Author Topic: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project  (Read 8262 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2012, 07:54:21 AM »
Peter,

Great looking pies!   :)  I really like your rim and bottom crust browning.

Norma


Offline Essen1

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2012, 03:50:01 PM »
Peter,

Absolutely fantastic results! Congrats.

One thing, though, to make the pies even better...concentrate a bit more on the shaping & stretching when opening the skins. There's a little weak spot in the first pic's undercrust. Been there, done that and found that a properly formed skin bakes up much better, imho.

Other than that, I'm glad you're enjoying the formula so far.  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2012, 03:58:34 PM »
Here's the stone Mike uses:

http://www.ceramicssf.com/shelves-posts.htm

although I think he takes it above 600.

Here are a few more options:

http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/kilnshelves.htm
http://www.highwaterclays.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=247
http://coneartkilns.com/index.php/kiln-furniture/shelves-high-temperature-alumina.html
http://www.sheffield-pottery.com/High-Alumina-Cone-11-Kiln-Shelves-s/317.htm
http://www.dogwoodceramics.com/Products/Paragon_Kiln_Shelves.htm

Out of this list, I think the Bailey shelves show the most promise.  The reference to cone 11 is encouraging as is the 'dry pressed' reference. I am concerned about the rough surface of the shelves in the picture, though, as well as the possibility for a minimum order.

I get the feeling that even with a higher quantity of alumina, these shelves might not cut it at 580.  I've written all these companies (and more) looking for specs on their shelves, and, while most of the companies got back to me, no one has been able to give me figures. As long as you get a thick enough shelf (minimum .75" and preferably 1"), these will outperform your present shelf, but I don't think they're going to get you down to a 4 minute bake, which is where you want to be.

How long was this last bake?

Scotty,

I like what Bailey Ceramics has to offer on kiln shelves.

http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/kilnshelves.htm

I particularly like the C-170-33 (18x18x1) shelf. Not a bad price and I might have to look a bit deeper into it now that I know that my oven can hold an 18' inch steel plate/stone...

;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2012, 10:25:09 PM »
 ;D

Mike, the odds that the Bailey stone will perform significantly differently than your SF stone are pretty low, but that doesn't mean that I'm not curious. From a research perspective, it would be incredibly invaluable to see how these two stones perform with the same dough.

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 01:03:13 AM »
Peter,

Absolutely fantastic results! Congrats.

One thing, though, to make the pies even better...concentrate a bit more on the shaping & stretching when opening the skins. There's a little weak spot in the first pic's undercrust. Been there, done that and found that a properly formed skin bakes up much better, imho.

Other than that, I'm glad you're enjoying the formula so far.  ;D
Thanks.

Yeah, I definitely have a ways to go with my stretching/tossing skills.
Going to check with some local pottery supply shops this week. If that doesn't work out, I'll pick one up online.

-Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2012, 09:43:00 AM »
Peter,

Very nice looking pies you've got here.  I didn't see it in previous post but what type of flour/flours are you using here?

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2012, 06:02:01 AM »
Peter,

Very nice looking pies you've got here.  I didn't see it in previous post but what type of flour/flours are you using here?

Nate
Glad you like them Nate,

All of these were made with King Arthur bread flour. 12.7% protein

-Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2012, 02:53:42 PM »
I tried this dough formulation with the KABF yesterday and had some problems.  The dough seemed dryer than normal for a 63% hydration dough.  I mixed the oil in with the water, sugar and yeast and then added the flour and salt.   I went with it but it barely fermented after 24hrs in the fridge.  No rise whatsoever.   No clue what happened.  I have the dough balls out of the fridge now to see if that helps.

Nate
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:55:18 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2012, 10:17:28 PM »
I tried this dough formulation with the KABF yesterday and had some problems.  The dough seemed dryer than normal for a 63% hydration dough.  I mixed the oil in with the water, sugar and yeast and then added the flour and salt.   I went with it but it barely fermented after 24hrs in the fridge.  No rise whatsoever.   No clue what happened.  I have the dough balls out of the fridge now to see if that helps.

Nate
Do you know what your water temp was? or final dough temp? I tend to let mine rise a room temp for about an hour before moving it to the fridge.
Also possible your yeast is old or partially dead.


-Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2012, 12:25:46 AM »
Pythonic,

Try this one outlined here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg125785.html#msg125785

Works also very well with KABF but when using such flour increase kneading time just a tad. Don't over-knead, though!
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline pythonic

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2012, 01:04:30 AM »
Water temp was too low.  I made another batch last night and it looks much better.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2013, 01:00:17 AM »
Anyway after a few months traveling, including a week in Naples (topic coming soon), I needed to get my hands in dough.
Per my kids request I 'had' to make pizza. Luckily the local pizzeria was still ok with me buying a 6 pound block of their Arrezzio WM mozzarella.
Flour (100%)   
Water (63%)
ADY (.3%)
Salt (1.8%)
Oil (2%)
Sugar (2%)

Bulk fermented at 38F for around 30 hours, balled, then back into the fridge for 12 hours and removed an hour before baking.
Preheated for 1.5 hours (stone temp around 580F) then switched to the broiler for 30 minutes, flipping it on/off every time it would go off on its own. This brought the stone temp up to 615F!! ;D (recorded before launching the first pie).
First pie (garlic/eggplant) baked in just under 5 minutes, including 1 minute with the broiler on. The following two pies were left too long, around 5:40 and ended up a bit too crisp.


Now that I'm confident the oven can hit over 600F, it's time to order a kiln shelf. Looks like the Bailey pottery 16x18 3/4 should fit perfectly  http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/kilnshelves.htm
I don't see a WFO in the near future so I'll stick to NY for now. Good chance I'll end up back in Naples in a few months.  ;D

-Peter


Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2013, 01:01:24 AM »
Continued

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2013, 01:02:22 AM »
Garlic eggplant

Offline henkverhaar

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2013, 01:35:15 AM »
Now it's time to find a cheaper mozzarella source. $6/lbs isn't going to last long
Make your own? It's actually quite simple...

Henk

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2013, 02:07:41 AM »
Make your own? It's actually quite simple...

Henk
Something I'll look into, but for now the wholesale cheese is excellent and affordable at $2.50 a pound.

-Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2013, 08:21:40 AM »
Peter,

Your recent pies look very good!

Norma


Offline Seven

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2013, 10:12:27 AM »
Awesome looking pies! What's the "secret" to getting the cheese to look like that? I've gotten that look a few times but not consistently. Thanks!

scott123

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2013, 10:19:49 AM »
John, it's foodservice (aka Grande clone) mozz, in this case, Arrezzio.

The difference in quality between wholesale cheese and retail cheese is night and day.  You can, with a little luck, and some additional fat/oil, get a supermarket cheese to melt like this, but it's not easy.

Offline Seven

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2013, 10:33:46 AM »
Thanks, Scott! I don't want to take this thread off course but would you describe the Restaurant Depot brand as a Grande clone?

scott123

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2013, 10:57:54 AM »
John, yes. I can't vouch for the taste of RD, not having tried it, but I have yet to come across a wholesale mozzarella that didn't look like this when melted.

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2013, 11:49:17 AM »
Peter, as always, beautiful looking pies.

Pizza bakes with stored heat, not just the heat on the surface of the stone. While using the broiler to pre-heat the stone might drive up the surface temp, it doesn't drive up the core temp, and the core temp is where it really matters.  I'm not telling you to nix the broiler re-heat- it does trim a little from the bake time, but the 615 benchmark that you hit is not a realistic representation of what the oven is capable of.  If I had to guess, I'd say that the broiler gave you an effective bump of about 5 degrees, putting you at 585.

My feelings are shifting a bit on high alumina kiln shelves.  There are no regulations governing how the shelves are labeled or what they can contain.  I'm not talking about safety. Kiln shelves are safe to bake on.  But the term 'high alumina' doesn't necessarily mean much, nor do the other claims on the Bailey website.  Someone definitely needs to, at some point, test the Bailey shelves, but between the fact that they haven't been proven and your low-ish 585 peak temp, I don't think that person should be you. It's too much of a crapshoot.  Mike's SF shelf is a proven performer. I can't guarantee you how much time it's going to trim, but at least, unlike Bailey, it has a track record.  If you want to go the ceramic route, that's the stone I'd go with.   If, on the other hand, you want to guarantee a 4 minute bake, then I'd suggest steel.  One nice thing about steel is that, with your 585 peak temp, you don't have to buy as heavy of a stone as other members here have.  You should be able to get away with 3/8" steel.

