Author Topic: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast  (Read 25812 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2006, 10:00:54 AM »
foodblogger,

I found that using 59% hydration made for a softer, smoother dough, and I am certain that I could have used an even higher hydration.

I also agree with the notion of using a slightly thinner crust. I thought to do that with Pizza B after I had made Pizza A, but decided against it because it would have made comparing the two pizzas more difficult.

I did, in fact, use 1.7% oil. From my notes, I see that I did the same with the recent pizzas discussed at the A16 thread. I believe the 1.79% number came from a giotto formulation. As it turns out, the difference is so small as not to be distinguishable when using ordinary measuring spoons.

Good luck with your pizzas this weekend.

Peter


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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2006, 01:46:15 PM »
Very interesting results to report.  I made a same day Caputo pizza yesterday.  The results were shocking.  I have made a ton of same day pizzas with an 8 hour rise, but this one was completely different.  I actually made a mistake while making my pie but I may have stumbled onto something.  Before I say what the mistake was I have to know if my results really are different than usual for a same day Caputo.  Here is a photo of the whole pie.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2006, 01:47:21 PM »
And here is a photo of a slice.

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2006, 01:52:11 PM »
Here is where it gets interesting.  My wife and I were completely blown away by the texture and flavor of this crust.  The texture was light and fluffy with a crisp bottom.  It was not a chewy crust, despite its being completely foldable.  There was the nice open crumb with lots of different sized bubbles that both of us crave.  The flavor is what got us.  It only rose for 8 hours but the crust tasted fermented - a lot like beer!  We loved it!  This pie was completely unique amongst all of the pizzas I have ever made or eaten.  The closest thing I have had to the crust was when I used to make beer bread using a can of beer and self rising flour.

The other thing that was different was the feel of the dough.  I kept the hydration at 60.6% and the dough felt as wet as one of my bread flour 66% doughs.  Are these typical results for Caputo?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2006, 02:51:08 PM »
foodblogger,

It's hard to say from the photos but I wonder whether you forgot the salt. That could translate into a highly expansive dough with the type of crumb shown in your photo. The lack of salt would speed up the fermentation and, in effect, convert an 8-hour rise to something that seemed longer--together with the accompanying flavor-contributing byproducts of fermentation. Salt also strengthens the gluten structure and, if present in fairly large amount, suppresses the protease enzymes which themselves attack the gluten to soften it. That might account for the "wetness" of the dough you mentioned.  Without the overlay of salt, you would notice the true flavors of the crust better. Another possibility is that you used more yeast than you intended. That can sometimes translate into a beer-like flavor.

Once you reveal the mistake you made, can you restate the formulation you ended up using and the dough management procedures you used?

Peter

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2006, 03:30:46 PM »
Here is the formula I made:

Flour 100%
Water 60.6% (123 degrees)
Salt 2.0%
Oil 1.7%
Fresh yeast 0.87%

I didn't forget the salt :)

I mixed water with the yeast, then added flour gradually over 5 minutes.  Salt was mixed in with the flour.  After all the flour was added I kneaded in the oil.  I did a hand knead until the exact moment that I had the right texture in the dough which ended up being about 10 minutes.  Then I put the dough ball into a ziplock bag on the counter.  Room temp was 65 degrees.

Here is where I made the mistake.  Before making the dough I took a small piece of the fresh yeast and proofed it in some water.  I saw what I thought was the yeast starting to foam up so I went ahead and made the dough.  After my dough ball was in the plastic bag I looked at the proofing and the stuff that I saw was no longer there!  I took the rest of the fresh yeast and repeated the proofing for 15 minutes.  Still no luck.  I decided that I didn't want to mess with making up another dough so I weighed out enough IDY to make 0.29% and dissolved it in a small amount of warm water.  I then kneaded that warm water/yeast into my doughball.  It was a little wet so I added a touch more Caputo flour and kneaded to get it back to the original texture.

The dough ball didn't so much rise as it did flatten out and rise a little.  It makes me wonder about the gluten development as you said.  I wonder if I kneaded it too much or not enough.  At any rate after about 6.5 hours the dough ball was very spread out (almost 10 inches) so I reformed the dough into a ball, being careful to degas as little as possible and placed it onto the floured counter.  I covered it with plastic wrap and let it rise another 1.5 hours.

I wonder if the fresh yeast really was active and I had 2 different kinds of yeast going crazy in the dough ball.  Too much yeast would explain the beer flavor.

