stance;)

Thanks again everyone for your input, if the flour is bromated I'm going on the ingredient hunt tomorrow!

parallei

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 09:48:58 AM »
Quote
The KASL flour, is this a King Arthur flour?  I think I need a bromated flour.  Anyone know if this is?

I'm standing firm on my no cheddar on NY pizza stance;)

Thanks again everyone for your input, if the flour is bromated I'm going on the ingredient hunt tomorrow!


King Arthur Sir Lancelot is a high protein flour.  It is not bromated.  I've never found a bromated flour in Denver.  King Arthur Bread flour does a fine job too (though Scott would disagree!) and is bit lower lower protein.  Folks make fine pizza with non - bromated flour.  Much has to do with one's dough management and handling skills.  Those come with time.

Like I said, call first about the Grande.  Sometimes they have it, other times they don't.  Boars Head whole milk mozz (at most King Sooper deli's) is good too.

Have fun.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 09:53:14 AM by parallei »

scott123

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2012, 09:58:40 AM »
ImissNYpizza!, you're bemoaning cheddar's lack of NY style authenticity, but, at the same time, willing to use a screen?  And you call yourself a New Yorker?  ;D

Seriously, though, launching a pizza can get pretty scary, but, with enough practice, it can easily be mastered.  The nice thing about launching is that you can make an extra dough ball, stretch it, top it with a lb. of beans and practice launching it on the counter, over and over again.  Launch, pull the pizza back on the peel, then repeat.  Do this 30 times and you should have a pretty good feel for it.

Some ovens go to 500 and some will go to 550.  If your oven only goes to 500, steel will not work for you.  You need to confirm peak oven temp (the top temp on the dial) before shopping for steel.

A good peel goes a long way in making launching easier.  This is the peel you want:

http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_106935

It's light, thin, sturdy, and has a very gradual taper.  Many peels are clunky and hard to work with. You should be able to get this locally for less than $20, but I don't know where to buy it in Denver.

Below are some good deals on an infrared thermometer.  IR thermometers are generally cheap/made in China, but, for the most part, are rarely defective. One brand is generally not any better than another.  I'm not including these models because they're the best, but because they're the cheapest.  If you can find something cheaper, go for it.

For NY style temps:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/1-2-lcd-digital-infrared-thermometer-orange-black-123695?item=8

If you think you might ever get into Neapolitan pizza making and purchase/build your own wood fired oven, this model can handle dome temps in that environment:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/gm700-1-5-lcd-non-contact-infrared-thermometer-yellow-black-1-x-9v-104614?item=32

Proofing pans are a complicated subject.  As a beginner, you want a pan with a clear bottom so you can watch the fermentation and judge when it's ready (and post photos here so we can help you judge). Volume is a pretty good indicator, but the underside of the dough tells you a lot as well.  A good training proofing pan is the pyrex round 7 cup glass bowl.

http://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-Storage-7-Cup-Round-Plastic/dp/B000LOWN3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

It can't handle the size of dough ball required for a large 16"ish pie, but, since larger pies are harder to stretch and to launch, it's a good idea to start off smaller anyway.  Once you dial in your dough and no longer need to look at the underside, then you can graduate up to something larger, like plastic proofing pans or trays.

Chau is the leading expert on NY style at elevation, so I would take a look at some of his posts.  I believe he adds another 4% water to compensate for elevation on typical doughs.

No offense to Paul (Parallei), who makes some of the best NY style pies on the forum, but I don't think KASL belongs in NY style pizza.  It's unbromated and a little too high on the protein scale. You can work around the protein level, and many members here do that successfully, but, ideally, you should be looking for one of the lower protein bromated flours that I mentioned.

If you can get Grande in smaller quantities (not a whole log), that's a huge advantage. Even I can't get that.

Here is the most most recent recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

You'll need to use the dough calculator to scale it down to a smaller diameter.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

You'll also want to increase the thickness factor a tiny bit for easier stretchability- perhaps to .085.  As you master stretching, though, you'll want to dial it back down to .075.

