Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast

[Wazza McG]

Well Pete,

This Pizza has ended up being my best to date.  It was definitely the lightest pizza I have made and it is the 1st time I had ever got good aeration within the dough.  This may be due to a couple of factors.

1.  It was the first time I used a mechanical device to knead the dough. (Bread Machine - 15 minutes)

2.  I used a gluten relaxant after the poolish.

3.  The poolish did it's job.

4.  Order of mixing ingredients.


The Poolish was;

300g High Gluten Flour

360g Water - extra water was needed to get a batter like viscosity.  This never happened with the 00 flour - More Gluten must equal more water.

1/2 Teaspoon Saf Red Instant yeast.

The batter nearly tripled in size over 8 hours.  Yes, I used all the water in the Poolish.

I put this batter in the bread machine and added 2 cups of flour, 1 1/2 teaspoons of bread improver and 3 teaspoons of powdered milk.  After 5 minutes I put in 2 teaspoons of sea salt and 2 teaspoon of Olive Oil.

It ended up being a very simple recipe.

Gee, I wish I had a digital camera to show you.  The seafood pizza was awesome, I got some char on the crust where the lemon pepper fell on it.  I never thought I would ever see char in my oven!  I did spray a mist of water on the crust just prior the pizza going into the oven.

Regards,

Wazza McG

[Pete-zza]

Wazza McG,

Congratulations on your success.

I notice that you used high-gluten flour instead of the 00 flour that you talked about using recently. Since this thread was intended to focus on 00 doughs, which behave quite differently from other doughs, you might want to repost what you did at the General Pizza Making section. If you choose to do so, I might recommend that you recast what you did in standard recipe format with the usual step by step instructions, including baking instructions. That might help those who choose to try out your recipe. What you did might also be useful to those who have elected not to use natural preferments, such as those from sourdo.com, to improve crust flavor. I assume in this regard that at some point you let your "poolish" cold ferment. Was there any room temperature fermentation or only cold fermentation?

I was also curious to know what kind of dough relaxer you used to increase the extensibility of your dough. It also sounds like you got good oven spring. As you know, bread bakers mist their bread doughs to keep the dough surface moist and increase oven spring. I was thinking about this the other day in the context of pizza dough when I was researching the topic. I was thinking more along the lines of brushing a bit of water on the rim of the unbaked pizza.

You didn't mention anything about crust flavor. Did your "poolish" produce a noticeably better crust flavor? And was the crust and crumb texture more breadlike? Maybe you can cover all these points if you decide to post your recipe at the General Pizza Making section. Thanks.

Peter

[Wazza McG]

Yes Pete,

I can apologise on a few points as I did stray from the topic - not deliberately, it just happened that way.  I think I ended up with a classic New Yorker to tell you the truth.  Anyway, If I can replicate it next time I will do as you suggest and announce in general pizza making.  Thanks for all your help.

Everything was done at room temperature, Poolish begun at 8.30am and dough balls where made by 4.30pm.  The balls had 2 rises and 1 fold ~ 2hours.  Pizzas where in the oven at 7.00pm.  So this part does fit within topic - same day dough recipe Using Commercial Yeast.

Overall, it was the lightness and texture that stood out the most.  I could of folded this pizza.

I am not giving up on the 00 flour yet  - just a having a spell from it  - we must have some good gluten flour here in oz,  I had to go to 66% hydration to get a decent looking ball.  This flour just soaked up the water so much more compared to the 00 flour.

Australia is in the Soccer World Cup 2006 and all is good - woooohoooo!! 

Regards,

Wazza McG

[foodblogger]

Pete-zza:
My Caputo flour came last night.  I now have 25 pounds of the stuff to play with.   

This weekend I am planning on a same day Caputo using a poolish and fresh yeast if I can find it.  A couple questions -

1)  Would you proof the fresh yeast?  I ask because the fresh yeast has been sketchy lately at best.  Is this commonly done in Naples or do they just go for it?
2)  What % of the total dough weight would you make the poolish?  I have seen some suggestions that 20% might be the way to go so I was planning on trying that.
3)  I know that poolishes are usually made with ~.25% IDY, I haven't been able to find any info on how that would change if fresh yeast was used. 
4)  This may be a question for pizzanapoletana - if a poolish is used in Naples (are they?) do they subject the dough to an additional rise after combining the remaining ingredients?
5)  I have grown very fond of higher hydration in my doughs.  Caputo, as I understand it, behaves differently.  I think I read somewhere that 63% was about the max that is usually used for Caputo flour.  Is this accurate?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Pete-zza]

foodblogger,

1) Would you proof the fresh yeast?  I ask because the fresh yeast has been sketchy lately at best.  Is this commonly done in Naples or do they just go for it?