What about the texture though?  I've never had a crust quite like this one, and I must say it was an extremely pleasant crust.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2006, 04:37:49 PM »
foodblogger,

I liked my "explanation" so well that I may have to try leaving out the salt for a Caputo 00 dough sometime and see what happens :).

Now that you have explained what you did, I wonder whether it was the use of the sealed plastic storage bag that may have contributed to the flavor enhancement and possibly the other effects. Some time ago, I posted a "tip" on another thread on using a sealed plastic storage bag for dough fermentation purposes. Here is the excerpt:

Large Hefty OneZip freezer storage bags. When I want to ferment a dough at room temperature and to monitor its behavior, I often use a large Hefty OneZip freezer storage bag (any other equivalent brand will also do). It has a zip-type closure that seals the bag in one easy, gliding movement. I put the dough (very lightly oiled) into the bag, move the closure to almost the end of the bag to leave a small opening into the bag, insert a straw into that small opening, blow into the bag to inflate it, and then remove the straw quickly while I move the closure to its fully closed position. This procedure produces an inflated bag where I can see the dough during its entire rise. Another thing I noticed is that when I use a natural preferment in the dough, the smells of the dough intensify over a period of many hours because the volatile components are trapped within the inflated bag. When I open the bag and can smell the alcohol and other by-products of fermentation, I generally know that I am going to get good crust flavor because of these by-products of fermentation. For an example of the above technique (for a naturally leavened Lehmann dough), see Reply #132 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.120.html.

If you check out the link referenced above, you will see the results I achieved from using the sealed plastic storage approach. From your description, it sounds like your dough behaved just like mine and spread and flattened out and the gases, etc., were trapped within the bag. In many of my room temperature fermentations, I frequently loosely cover the container holding the dough with plastic wrap. When I have tried putting a tight fitting lid, like the cover of a Rubbermaid container, I have found that the gases are strong enough to pop the lid off. In a sealed bag, the gases can't get out.

If you repeat the experiment how will you proceed?

Peter

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2006, 04:57:45 PM »
The plastic bag may be the spoiler here.  Next time I do this I will make 2 dough balls from the same batch, using the exact same formulation I used above.  I'll use IDY.  I'll proof 1 ball in a bowl covered loosely with plastic wrap and 1 in the same ziplock bag.  If that doesn't answer the question I'll have to look at the whole fresh yeast/IDY combo issue again.  I've got 25 pounds of Caputo to burn through so I'll be making Caputo balls for a while.  That last pie was so delicious it is almost worth me going to the trouble to have the stuff shipped in once in a while.  The texture of the crust was truly amazing.  It is completely different from what I have gotten from similar formulations using different flours.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2006, 05:25:55 PM »
foodblogger,

I'm glad in any event to see that you liked the results you got. I hope they are reproducible. I know you have two stones that you were planning to use. Can you described how you actually baked the pizza, and also how long it took? And what size pizza you finally settled on?

As an aside, I noticed that your water temperature was 123 degrees F, and that you proofed the yeast in water. The usual recommendation for fresh yeast is to use water at around 70-85 degrees F (it's a wet yeast). For IDY, the usual recommendation for water temperature is up to 120-130 degrees F, but added to the flour, not as a proofing liquid. If proofed in water, I believe the usual recommendation for IDY is around 105-115 degrees F, just as with ADY.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 05:39:24 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2006, 07:01:20 PM »
Pete-zza:
I set my oven up exactly like I did for this post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2638.msg22818.html#msg22818
Pizza stone on bottom rack with an additional stone 7.5 inches above.  I preheated the oven at 550 degrees, opening the door a couple times to refire it.  15 minutes before I was planning on putting the pizza on the stone I fired up the broiler for 10 minutes, saving the last 5 minutes for heat from the bottom.

I then slid the pizza on the bottom stone.  At that point I turned on the broiler.  I baked the pizza on the bottom stone for 3 1/2 minutes (timer).  I then took the pizza from the bottom stone, rotated it 180 degrees and slid it onto the top stone, under the broiler.  It baked and additional 2 1/2 minutes (timer) before it looked done.  I was basically trying to mimick your technique.

I actually didn't proof the yeast that went into the dough.  I had the water at 123 degrees and dissolved the yeast.  Then I immediately began the rest of the mixing steps.  The part about proofing was done before, using yeast from the same cake, separately from any ingredients that went into the pie.  I chose 123 degrees based on your above post, even though you used IDY I figured I would change as little as possible.  Thanks for the tip on the temps for various yeasts.

