Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie

[jeffereynelson]

Nice purchases, those should go a long way in helping you. $30 bucks of investment for the hours and hours of work you will be putting in is very worth it.

[zelichan]

Nice purchases, those should go a long way in helping you. $30 bucks of investment for the hours and hours of work you will be putting in is very worth it.

Thanks. I felt like $30 wasn't to much coin to drop for trying to improve. I hope it improves my pizza greatly.

Now all I have to do is figure out how the whole baker ratios thing works. 

The items arrived last nite. Here's a picture....

[Pete-zza]

Now all I have to do is figure out how the whole baker ratios thing works. 

zelichan,

You might check out the two baker's percents links in the post at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20969.msg210254/topicseen.html#msg210254.

Peter

[jeffereynelson]

Thanks. I felt like $30 wasn't to much coin to drop for trying to improve. I hope it improves my pizza greatly.

Now all I have to do is figure out how the whole baker ratios thing works. 

The items arrived last nite. Here's a picture....

With a scale bakers percentages are much easier to work with than measuring. Just put a bowl on the scale and fill it until you get the correct weight. Use the dough tool on the home page of this site to get your recipe amounts.

[zelichan]

With a scale bakers percentages are much easier to work with than measuring. Just put a bowl on the scale and fill it until you get the correct weight. Use the dough tool on the home page of this site to get your recipe amounts.

Okay I guess I was in Mad scientist mode tonite. I used the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator and punched in the numbers. I went for kinda [I hope] middle of the road. I used "bread machine" yeast. I'm not sure what type it is. I let the Kitchen aid kneed it for 7~8 minutes. It's in a plastic container in the fridge now. I'm guessing I'll make pizza tomorrow night or Saturday. I don't know if it's some mental thing but It seems like this dough is already better than the previous attempts.

Wish me luck.

Here's a screen shot at the percentages:

[scott123]

Z, for KABF, unless you're at a high elevation, I think 64% might be a little high. I would shoot for between 60-62%

Also, for Neapolitan pizza, salt should be between 2% and 3% and for NY, it should be between 1.5% and 2%. Since you're working with a NY style flour and oven setup, I'd go with between 1.5% and 2% salt.

[jeffereynelson]

If you are only making two pizza from that batch, those will be huge pizzas.

[zelichan]

Z, for KABF, unless you're at a high elevation, I think 64% might be a little high. I would shoot for between 60-62%

Also, for Neapolitan pizza, salt should be between 2% and 3% and for NY, it should be between 1.5% and 2%. Since you're working with a NY style flour and oven setup, I'd go with between 1.5% and 2% salt.

Thanks for the input. I'll adjust on the next batch.

[zelichan]

If you are only making two pizza from that batch, those will be huge pizzas.

It's suppose to be enough dough for  (3) 14" dia. pizzas. We'll see as it progresses.

Here's a shot of the dough going into the container.
I put it on top of the yellow lid for contrast.

[zelichan]

Okay I cooked up the pizza tonite. I learned a lot in this one cooking. I should have let the dough rest some more before I went to cooking. My oven is slow to heat the stone up. I should give it 1.5 hours before starting to cook. I have to let the pies cook longer. The first pizza could have baked a little longer. My oven temp said it was 550 degree. The digital therm clocked the stone at 506 degrees.

I made this sauce to put on the pizza instead of the old store bought. It turned out good.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,994.0.html

Here's some shots. Please comment and critic so I may improve.

Thanks

[scott123]

Z, nice job on the onion/pepper pie. I think that's your best to date.

Was this an hour pre-heat? A 506 stone after an hour pre-heat is not a good sign.  It's fairly rare that a 550 dial temp oven misses the mark by that much.  Hopefully another half hour will drive up the temp considerably more.

Have you tried the sacrificial dough ball stretch practice that we talked about?  It looks like your stretching skills are improving, but I think you still have a ways to go. Are the dough balls perfectly round coming out of the container?  If they aren't then perhaps you need to oil the container a bit more so the dough doesn't get mangled and/or use a different container.

Are you storing the dough balls in the closed containers until they are ready to stretch? The first photo looks like the dough had air contact and might have skinned over.

Were these stretched to 14"?  I think it's time to decrease your dough ball size and to stretch your dough further. You should also focus on pressing out a smaller rim during the stretch.

What was the bake time for these?

Btw, for the style you're making, you don't want to cook the sauce. Nor do you want lemon juice, dried basil or thyme.  At it's simplest, sauce should be uncooked tomatoes, salt, and sugar. You can sprinkle the oregano on the pizza or add it to the sauce.  That's it.

[Chicago Bob]

Jus want to take a moment here to say that you are a really good instructor/teacher/helper Scott (sound of crowd applauding)....very nice what you do. 