In the U.S., fresh yeast is usually just crumbled into the flour. Since it is a "wet" yeast, it doesn't need separate proofing in water, although one can do so if desired, using tepid water at around 80-90 degrees F. I believe in Naples pizza makers just dissolve the fresh yeast in the water after the salt has beed dissolved in the water.

2) What % of the total dough weight would you make the poolish?  I have seen some suggestions that 20% might be the way to go so I was planning on trying that.

In the bread dough realm, the amount of poolish is typically from 20-80% of the water in the recipe. The poolish is then elaborated using equal amounts of flour and water to produce a hydration of 100%. I have personally tended to stay on the low side of the range, around 20%. When I have tried more, the crust was baguette-like and with similar crust and flavor characteristics. I like those characteristics but not in a pizza crust.

3) I know that poolishes are usually made with ~.25% IDY, I haven't been able to find any info on how that would change if fresh yeast was used.

To convert IDY to fresh yeast, just multiply the weight of IDY by 3. 

4) This may be a question for pizzanapoletana - if a poolish is used in Naples (are they?) do they subject the dough to an additional rise after combining the remaining ingredients?

This is perhaps best left to pizzanapoletana to answer but when I researched the matter some time ago I did find references to what appeared to be use of sponges or possibly a poolish, but the fermentation time was quite short, about an hour or two if memory serves me correct.

5) I have grown very fond of higher hydration in my doughs.  Caputo, as I understand it, behaves differently.  I think I read somewhere that 63% was about the max that is usually used for Caputo flour.  Is this accurate?

I am sure that the rated absorption value for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is less than 63%, but, again, pizzanapoletana may be able to provide better insights on this than I since he has mastered the technique of using very high hydrations for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. I believe scott has also. What you might do is start with the amount of flour you plan to use and just keep adding water until you get to the point where it starts to become too difficult for you to handle. If you note the total amount of water you use to get to this point, then you can use that number to calculate the hydration for your formulation. I should remind you, however, that if the hydration is too high, you may end up with a cracker-like crust, as pizzanapoletana has cautioned in the past. Both he and scott use very high oven temperatures so they can get away with higher hydration levels than those of us using standard home ovens.

Peter

[foodblogger]

Pete-zza:
Thanks a ton for your input.  I knew about the multiplying IDY X 3 for fresh yeast, but I wondered if that rule still applied for poolish.  I reviewed all of pizzanapoletana's posts.  When he talks about a same day dough it seems he is talking about a 15 hour rise.  Ouch.  Also in reviewing his posts I may have answered one of my questions.  When he has talked about poolish with Caputo flour, it has been in reference to what is being done North of Naples and not in Naples.  The majority of his posts also refer to using a wild-yeasted starter as opposed to commercial yeast.  Sadly I will not be able to use a starter for some time.  My last culture soured (no pun intended) my wife to the idea of keeping one in the kitchen.  When he has talked about using fresh yeast in conjunction with Caputo flour he has said 2.3g fresh yeast to 1650g flour or 0.14%.

Because I am still a little uncertain whether a poolish would work with Caputo flour, I have abandoned the idea for now and have instead decided to just do a regular, commercial yeasted, room temperature rise dough.

I'll try using longer room temp fermentation times in the future, but to start I need to be able to do it in 8 hours.  This has raised a few more questions.

1)  If you were looking to shorten pizzanapoletana's rise times from 15 hours to 8 hours, would you increase the fresh yeast from 0.14% and if so how much?
2)  I wonder if I should decrease the salt % from what he typically uses.  Obviously doing so will affect how the yeast behaves.  He has said about 2.7% in numerous posts.
3)  How did you arrive at the 1.79% olive oil?  I plan to use olive oil in my dough as pizzanapoletana has suggested doing this for the home oven.