When I do the experiment using the IDY and ziplock bag vs. bowl I'll mix yeast with flour, dissolve salt in 123 degree water, like you did for pizza A.

If that experiment doesn't reproduce my favorable results I'll repeat everything the way I did it originally, with the 2 different yeasts.  Hopefully I can get those results again.  Like I said, that pie was unique in my experience both as a diner and a pizzamaker.



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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2006, 07:39:49 PM »
I forgot:
Pizza diameter = 14 inches
TF = 0.1

0.1 seems about like baby bear's bed - not too thick, not too thin, just right.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2006, 08:32:44 PM »
foodblogger,

To be sure I got my arms around your formulation, I ran your numbers through my spreadsheet and got the following:

100%, Flour (Caputo Pizzeria 00), 9.36 oz. (265.15 g.)
60.6%, Water (123 degrees F), 5.67 oz. (160.68 g.)
2%, Salt, 0.19 oz. (5.30 g.), a bit less than 1 t.
1.7%, Oil, 0.16 oz. (4.51 g.), a bit less than 1 t.
0.29%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.77 g.), 1/4 t.
Total dough weight = 15.39 oz. (436.41 g.), for 14-inch pizza
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10

Did I get it right?

Peter
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 12:31:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2006, 07:51:32 AM »
Those are the right numbers.  I rounded to the nearest gram because of my scale.  I'm planning on pizza tomorrow 3/8/6 so I'll run the bag vs. bowl test then.

Actually looking closer, oil should be 4.51 g instead of 451. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 09:21:28 AM by foodblogger »

Offline scott r

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2006, 12:14:11 PM »
foodblogger, I really think you have just discovered why some of us are so crazy about Neapolitan style pizzas made with Caputo flour.  All of the characteristics that you are describing I consider to be quite normal for even a "short" rise Caputo dough.  There is no question that it is MUCH more flavorful than the normal American style flours I have put it up against. In fact, even when mixing in 20% KASL with the Caputo I notice a big loss of flavor.

Marco, correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told that in Naples (where the pizza is OUT OF THIS WORLD just about every where you go) it is actually quite common to do 7-8 hour room temp rises with fresh yeast.  A friend of mine was lucky enough to observe the dough mixing/management at one of the absolute top rated pizzerias in Naples and they were only doing a 7 hour rise. I found this suprising, but he even preferred this pizzeria with the shorter rise and fresh yeast to the most famous pizzeria that is known to do a 20 hour room temp rise with a starter.   The chemical make up of this flour is such that you can do a 7 hour room temp rise and have more than exceptional results that in my opinion blow away even a 6 day fridge rise with American flour.  I have been making IDY/Caputo doughs for the past 6 batches, and while the 20 hour room temp rise is better, the difference is much less pronounced than I thought it would be between this and the final product when I do a 20 hour rise with less yeast, or a three day cold rise.

The thing that is tricky about Caputo flour is that especially at lower temperatures doughs can easily be made tough or cracker like.  Caputo does not seem to tolerate slight errors while mixing the dough.  Foodbloger, I think your early success in your experimentation with Caputo is a testament to your skills and knowledge as a pizzaiolo.  You obviously have excellent technique, and I think your experience with this four was no accident.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 12:27:46 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2006, 12:20:16 PM »
The main reason I started to write on this forum is to address misleading information on Pizza Napoletana, the traditional methods as well as some modern variation. My objective has never been to teach someone to reproduce the pizza me and other Neapolitan masters produce in Naples because I believe that this cannot be achieved behind a keyboard. Having say that, I often read my "theories" or citations, and not always these are reported correctly and/or attributed to the real source, or again with completely wrong informations. Once again I feel the need to really make some clarity:

 
4) This may be a question for pizzanapoletana - if a poolish is used in Naples (are they?) do they subject the dough to an additional rise after combining the remaining ingredients?

This is perhaps best left to pizzanapoletana to answer but when I researched the matter some time ago I did find references to what appeared to be use of sponges or possibly a poolish, but the fermentation time was quite short, about an hour or two if memory serves me correct.

Peter


Poolish or wet sponges have never been used in Naples for pizza. The only application for that technique in Naples is for a dessert called Rum Baba, of Polish origins. Poolish is indeed used from Rome to North, but NOT in Naples.


