Author Topic: Earthstone 110 or FGM?  (Read 16797 times)

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Offline Reep

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Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« on: September 19, 2012, 04:47:39 PM »
After searching quite a bit, I am down to two specific models that would work for me and would love input from anyone experienced with these or similar models.  This WFO will be part of an outdoor kitchen, where I have lots of space to work with.  I am interested in Neapolitan and California-style pizza and will be cooking for family and small parties at our home.  Pizza will be 90% of the use.  5% for bread making and 5% for other misc experimentation. 

Specifically this is what I'm looking at:

Earthstone 110
43" diameter circular cooking surface
solid build quality
more mass than FGM
higher dome
local builder

FGM FT1350C Lateral
Oval footprint: Wider and shorter than Earthstone
Lower dome
less mass

Price is close enough to be equal.  I know both builders are highly respected. I'm sure I would be happy with either oven, but the nuances between the two require more experience than I have to evaluate.

My main question is does the lower dome and wider/shorter footprint create an advantage?  And what about the lower mass?   


Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 05:01:25 PM »
I should note too that I love Robyn's installation, but the issues she had with the FGM baking tiles causes me a bit of concern.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 05:57:10 PM »
The baking tiles, as Robyn found out, are easy to replace, and, from what I can tell, not indicative of any larger issues with the FGMs.

How large are these parties going to be?  Both of these ovens have about 10 sq. feet of interior real estate.  You may need that much space in a commercial environment, with a team of people making pizzas, but, in a home setting, it seems a bit much.  Both of these ovens are going to suck up wood like there's no tomorrow and take a very long time to pre-heat.

I'm not entirely sold on the FT1350C, though.  The shape, door size and dome height all feel a bit off.  If you can deal with the size, I think the 950 is a better choice.  Better dimensions, faster pre-heats, less wood.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 06:06:02 PM by scott123 »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 06:27:33 PM »
Mostly smaller dinner parties (3 families), but I could see going big (50-100) once or twice a year.  I don't want to suck up wood needlessly, but I do have a lot of space to work with.  I have just read so many reviews of people with <1100 square inch ovens who seem to wish they had more room to work with.  This is going to be a major installation built into a big outdoor kitchen and I don't want to wish I would have gone bigger.

In Earthstone, the 90 would be the next option and it seems too small.  At FGM, there are the 1350 and 1500 series, which are about the same size as the Earthstone 110, but the 950 is 2/3 the size.

ES 90: 961 square inch
ES 110: 1451 square inch
FGM 950: 1085 square inch
FGM 1350: 1441 square inch

The FGM 950B is a real possibility.  Probably the size I should get, and would probably do all I needed.  I just don't want to cut short when I have the funds and space to go a bit bigger.  Still thinking.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 07:35:10 PM by Reep »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 07:37:07 PM »
BTW, attached is the face plan for the oven.  I might raise the pizza oven height up a bit (I'm 6'1").

Offline RobynB

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 08:37:52 PM »
Smaller dinner parties, the 950B would be fine.  For feeding 50 people the oven isn't what would slow me down, it's the prep  :P   If I had someone to make the pies and someone to serve them, I could crank them out in the 950.  Antoine says the floor tiles in newer models are superior to the ones we got, my oven was imported years ago.  I have no idea how the shape of the oval one would affect cooking, never seen it.  Feel free to contact me with any specific questions. 

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 09:26:21 PM »
Smaller dinner parties, the 950B would be fine.  For feeding 50 people the oven isn't what would slow me down, it's the prep  :P   If I had someone to make the pies and someone to serve them, I could crank them out in the 950.  Antoine says the floor tiles in newer models are superior to the ones we got, my oven was imported years ago.  I have no idea how the shape of the oval one would affect cooking, never seen it.  Feel free to contact me with any specific questions. 

Thanks Robyn.  The one thing I also like about the 950 is the price would allow me to go for the brick version, which I have to admit looks great in your pictures.  Honestly, I can't imagine cooking more than two pies at a time.  I just like the idea of extra space as a buffer, or extra space if I want to do different things.  Having said that, I will also have a 56" high temp grill and a big wood barbecue to handle extra food too.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 10:30:17 PM »
Reep I own an earthstone 90 now for 6-7 years in the back yard I also have a 40" forno bravo on a trailer Mobile WFO Flirting with Fire http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14533.0.html here and I have also recently cooked in the FGM 950B

1st off I love my earthstone ! its big enough for most parties the floor tiles are great and it holds heat like a dream

With the forno mobile its a 100 or 40 " floor ( the 950 seemed as big?) I am able make a decent dare I say Neapolitan pie as well with a little coaxing :) .  Most all parties I do are right  in the 50 person range and the oven is PLENTY big for that ! we are talking 90 second pizzas here. Like Robyn said its not the oven slowing me down you have to stretch and top each pie then bake.  can do 3 12" easy  at a time in there if I could keep up with the making

