temp ranges for pizza types

[lennyk]

has there ever been a temp/time range for optimal pizza types ?
ie what would be considered optimal deck temp and time for a NY pie ?
likewise a Neapolitan.

[TXCraig1]

Neo: ~900F, <60 seconds, IMO.

[scott123]

Lenny, temperature is relative.  You can get a 60 second Neapolitan pizza on a steel hearth at 675 and an identical 60 second pizza on firebrick at 900. It all boils down to the thermal mass and conductivity of the hearth material. And this is just hearth temp. Due to the superior heat transfer of convection as compared to radiation, the ceiling always has to be at least a few hundred degrees hotter- although you can minimize this difference by bringing the ceiling closer to the pizza.

While there are some people out there that love a dense, somewhat bready, crispy-exteriored NY style pie, I think most people, if given the chance to try them, either lean towards a 4 minute soft and puffy crust or a 5-6 minute crispier crust.  There's also a smaller group that enjoys their NY style pizza with a little char- you get more of that in 3 minutes.

[TXCraig1]

Identical?

[scott123]

Okay, I remember now  I base my skepticism of aluminum on steel producing an almost imperceptible difference, which I think most people wouldn't notice. So, let me qualify that statement- identical, for most.

But 60 seconds on one material will always pretty much match 60 seconds on another material, as long as you dial in the right temp.

[TXCraig1]

Okay, I remember now  I base my skepticism of aluminum on steel producing an almost imperceptible difference, which I think most people wouldn't notice. So, let me qualify that statement- identical, for most.

But 60 seconds on one material will always pretty much match 60 seconds on another material, as long as you dial in the right temp.

But 60 seconds on firebrick at 900F conductive is balanced with 900-1100F radiant hitting it from the other directions. How do you balance the 675 hyper-conductive bottom over the rest of the pie?

[scott123]

Craig, I'm talking about undercrust leoparding only (via the hearth):

You can get a 60 second Neapolitan pizza on a steel hearth at 675 and an identical 60 second pizza on firebrick at 900.

If the bottom bakes in 60 seconds, then you have to have the necessary top heat to match that (freakishly strong broiler or WFO dome). The top heat is relative as well, as I mentioned before.  1200 dome heat at a 15" distance might be able to be matched at 1000 with a 4" distance. Hearths give you a greater amount of control with different materials, whereas dome heat is much less forgiving.  Going with a darker dome color might buy you a little more radiant impact, but your only real option is trimming the distance- and you don't get as much of a bump in distance that you get with more conductive hearth materials.

This is why Neapolitan in a home oven always boils down to the broiler, since there's almost always going to be a hearth material that will give you the necessary undercrust leoparding at typical oven temps.

[Don K]

Craig, I'm talking about undercrust leoparding only (via the hearth):

If the bottom bakes in 60 seconds, then you have to have the necessary top heat to match that (freakishly strong broiler or WFO dome). The top heat is relative as well, as I mentioned before.  1200 dome heat at a 15" distance might be able to be matched at 1000 with a 4" distance. Hearths give you a greater amount of control with different materials, whereas dome heat is much less forgiving.  Going with a darker dome color might buy you a little more radiant impact, but your only real option is trimming the distance- and you don't get as much of a bump in distance that you get with more conductive hearth materials.

This is why Neapolitan in a home oven always boils down to the broiler, since there's almost always going to be a hearth material that will give you the necessary undercrust leoparding at typical oven temps.

There are WFO's with a 4" dome height?

[TXCraig1]

Craig, I'm talking about undercrust leoparding only (via the hearth):

If the bottom bakes in 60 seconds, then you have to have the necessary top heat to match that (freakishly strong broiler or WFO dome). The top heat is relative as well, as I mentioned before.  1200 dome heat at a 15" distance might be able to be matched at 1000 with a 4" distance. Hearths give you a greater amount of control with different materials, whereas dome heat is much less forgiving.  Going with a darker dome color might buy you a little more radiant impact, but your only real option is trimming the distance- and you don't get as much of a bump in distance that you get with more conductive hearth materials.