The most important aspect as you move forward is ascertaining your oven's peak dial temp.  If it's 500, then it gets a lot more difficult.

Offline norma427

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2012, 10:47:28 AM »
Iím sorry, but have to disagree about using KASL for NY style pizzas.  :-D  Steve and I both have used KASL for some great NY style pizzas.  This is just one post of Steveís using KASL.  He also has more posts about using KASL for his NY style pizzas.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12823.0.html

I also have a lot of posts about using KASL for NY style pizzas.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

parallei

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 12:06:53 PM »
As a PRACTICAL matter, here in Denver, King Arthur Bread Flour or Gold Medal Better for Bread (Harvest King) are the easiest to find if one wants to dive in and start making some pizza.  They can be readily found at King Sooper/City Market or Safeway.

Concerning pans, peels and the like:

CRESCO Restaurant Supply
751 Billings Street, Aurora, CO
(303) 343-3333 ‎ ∑ crescodenver.com

has a nice selection.  Maybe not the exact peel Scott mentioned, which I'm sure is great, but I've had luck with what they stock.




 

Offline ImissNYpizza!

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2012, 07:40:19 PM »
We have a small family business so I was able to get a membership at Restaurant Depot in Denver.  They didn't seem to be concerned that the business was not in the food industry.  I did not find any flours on Scotts list so I ended up with Conagra Full Power High Gluten.  It is bromated, but the protein percent could be too high, I don't know because I can't find this info anywhere.  50 pounds was approx. $17.00.  They had 7/11 and Full Red tomatoes, both at about $4.50 for a No 10.  They also have some pizza making supplies likes peels;)

I was disapointed they didn't have Grande Mozzerella, so after a bout of eenie meenie moe, I ended up with Saputo Gold whole milk block.   Next time I'll make the drive to Velenti's to try to get Grande.  No luck with toppings because the quantities were too large.

Scott, my oven says it goes to 550, but my next step should be the thermometer to make sure.  I'll get that next.

QUESTION:  I found clear plastic containers the right size for proofing at Restaurant Depot that were cheap.  Do I keep the lid partially open so Oxygen is allowed in?  Or close it tightly?  Or just use plastic wrap?

Thanks for the links and info everyone!

Offline Ev

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2012, 07:50:10 PM »
A pin hole in the lid is fine. Not to allow oxygen in but to allow CO2 to escape. You may want to oil your dough balls lightly to keep them from drying out.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 07:51:55 PM by Ev »

scott123

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2012, 01:15:08 AM »
I very lightly oil the container- just enough to allow the dough to release, but I don't oil the ball, because I find that any extra oil on the dough ball tends to be a magnet for bench flour.

ImissNYpizza!, that's really fantastic news about Restaurant Depot.  You did good  ;D They don't care about what kind of business you have, it's all about the tax ID. 

The Conagra Full Power High Gluten is one of those mystery flours that I don't think specs exist for.  It could be rebranded Kyrol (14%) or it could be something else.  Bottom line, it will far outperform KASL and KABF/better for bread, so even though it's not absolutely perfect, for Denver, it's an amazing find.  You might have to underknead it a bit to keep the crust tender, and you also might need to blend it with all purpose, but, for now, let's see what it does.  Chau has made some the best NY style pies the forum has ever seen with Sam's Club's spec-less bromated high gluten flour, and this could very well be along the same lines.

Your eenie meenie moe abilities served you well. Saputo Gold is excellent cheese- possibly even better than Grande.  I know of at least one Brooklyn pizzeria that had to move away from Grande in the last year because of quality control issues.  I think Grande has gotten so huge that they might be resting on their laurels and dropping the ball.  If that's the case, then Saputo might be a better choice. You had to buy a whole brick of it, right?  If you leave the brick intact, I think you should get some shelf life from it, but I still wouldn't go past 3 weeks, and, while we have some members who are comfortable freezing mozz, I'm not part of that group.