I think I will use your advice and decide on an amount of flour and then add water until the dough seems sketchy.  I followed this approach for my NY style dough and had success at the 66% level but I am worried that Caputo will behave differently and I will end up with a cracker.  I think I will start around 60.6%.  This number comes from pizzanapoletana.  Thanks in advance for any additional advice you might have.

[scott r]

I just wanted to point out that from numerous sources I have been told that even some of the better Neapolitan pizzerias use a roughly 7 hour rise with fresh yeast.  There is no reason why this will not work for you with excellent results.   Yes, when I have the time I do a 20 hour, and with a starter I even go further some times, but I have had excellent results with the shorter rise times as well.  Everything here is temperature/hydration/salt related as far as how much yeast to use to get a 7 hour rise, but I did an .8% IDY batch yesterday and it worked out perfect for me with a 65% hydration dough and 2.5% salt.  I am not sure what temps were going on, as I let the dough rise overnight while I was asleep and ate the pizza for breakfast, but my guess is that it was about 70 degrees.

Also, I should point out that when doing the shorter 7 hour rise times there is no need (or time even) to do the two stage fermentation that Marco reccomends for the longer fermentation doughs.

[Pete-zza]

foodblogger,

For the poolish I would use the same conversion factor to convert from IDY to fresh yeast.

The 15-hour rise that pizzanapoletana uses is with respect to a naturally-leavened dough, as you correctly noted.

As for your question about how much fresh yeast to use for an 8-hour fermentation, some time ago, I came across a conversion guide to determine the amount of ADY to use, in grams per 100 kilograms of flour, for a specified number of hours of bulk fermentation. The amount of ADY per 100 kilograms of flour is found by dividing the number 1360 by the number of hours of bulk fermentation. This calculation is respect to a fermentation temperature of 80 degrees F, which I assume would be a typical temperature in a baker's establishment. The guide is also predicated on a water temperature of 95-100 degrees F (for proofing ADY).

Using 8 hours, which is your desired target, the amount of ADY required comes to 1360/8 = 170 g. To convert the 170 g. of ADY to fresh yeast, we would multiply 170 g. by 2, to get 340 g. If you now take the amount of flour you intend to use, say, 5.68 oz. of Caputo 00 pizzeria flour as I used from the pieguy formulation, and convert that to grams, we get 161.03 g. (5.68 x 28.35 = 161.03 g.). If we need 340 g. of fresh yeast per 100 kilograms of 00 flour, then the amount of fresh yeast we would need for 161.03 g. of flour would be 0.55 g. (161.03 x 340/100,000 = 0.55 g.).

Since the guide is predicated on a temperature of 80 degrees F, as noted above, and since a 15 degree drop in temperature, say from 80 degrees to 65 degrees (the temperature in your kitchen, we hope), should theoretically causes a halving of the rate of fermentation, then that suggests that we have to double the amount of yeast to 1.10 g. (2 x 0.55 g.). So, if everything I did is correct, you would need 1.10 g. of fresh yeast to get the desired fermentation at the 8-hour point. That represents a baker's percent of 1.10 g./161.03 g. = 0.68%. That may seem high, but if you converted the 2.3 g. of fresh yeast per 1650 g. of flour in pizzanapoletana's formulation to IDY, we would get 0.77 g. (2.3 g./3 = 0.77 g.), or 0.047 %. For 161.03 g. of flour, that would come to 0.076 g. of IDY, or 0.02 t. IDY, which is just a few grains. When I used around 1/6 t. IDY for the pieguy formulation, it took around 14 hours for the dough to double. So, 1.1 g. of fresh yeast doesn't seem out of line to me. If anything, it may be on the low side, especially if the fresh yeast isn't really all that fresh. Maybe you can check my analysis and math to see if you agree with what I did.

As for the salt, I suspect that its percent is tied to using a natural preferment and a long room-temperature fermentation. Hence, I think it can be reduced to allow slightly faster fermentation. I believe the 1.79% oil came from pieguy's and/or friz78's formulation.

I'm sorry to hear that you won't be trying the poolish approach. I was looking forward to your results.  Maybe another time.