All THAT being said :)  another thing to consider is that there may not be a reason to trim any more time off the bake.  I generally push people towards 4 minute bakes when their oven setup is producing 7+ minute pies.  5 minute pies, though, that look as good as yours?  If you're curious about a slightly shorter bake time, sure, make the investment, but you might not see a vast improvement.  Also, if crispiness is important you, then 4 might not even be the right direction, as the crust will soften up as you decrease the bake time.

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2013, 03:35:07 PM »
Peter,
Your recent pies look very good!
Norma
Thanks!

Awesome looking pies! What's the "secret" to getting the cheese to look like that? I've gotten that look a few times but not consistently. Thanks!
Thanks Seven. The key to the cheese looking like that is lots of bottom heat, low thickness factor and food service mozzarella, as Scott said. It is pitiful how bad retail WM low moisture mozzarella tastes/melts.
Peter, as always, beautiful looking pies.

Pizza bakes with stored heat, not just the heat on the surface of the stone. While using the broiler to pre-heat the stone might drive up the surface temp, it doesn't drive up the core temp, and the core temp is where it really matters.  I'm not telling you to nix the broiler re-heat- it does trim a little from the bake time, but the 615 benchmark that you hit is not a realistic representation of what the oven is capable of.  If I had to guess, I'd say that the broiler gave you an effective bump of about 5 degrees, putting you at 585.

My feelings are shifting a bit on high alumina kiln shelves.  There are no regulations governing how the shelves are labeled or what they can contain.  I'm not talking about safety. Kiln shelves are safe to bake on.  But the term 'high alumina' doesn't necessarily mean much, nor do the other claims on the Bailey website.  Someone definitely needs to, at some point, test the Bailey shelves, but between the fact that they haven't been proven and your low-ish 585 peak temp, I don't think that person should be you. It's too much of a crapshoot.  Mike's SF shelf is a proven performer. I can't guarantee you how much time it's going to trim, but at least, unlike Bailey, it has a track record.  If you want to go the ceramic route, that's the stone I'd go with.   If, on the other hand, you want to guarantee a 4 minute bake, then I'd suggest steel.  One nice thing about steel is that, with your 585 peak temp, you don't have to buy as heavy of a stone as other members here have.  You should be able to get away with 3/8" steel.

All THAT being said :)  another thing to consider is that there may not be a reason to trim any more time off the bake.  I generally push people towards 4 minute bakes when their oven setup is producing 7+ minute pies.  5 minute pies, though, that look as good as yours?  If you're curious about a slightly shorter bake time, sure, make the investment, but you might not see a vast improvement.  Also, if crispiness is important you, then 4 might not even be the right direction, as the crust will soften up as you decrease the bake time.
Thanks for the kind words Scott. Soon after you posted I had the opportunity to hunt for a piece of steel. The only 1/2 inch a36 they had on the lot, was pitted and rusted. So instead I had them cut a 3/8 16x17.5" stainless plate. I know it won't be near as conductive but should make for some interesting experiments. It's in the oven preheating now. If it isn't useful as a 'stone' it will become my new prep surface.

-Peter
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 04:01:09 PM by PetersPizza »

Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2013, 04:55:30 PM »
First SS bake...it works ;D

Preheated for around an hour and 15 minutes to 586F...really surprised how quick it heated up.
I had one dough ball left from last night made out of 00.
100% 500g Caputo Pizzeria
65%   325g Water
2%     10g  Sea salt
.6%    3g   Active dry yeast
279 per ball.
Both pies were stretched to about 13.5", very thin.
Last night's pie was baked on the stone for just over 5 minutes, with the broiler on for the final minute.
Today's pizza baked on the SS for 4 minutes 10 seconds(my time keeper was home from school), with the broiler on for the final minute.
The difference is amazing...the SS pie came out perfectly tender and slightly crisp without any bottom burning.

Next batch will be a NY dough with KABF.


Couldn't be happier with this SS plate.

-Peter
First two pictures are of last nights pizza.




Offline PetersPizza

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Re: Second NY Style Experiment Based on Essen1's Pizza Project
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2013, 04:57:07 PM »
Stainless pie