Perhaps this is a regional thing, but I'm pretty certain that you should be able to walk into any supermarket in Denver, go to the deli counter and buy a wide diameter Hormel pepperoni (leoni), which they will slice for you. It's not the best pepperoni in the world, but it's a huge step up from the pre-packaged Hormel stuff.

If your dial goes to 550, you're good to go on steel. If you order the IR thermometer from the links I gave you, it could take as long as 3 weeks to get to you, as sometimes they'll ship from their Hong Kong warehouse.

Did you buy a peel? If you did, could you take a photo of it and post it here?

Could you also include a photo of the proofing pans you went with?

Once you have the steel, I think you're pretty much good to go. Remember, size the steel incredibly carefully.  You want a square piece as big as your oven can possibly fit, but not so big that the door doesn't close. When putting the steel in the oven, find another person to help and take off the oven door for better access. You can remove most oven doors just by pulling the door out and then lifting it off it's hinges. Try not to slide the shelf with the steel on it, but rather, lower the steel onto the shelf that's already in place. It also might be easier to take the shelf out, place the steel on it and then lift both items into place, being careful to support the bottom of the shelf.

It seems like, once you open the cheese and tomatoes, you're going to have a lot to use up. Do me a favor- don't invite a lot of people for your maiden voyage.  I would say that you're going to need to at least 10 bakes in order to be anywhere near a point where you can serve your pizza to company. Stick to family members for the first few pies. They're good guinea pigs :)

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2012, 02:18:29 AM »
Practice the launch!  That's my whole advice, and IMO the most nervewracking part for beginners.  Everything else, you can take time on, but getting that topped skin in the oven can be tough... and hilarious. 
 :P
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.


Offline ImissNYpizza!

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2012, 08:11:24 PM »
Extra supplies of mozzerella and No. 10 tomatoes can easily be used in batches of lasagna, and when you compare the 2.50/pound saputa gold with the 5.00/pound precious at a grocery store, I can basically give the extra lasagna to family and/or friends for free. Should have gotten their bulk ricotta - oh well, next time.  I forgot to mention that Restaurant Depot also has plastic flour containers which should hold a 50# bag for half the price I paid for one on the king arthur site for anyone else that wants to buy one.

I didn't get the peel yet, I think I'll order yours because I'm concerned with a heavy and/or bulky peel.  I'm small with the upper body strength of a kitten and have to raise the pizza up to the height of a double oven, so being picky on this will help me.  I also have to wait for my stone to arrive - which I ordered before I knew about the steel to use a peel anyway.  Until then, I might use an upside down sheet pan and of course play around with oven positioning and temp to brown the bottom until my supplies arrive and I get a steel piece figured out.  You lost me on taking the oven door off.  Is the objective to cook the pizza with the oven door open or off?

I'm curious about the soy oil in your recipe.  Why soy instead of olive?

Offline ImissNYpizza!

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2012, 08:24:20 PM »
This is the type of proofing container I got:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/dough-rising-bucket

Except, mine are smaller, 4 quart size, so do I poke a hole in the lids to release co2?

Offline ImissNYpizza!

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2012, 08:32:27 PM »
oops... containers are 2 quart, not 4.

Offline ImissNYpizza!

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2012, 08:51:19 PM »
off topic, but beautiful airedale parallei!  Thanks so much for all your Denver tips:)  I'm west of Denver so Aurora Cresco will be a great option for supplies if I don't see what I need at restaurant depot which is next to 25 and colfax.  That's quite a bit easier for me to get to from the west.

Offline RobynB

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Re: New to board, but Cheddar on NY pizza? really?
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2012, 10:32:05 PM »
Do me a favor- don't invite a lot of people for your maiden voyage.  I would say that you're going to need to at least 10 bakes in order to be anywhere near a point where you can serve your pizza to company. Stick to family members for the first few pies. They're good guinea pigs :)

True that!!  I was so excited the first time we fired up the new WFO, I invited 3 friends and they ended up bringing a couple more and it was incredibly stressful.  Definitely get a few bakes down and feel comfortable with it before you start hosting! 


 

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