Peter

[foodblogger]

Pete-zza:
I'll try the poolish after I get a basic same-day recipe working.  That way I can truly be experimental and compare my poolish pies to some sort of control.   
Thanks again for your help.  I'll run through the conversions myself this afternoon sometime just to be sure and then I'll post my final formula so that is can undergo some scrutiny before I try it.

Scott R -
thanks for the advice.  I'll have to try a couple pies with your numbers as well.

[Wazza McG]

Here are 2 handy links that read well on poolishes and fermentation.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/Direct_Sponge_and_Biga.htm

http://www.theartisan.net/fermentation_control.htm

As Peter suggest earlier, be aware you are not making bread even though  most of the principles are similar.

Here is another link you should enjoy.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/NewStuff.htm

Regards,

Wazza McG

[foodblogger]

Pete-zza:

That is a remarkable series of conversions.  If I am looking at your conversions correctly, it suggests a formula:

At 80 degrees:
Amount of fresh yeast in grams = (Flour weight in grams/ number of hours desired rise ) X 0.0272

At 65 degrees
Amount of fresh yeast in grams = (flour weight in grams / number of hours desired rise)X .0544

I am suspicious that scaling down from 100 kg you are much more likely to notice small variations in yeast activity when sticking to that formula.  Ugg...now I am having flashbacks to the experiences that made me switch to IDY in the first place.  I'll give it a shot though.  Before I can continue I need one more piece of advice.  You chose a TF of 0.071 for your pies.  I am wondering if, given your recent experience using Caputo flour, it might not be best to use something a little thicker for my operating temp of ~550?

[Pete-zza]

foodblogger,

Your conversion statements look to be correct.

You are right about the perils of downsizing things from big numbers. Some time ago, when I downsized one of pizzanapoletana's formulations to a single-pizza size, he remarked that that was not a good idea and that I should make a larger batch of dough and make rolls out of the dough that I did not use to make pizzas.

For thickness factor, I would use something around 0.11. For the doughs I made recently, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.116, for a 10-inch size. You can use your judgment on the size when you are making your skins. If you change the size, you can always go back and recalculate the thickness factor to use the next time.

Peter

[foodblogger]

Alright, I think I have it figured out.

Baker's Formula For Fresh Yeast 8 hour 65 Degree Rise

Caputo 00 pizzeria flour  100%
Water (65 degrees)         60.6%
Sea Salt                              2.5%
EVO                                     1.79%
Fresh cake yeast               0.68%

I figured out ingredient weights to make a single 14 inch pizza, TF 0.11 (ugg I know I should make a bigger batch, maybe next time)

Flour    293 g
water   178 g
salt        7 g
Oil          5 g
yeast     2 g


Now the question becomes one of processing.  I am planning to take a little piece of the cake yeast and proof it, seperate from the dough, just to be sure the stuff is active.  That way if I have dead yeast I can switch to ADY and avert disaster.  I also plan to dissolve the salt in the water, then the yeast in the water, then the flour and finally the oil.  Remaining questions:

1)  Should I deflate (punch down) the dough after 4 hours or do a folding procedure like pieguy recommends?
2)  How would you let this stuff rise?  In a metal bowl sealed with plastic wrap?

Wazza McG:
Those were cool links, although I couldn't get the last one to behave properly with my browser.  I'll try again later.

[Pete-zza]

As a follow up to my recent Caputo experiments as reported at Replies 250-253, at page 13 of at the A16 thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.240.html, I decided today to make a couple of same-day Caputo 00 pizzas based on modifications of the pieguy formulation that I posted at the A16 thread. I made two pizzas, which I will call Pizza A and Pizza B to avoid confusion with those I reported on at the A16 thread. The basic formulation I used was as follows:

Modified Same-Day Pieguy Formulation
100%, Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, 5.61 oz. (159.04 g.), 1 1/4 c. plus 1 t.
59%, Water, 3.31 oz. (93.84 g.), about 3/8 c.
2%, Sea salt, 0.11 oz. (3.12 g.), a bit over 1/2 t.
1.7%, Oil, 0.10 oz. (2.84 g.), a bit over 1/2 t.
0.29%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.016 oz. (0.46 g.), a bit more than 1/8 t. (See comments below)
Total dough weight = 9.15 oz. (259.29 g.) (for 10” pizza)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.116

The two doughs I made based on the above formulation were not identical. For the dough for Pizza A, I started with water at 123 degrees F in the bowl. When I saw that the water cooled off in the bowl fairly quickly, I upped the temperature of the water for the dough for Pizza B to 135 degree F to compensate for the rapid cooling. I also doubled the amount of yeast (IDY) for Pizza B to 0.032 oz. (a bit less than 1/3 t.).