Also, I should point out that when doing the shorter 7 hour rise times there is no need (or time even) to do the two stage fermentation that Marco reccomends for the longer fermentation doughs.


Scott, on what basis do you think that for a shorter fermentation there is no need for the 2 stages???? I won't tell you the reasons (which are indeed very important for the final results), but I would like to point out that even in the disciplinare document (that I do not support anyway), where the minimum fermentation is 6 hours, this is divided in 2 stages....

It is common unfortunatelly for many places to do a 6-8 rise, but the results are on your stomach fo many more hours... They also use often a mix of flour that would actually require a very long fermentation/maturation. Please do share which pizzeria woulld produce a better dough then the famous long rises ones. I also hope your friend that withness this process and report it back to you is not the same person I think of, because I believe he doesn't have the experience nor the knowledge to make such a judgment... and if he is the one, the process he witness is not the typical one, but is what they call quick dough (and they do prefer the longer fermentation).

I am sorry if I just reply now to the above messages, but I was just searching for something else and I came across those.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 12:29:54 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline scott r

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2006, 12:23:02 PM »
Marco,  glad to have you here to keep me on my toes!  It looks like my experience has not really brought me to the correct conclusion.  Thanks for setting this straight!

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2006, 12:36:21 PM »
Quote
All of the characteristics that you are describing I consider to be quite normal for even a "short" rise Caputo dough.  There is no question that it is MUCH more flavorful than the normal American style flours I have put it up against. In fact, even when mixing in 20% KASL with the Caputo I notice a big loss of flavor.

It was truly an amazing experience like I said.  I was not expecting the beer flavor to the crust and that is one aspect I am trying to figure out.  The other thing that was completely new to me was the texture.  Every time I have made a pie with large and variable sized voids in the rim it has ended up with basically the same texture.  Nice and chewy to make a nice foldable slice.  The Cuputo dough had the large variable sized voids, but the texture wasn't chewy.  It was a completely different experience.  I am not saying that one is better than the other, just different.  Is that texture also characteristic of the Caputo flours?

Quote
The chemical make up of this flour is such that you can do a 7 hour room temp rise and have more than exceptional results that in my opinion blow away even a 6 day fridge rise with American flour.


I have come to that conclusion as well.  The flour has evolved over several hundred years to be able to produce a pizza that people in Naples think is best using techniques that are possible and profitable in Naples.  I like the flour because it is not a flour that I have extensive experience with and working with it is a new adventure.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2006, 12:36:27 PM »
foodblogger,

Thanks for noting the error in my earlier post on the formulation you will be using. I have corrected it.

Thanks, also, Marco for clarifying the poolish/sponge issue. Maybe sometime I can find what I read and have you review it.

Peter

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2006, 12:39:33 PM »
Quote
Poolish or wet sponges have never been used in Naples for pizza. The only application for that technique in Naples is for a dessert called Rum Baba, of Polish origins. Poolish is indeed used from Rome to North, but NOT in Naples.

Pizzanapoletana, thank you very much for the information.

Quote
I won't tell you the reasons (which are indeed very important for the final results), but I would like to point out that even in the disciplinare document (that I do not support anyway), where the minimum fermentation is 6 hours, this is divided in 2 stages....

By 2 stages do you mean let the dough rise in a batch, then divide into balls and let rise separately for an additional amount of time?

Offline scott r

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Re: Basic Caputo 00 Same-Day Dough Recipe Using Commercial Yeast
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2006, 12:42:44 PM »


It is common unfortunatelly for many places to do a 6-8 rise, but the results are on your stomach fo many more hours... They also use often a mix of flour that would actually require a very long fermentation/maturation. Please do share which pizzeria woulld produce a better dough then the famous long rises ones. I also hope your friend that withness this process and report it back to you is not the same person I think of, because I believe he doesn't have the experience nor the knowledge to make such a judgment... and if he is the one, the process he witness is not the typical one, but is what they call quick dough (and they do prefer the longer fermentation).


It was not really my intention to say that the pizzeria using short fermentation dough was definitively better than the pizzeria using a long one.  I am just echoing the feelings of a fellow forum member who I will let come up to post here if he decides to do so.  I definitely prefer the longer fermentation myself, but I do find it surprising the quality that can be achieved with a short fermentation with this amazing flour. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 12:51:38 PM by scott r »


 

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