This is why Neapolitan in a home oven always boils down to the broiler, since there's almost always going to be a hearth material that will give you the necessary undercrust leoparding at typical oven temps.

I don't disagree that it can be done, but not at one temperature like the question asked. You need radically different temps above and below if you want a 675 hearth. That's why the Neapolitan WFO is ideally suited for NP pizza, right? At 900F on the fire bricks, the 900F temp above is perfect (taking intoconsideration proper heating of the oven mass, flames, etc.

[norma427]

lennyk,

This is just my opinions for a NY style pizza.  I have tried many different formulations and they all produce different results at the same temperature.  Some formulations brown the top and bottoms crust differently.  Also what TF I use can make differences in how the pies bake.  I mostly bake in a deck oven and even can see many different looking pizzas coming out of the same oven.  For some examples, how much hydration the formulation might have, TF, oil amounts, flours used and many other variables can come into play.  Most of my pizzas are baked around 540-587 degrees F, depending on what place I put the pizza on the deck, how much I change positions on the deck, how many pies are going in and out of the oven and even how much I rotate the pies. 

Norma

[scott123]

There are WFO's with a 4" dome height?

In theory, a WFO could be built with a 4" dome, but I'm referring to 4" with a home oven broiler.

[scott123]

I don't disagree that it can be done, but not at one temperature like the question asked. You need radically different temps above and below if you want a 675 hearth. That's why the Neapolitan WFO is ideally suited for NP pizza, right? At 900F on the fire bricks, the 900F temp above is perfect (taking intoconsideration proper heating of the oven mass, flames, etc.

Are you sure the question asked relates to one temperature for both deck and dome?

what would be considered optimal deck temp and time for a NY pie ?

As far as one single temp working for a WFO, ie, 900 hearth and 900 ceiling, there's no way that could produce an even Neapolitan bake.  The bottom would scorch before the top was done.  I guess, in theory, if you started with a cool 900ish ceiling and ramped up the flame quickly, you could match top and bottom, but the temp of the flame would need to be averaged into the dome temp. Top heat is a combination of stored heat and active flame, both of which have to be measured.

[TXCraig1]

I think you are implicitly equating air temperature with radiant heat. I could get the floor and air in my oven up to 900 in a couple hours - maybe less, but the walls would only be a couple hundred and the pies would be white on top after 60 seconds. If the floor and walls are all 900, it will be browned on top.

Yes, I'm taking a simplistic view on this, and yes, you can probably cook a similar pie other ways, though I would have to see and try one in person before I will concede it is "identical." My point was a simple one and not intended to be nuanced. IMHO, a WFO running at a well saturated 900F is going to bake the best NP pies and it will take about 60 seconds or even a little less.

[scott123]

Craig, I don't ever look at air temperature.  Air temp is insignificant in fast baked pizza- at least in non LBE settings. A probe that measures the temp of the air flowing over the top of the pizza in an LBE might be useful, but air temps in almost all other settings are pretty much meaningless. Convection heat is influenced by air temp and convection is a player in WFO/other ovens, but, in these environments, the rate of the air flow is far more important than the temperature, since the air temp, assuming the oven has been built to the proper specifications, should be relatively static in relation to dome and hearth temps.

Fast baking pizza ovens aren't really ovens, at least not in the sense of pre-heating an oven and having the hot convective air bake a cake.  They're more along the lines of combo torches/hotplates.  The hotplate/hearth gets pre-heated and stores all the heat for the undercrust, while the torch (flame + heat stored in dome) rains down IR from above. In this equation, air temp plays almost no role. Even the hearth pre-heats primarily via IR and conduction.

Instead of baking a cake, you're broiling and frying a cake.

If the floor and walls are all 900, it will be browned on top.

Do you mean the floor and non fire side wall?  If the ceiling is 900 or the fire side wall is 900 you will not have proper browning on top.

Since air temp tends to be a bit of hassle to measure and fire temp is generally unmeasurable with typical IR thermometers, I converse in hearth temps and dome temps (and fire size/intensity).  I generally don't pay much attention to wall temps because the fire wall and non fire wall will vary tremendously and because the dome temps and hearth temps should be enough to give you a good idea where the walls are at.