I also increased the hydration percent in pieguy’s original formulation from 57% to 59%, and I reduced the amount of salt from 2.3% to 2%. What I was hoping to achieve with these changes, together with the warmer water in the case of both pizzas and the additional yeast in the case of Pizza B, was a faster fermentation of the doughs (both at room temperature) so that they would be ready to use in 8 hours, not several days. The two doughs were made an hour apart of each other and were baked an hour apart from each other. Both doughs were kneaded entirely by hand.

The sequencing of ingredients for the two doughs was similar--as follows:

Pizza A: Water (123 degrees F), salt (dissolved in the water), flour and IDY (0.016 oz.) combined, and oil.
Pizza B: Water (135 degrees F), salt (dissolved in the water, flour and IDY (0.032 oz) combined, and oil.

Once made, the two doughs rose at different rates. After a slow start, the dough for Pizza A expanded to about double its original size over the 8-hour period. The dough for Pizza B expanded to about triple its original size over the 8-hour period, with a fairly fast start. Since the dough for Pizza A got off to a slow start, I decided not to punch it down and use the fold technique. To treat the two doughs comparably, I decided not to punch down or use the fold technique for the dough for Pizza B either. It’s possible that a punchdown of the doughs would have helped, but I will reserve that approach for a future experiment.

After 8 hours fermentation time for the two dough balls, they were formed into 10-inch skins, dressed and baked. They were both dressed essentially the same as the pizzas reported on at the abovereferenced post (Replies 250-253) at the A16 thread. This included oiling the rims of the skins and using cold toppings. And both pizzas were both baked in essentially the same manner as previously reported for Pizza #3 at the A16 thread. Specifically, each pizza was baked on a lower pizza stone on the lowest oven rack position for about 3 to 4 minutes and then shifted to a second stone (covered with several tiles) positioned on the second oven rack position from the top, where they each baked for about a minute or two under the broiler and on the superheated second stone and tiles. The broiler had been turned on during the preheating of the oven, and turned back on again when the pizzas were put on the bottom stone. Both stones (and the tiles) were preheated for about an hour at the oven’s maximum temperature (nominally 500-550 degrees F).

The photos below show the finished products. Both pizzas turned out satisfactorily but they were quite different, especially the texture of the crusts. Pizza A had a soft and chewy crust, with a bit of doughiness, whereas Pizza B had a crunchier and slightly crispier crust. Fortunately, neither had a cardboard-like texture, and the coloration of each crust, both top and bottom, was good. And both were tasty. Even with their differences, I would rate the two pizzas equally.

Even though I was satisfied with the results, I believe that the best results are achieved with longer fermentation times as was used, for example, with Pizzas 1-3 as reported at the A16 thread (Replies 250-253). This is consistent with my past experience with same-day room-temperature doughs based on using commercial yeast. To get the best results and get the best textures and flavors takes time. And for optimum results with a Caputo-based dough, it helps to have a high-temperature oven to get the best out of the Caputo flour. However, if time does not permit long fermentation times or close attentiveness to the doughs and their development, the pizzas I made today can be made quickly and without requiring any attention between the time that the doughs are made and the time they are used. At times, that can come in handy.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Pizza A

[Pete-zza]

Pizza B

[Pete-zza]

foodblogger,

As you will note from my last posts, I did not use the punchdown approach, for the reason mentioned. However, I have made same-day 00 doughs before with a single punchdown over a roughly 8-hour period, with good results, but usually the dough had a lot of yeast and the dough rose quickly. As I noted, I wanted to treat both doughs alike and to see the results without using the punchdown/fold technique. It's also possible that you may not always be around to do the punchdowns, etc.

As far as the type of container to use, I suggest that you use a non-metal container. Metal is better for the refrigerator because it helps cool the dough down faster. But at room temperature, and especially where you are trying to accelerate the fermentation process, a non-metal container seems to work better. I used a couple of Rubbermaid type containers today but you can also use plastic zip-type storage bags or any other lightweight container.