[zelichan]

Z, nice job on the onion/pepper pie. I think that's your best to date.

Thanks. That was a great pizza. I really scored points with the wifey on that one. BTW: I was worried about the water content of the toppings so I roasted them on a pan while the stone heated up. It was so much better than the normal soupy return I usually get.

Was this an hour pre-heat? A 506 stone after an hour pre-heat is not a good sign.  It's fairly rare that a 550 dial temp oven misses the mark by that much.  Hopefully another half hour will drive up the temp considerably more.

Okay, I'll admit I'm stupid.  The one hour is while the oven is pre-heating as well. I think you are right about the extra 1/2 hour. It seems as if the pizzas get better towards the end of the baking session. I think I'll just put the stone in. Turn on the oven. When the pre-heat light goes off then I'll take a reading. If it's not up to par I'll wait a 1/2 hour more.

Have you tried the sacrificial dough ball stretch practice that we talked about?  It looks like your stretching skills are improving, but I think you still have a ways to go. Are the dough balls perfectly round coming out of the container?  If they aren't then perhaps you need to oil the container a bit more so the dough doesn't get mangled and/or use a different container.

Yes. In fact I was going all out tossing the dough up in the air and enjoying the cook even though I'm sure I looked like an idiot. One thing that I didn't do is separate the balls before the cold fermentation. It was all together in one big ball. I did oil the container with olive oil. I used about a tablespoon. I'll be searching for some smaller containers to separated the dough balls into.

I noticed that the dough contracts when I stretch it out as well. Why does it do that? I would get the dough stretched out beautifully then it would contract. I'd have to stretch it out again. Is this due to not letting it sit out at room temperature long enough?

Are you storing the dough balls in the closed containers until they are ready to stretch? The first photo looks like the dough had air contact and might have skinned over.

I didn't put the lid on tightly as I thought it was supposed to release some gas as it got bigger. So I should keep the lid on tightly while in the fridge?

Were these stretched to 14"?  I think it's time to decrease your dough ball size and to stretch your dough further. You should also focus on pressing out a smaller rim during the stretch.

No they were around 12" dia by the time I cooked them. The dough kept contracting. To be honest around 12" is about the limit of my peel. I have to upgrade in that area. I understand what you are saying about the rim. It was ridiculous how it puffed up. 

What was the bake time for these?

I didn't time them. Sorry, I'll have to remember to do that next time. If I had to guess I'd say around 6~8 minutes.

Btw, for the style you're making, you don't want to cook the sauce. Nor do you want lemon juice, dried basil or thyme.  At it's simplest, sauce should be uncooked tomatoes, salt, and sugar. You can sprinkle the oregano on the pizza or add it to the sauce.  That's it.

Thanks for the tip. This was actually my first attempt at making a sauce. I will try as you say on the next batch.

Scott, I really appreciate you taking the time from your weekend to help me out. I feel as if I've made major strides with this last cooking session. I know I need serious help to improve. I'm sure with your suggestions and guidance I'll get better.
Thanks again,
Z

[scott123]

Bob, thanks for the kind words.

Z, you're going to get different opinions when it comes to pre-cooking vegetable toppings, but I'm definitely in the pre-cook camp.

You'll want to pre-heat the stone well past when the pre-heat light goes off. My pre-heat light goes off and on at least 3 times during my hour pre-heat.  Put the stone in the oven close the door, crank the heat and don't open the door for 90 minutes.

You also want to ball a minimum of 6 hours prior to stretching, or, as you found out, the dough will fight you on the stretch.  I make the dough, ball it, refrigerate it for a day, re-ball it, and then refrigerate another day- 24 hours between balling and forming.

Some container lids, when on firmly, will allow sufficient gas to escape, but some will be situated so tightly that pressure will form and the lid can pop.  A good insurance policy is poking a very tiny hole in the lid with a pin.


You have made tremendous strides and I have no doubt that if you  continue to approach this as conscientiously as you have been, you'll continue to make tremendous strides.

[zelichan]

Bob, thanks for the kind words.

Z, you're going to get different opinions when it comes to pre-cooking vegetable toppings, but I'm definitely in the pre-cook camp.

You'll want to pre-heat the stone well past when the pre-heat light goes off. My pre-heat light goes off and on at least 3 times during my hour pre-heat.  Put the stone in the oven close the door, crank the heat and don't open the door for 90 minutes.

You also want to ball a minimum of 6 hours prior to stretching, or, as you found out, the dough will fight you on the stretch.  I make the dough, ball it, refrigerate it for a day, re-ball it, and then refrigerate another day- 24 hours between balling and forming.

Some container lids, when on firmly, will allow sufficient gas to escape, but some will be situated so tightly that pressure will form and the lid can pop.  A good insurance policy is poking a very tiny hole in the lid with a pin.