Peter

[Wazza McG]

Peter,

Both look like great  pies - what did they taste like?, any surprising significance between the two? Pizza A looks to have more variegated voids, therefore, lighter in texture - not sure if that is the right word?

If I had to choose which one I would pick - it would of been Pizza A.

Wazza McG

[foodblogger]

Pete-zza:
I have absolutely no desire to re-invent the wheel here.  I am probably only going to be making this 8 hour Caputo pie a few times as a control or when I need a pie and don't have 3 days for the processing.  The only thing I want to do differently is to have a little more hydration and use fresh yeast.  So I am going to repeat your experiment with pie A exactly only with fresh yeast and starting at 60.6% hydration.  If the dough feels too dry at 60.6% I'll add water.  I'll keep track of the water very closely and post the final formula when I report results.  I also might decrease the TF to 0.1 just to see how this flour behaves at that thickness vs. Gold Medal Better for Bread.  A couple questions:

1)  How did the dough feel when you were working it with 59% hydration as opposed to 57%?  Do you think it could have used more water.  I ask because pizzanapoletana has said that typically Neapolitan doughs have 'very high' hydration and can sometimes only be removed from the dough box using a scraper.  To me that suggests a hydration of 67% or greater, maybe even in the 70% range.  Obviously if the hydration gets too high we run the risk of making crackers in our home ovens but there has to be an optimal point.  The optimal hydration of Caputo flour for the home oven is one of the main questions I hope to answer with my experimentation.
2)  Was the 1.7% oil a typo or did you change the oil % from 1.79 to 1.7 and if so why?

[Pete-zza]

Wazza,

I use long fermentation times so much and have been spoiled by the advantages that long fermentation times bring that, to me, most pizzas that are made the same day tend to fall short by comparison. Most people tend to think of better flavor when they think of long fermentation times but long fermentation times also affect the color, odor and texture of the crust--all of which can combine, often in a subtle, unnoticeable way, to the overall eating experience. The pizzas I made yesterday did not have a cardboard-like texture but often same-day crusts do. If I had used 4 hours total fermentation times yesterday rather than 8, I think the crusts would have been cardboard-like. Four hours would not have been long enough in my opinion to allow all of the biochemical activity to run its course to provide good crust flavor, color, odor and texture in that short a period. But, as a realist, I understand that many people have busy schedules and don't have time to devote to doughs that take several days to get the best results. And, for them, the pizzas I made yesterday would serve a useful purpose.

In my opinion, the best crust textures, without a doubt, come from using natural preferments. Poolishes, sponges and bigas also provide good crust textures. This thread is for the exploratioin of same-day doughs, but it is possible to start or prep preferments the night before and let them do the heavy biochemical lifting overnight while you are asleep and use them the next day for a "same day" dough. I have done this sort of thing several times with the Lehmann doughs and gotten good results. I don't see any reason offhand why the same approach can't work with Caputo doughs. There's no law that says that the preferments and the final dough both have to be made the same day. I hope in due course that our members will experiment more with preferments, as I know you have been doing, to improve same-day doughs.

As for your preference for Pizza A from the photos, all I can say is that photos can be deceiving. Some of my best pizzas have been the least photogenic--almost to the point where I felt I had to apologize for them. I take a "beauty is skin deep" approach. When I look at photos of pizzas, the first thing I look at is the crust, and especially the rim. I can often tell a lot about a pizza, and even be able to spot problems, just from the photo of the crust--the color, shape, and especially the crumb if a cross-section photo of the rim is provided. To me, the crust has to be the center-piece of the pizza. If it isn't right, the toppings might not be able to save it, even if they are the finest available and the pie looks absolutely beautiful. To me. that's like putting lipstick on a pig. Dom DeMarco at DiFara's is able to get away with it (his doughs are made within 1 to 2 hours) but he has a high-temperature oven that masquerades the deficiencies in his doughs.

Wazza, Pizza A did have a more expansive rim and more and larger voids in the rim, but overall it was denser than the crust for Pizza B, which made Pizza B seem lighter from a weight standpoint even though both pizzas were the same size and had the same nominal thickness. I liked attributes of both, which made it difficult to pick one over the other.

Peter