You have made tremendous strides and I have no doubt that if you  continue to approach this as conscientiously as you have been, you'll continue to make tremendous strides.

I can not thank you enough for your help. I've got the feeling with the help I'm getting I'll get to a good point in pizza making soon.

I have a question. When you get that
I make the dough, ball it, refrigerate it for a day, re-ball it, and then refrigerate another day- 24 hours between balling and forming.  How long do you let it sit out of the fridge before you make the pizza? It has to get to room temperature, right?

[scott123]

Z, tempering (leaving the dough at room temp prior to forming), can be a complicated subject.  I think the general consensus on the forum is to take most of the chill off the dough, but not all the chill off of it. I seem to recall seeing numbers in the 55-60 deg. realm.

My approach, in this regard, is not quite so exacting. I've done tests with doughs ranging from 45 deg. to 80 deg. and, while cooler temps seem to give me larger blisters- blisters that I tend to like, I really haven't noticed a huge difference between the different temps.

I also have had doughs that haven't risen quite as much as I've wanted by the time they came out of the fridge, so I've used an extended warm up time (and higher final temp) as a way of ramping up fermentation at the end.

I would try a few different temps and see what you like. It really isn't as cut and dry as some members portray it to be.

[Pete-zza]

Z,

I agree with scott123's answer to your question. Some of the larger pizza chains specify a temperature of around 55 degrees F in their manuals but I have never seen any worker measuring the temperature of dough balls. The actual temper time can vary quite widely. For example, all else being equal, in most places the dough will warm up (temper) faster in the summer than in the winter. The most common temper time that I have seen is about 1 1/2-2 hours, but that time can vary throughout the year. Over time, you will learn what works best in your setting. You will know from the look and feel when the dough is ready. However, the look and feel can and will vary for different types of doughs. There are just too many variables, especially in a home setting, to be able to give one-size-fits-all types of answers.

Peter

[zelichan]

Z, tempering (leaving the dough at room temp prior to forming), can be a complicated subject.  I think the general consensus on the forum is to take most of the chill off the dough, but not all the chill off of it. I seem to recall seeing numbers in the 55-60 deg. realm.

My approach, in this regard, is not quite so exacting. I've done tests with doughs ranging from 45 deg. to 80 deg. and, while cooler temps seem to give me larger blisters- blisters that I tend to like, I really haven't noticed a huge difference between the different temp.

I also have had doughs that haven't risen quite as much as I've wanted by the time they came out of the fridge, so I've used an extended warm up time (and higher final temp) as a way of ramping up fermentation at the end.

I would try a few different temps and see what you like. It really isn't as cut and dry as some members portray it to be.

Thanks for the reply. I think I understand. I guess my most annoying thing to get past now is the contracting of the dough. That's a major annoyance as I have the thing stretched to perfection (in my mind) then it contracts back. It's like peeing in the ocean trying to stop the tide. 

Z,

I agree with scott123's answer to your question. Some of the larger pizza chains specify a temperature of around 55 degrees F in their manuals but I have never seen any worker measuring the temperature of dough balls. The actual temper time can vary quite widely. For example, all else being equal, in most places the dough will warm up (temper) faster in the summer than in the winter. The most common temper time that I have seen is about 1 1/2-2 hours, but that time can vary throughout the year. Over time, you will learn what works best in your setting. You will know from the look and feel when the dough is ready. However, the look and feel can and will vary for different types of doughs. There are just too many variables, especially in a home setting, to be able to give one-size-fits-all types of answers.

Thanks for the input. I guess it's a matter of practice makes perfect then. I'll have to get to making pizza.

[moose13]

Looking better!
My best looking and tasting pizzas have a 3 day ferment. Don't get in a hurry here.
One thing you can try if you run into the white crust edge again. Get a paper towel and rub some olive oil on it.
If your cheese is looking done but want some color and crunch to the crust, Take your pie out, apply some oil around the crust edge, launch back into the oven for a minute or two. Cheating i know, but at least if you find yourself with cheese browning and white crust, you can help it along.

Practice makes perfect.

[zelichan]

Looking better!
My best looking and tasting pizzas have a 3 day ferment. Don't get in a hurry here.
One thing you can try if you run into the white crust edge again. Get a paper towel and rub some olive oil on it.
If your cheese is looking done but want some color and crunch to the crust, Take your pie out, apply some oil around the crust edge, launch back into the oven for a minute or two. Cheating i know, but at least if you find yourself with cheese browning and white crust, you can help it along.

Practice makes perfect.

Thanks for the tip! I'm going to try to make some dough tonite. It'll be a 3 dayer as I'll cook Saturday nite. I wonder what the time limit is for cold fermenting?