The FGM 950
I loved the way it cooked felt like a mercedes compared to  a hundyia or Kia (allthough they are making some great rides now) just feels solid! hard to describe. the lower dome was not treally noticable and did not affect greatly cooking times or outcome that I could see once the cooking started. I really like the brick finish as well nicest looking oven by far
the Lateral ovens are great for bigger production but trust me you dont need that kinda room when are you going to lay out 2 rows of 4 pies accross  and cook em?? this takes some mad skills as well! I did not catch you woodfired oven or pizza making experience mentioned just which ovens you want ?? with a lateral fire is designed to  go on the back staight in from the oven door / what I dont like about that is you dont see ! I like to viewthe one side as it cooks and control the turning based on hot its cooking and not be blind  just a thought
Its a really tough choice for me between the 2 but I have to go with the 950B it WILL do whatever you ask of it If you have an need for bigger od if budget and ego are bigger my vote goes to the earthstone 110 (what about the 1030FGM?) but I am not sure why a homeoner would really require such an oven? I would vote no on the bigger FGM
Feel free to reach out with any questions you may Have I am here to help
John
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 10:46:46 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 10:42:24 PM »
You are blessed that money is no object so getting wood or having someone cut, split and stack it is probably no biggy either but heat up time  should be a consideration ?? Bigger ovens eat more wood require more wood to maintain heat  AND take longer to heat up to cooking tem 800+ on the floor. My mobile I canget to temp in 1 hr because I am basically heating the dome and the tiles no real mass. My earthstone 90 likes a good 2 hours the FGM 950 !:45+ also The 110  ? no idea?? but solid 2 hrs no matter what they say TXcraig heats up for 10+ hours or more sometimes before cooking ! Oh and I have no expreience with the 1350.  so its about the look you want and as mentioned bigger is not allways better  If you were talking Eaststone vs. forno hands down Earthstone Just my opinion  but you have 2 nice ovens come to New Jersey and cook in both !  :chef:
John
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 10:54:07 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 10:47:47 PM »
You are blessed that money is no object so getting wood or having someone cut, split and stack it is probably no biggy either but heat up time  should be a consideration ?? Bigger ovens eat more wood require more wood to maintain heat  AND take longer to heat up to cooking tem 800+ on the floor. My mobile I canget to temp in 1 hr because I am basically heating the dome and the tiles no real mass. My earthstone 90 likes a good 2 hours the FGM 950 !:45+ also The 110  ? no idea?? but solid 2 hrs no matter what they say TXcraig heats up for 4 hours or more sometimes before cooking ! Oh and I have no expreience with the 1350.  so its about the look you want and as mentioned bigger is not allways better  If you were talking Eaststone vs. forno hands down Earthstone Just my opinion  but you have 2 nice ovens come to New Jersey and cook in both !  :chef:
John

4 hours? I wish. Try 10 hours, and more would be better.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 10:55:27 PM »
ok fixedsorry my friend I thought I saw a 4 hr # somewhere ant some point ? probably dreaming  ???
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 11:45:51 PM »
Well, my pizza making experience is off and on for 30 years, but my WBO experience is zero.  Most of my recent work is just getting the oven up as hot as I can and going from there.  This is why I like the recommendations.  I was leaning toward the 110, but the 950 is probably perfect for me.  Plenty of space, good reputation and does look fantastic.  Fortunately, I don't need a big oven to feel good.  I just want to make sure I get one big enough to not regret going too small.  Sounds like the 950B would be plenty big for those needs.  I'm pretty much cooking solo, so probably will also be limited by prep time.

Here is some of my electric oven pizza (wheat crust, not too bad)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 12:01:33 AM by Reep »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 12:25:59 AM »
You have spoken with Antione right at Breadstoneovens.com hes the FGM dealer in the USA
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 12:20:31 PM »
You have spoken with Antione right at Breadstoneovens.com hes the FGM dealer in the USA


Yes.  He has sent me quotes and we have discussed the options.  Just need to make a decision now.

On a lightly different note, what oven height would be recommended for a 6'1" cook?  I was considering placing a cutout of an opening on the wall and seeing where would be best to view it and to operate a peel in it.  probably with the oven floor around 4'?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 12:43:08 PM by Reep »

Offline RobynB

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 01:12:35 PM »
Definitely mock something up and see what feels right.  I'm 5'2" and went with 42" height, and I'm happy with it.  You're almost a foot taller than I am, and you're suggesting 48" which is only 6 inches higher.  John (Conklin) is tall and his is pretty high - ask him the exact height.  You want it comfortable for loading, turning, and pulling, but also you need to be able to see in there without bending too far over. 

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 05:19:27 PM »
Still trying to evaluate here.  Ground is broken on the project, so I have to pick something soon.  Current thinking:

FGM 1350 lateral: love the look and reputation, and Antione has been great.  The low dome height should not be too limiting for me.  I wouldn't mind the higher dome option, but that also raises the door to 11.5" tall, which seems too tall compared to the more typical 10" doors.  I like the idea of having more width away from the fire to experiment with cooking placement.  Not sure if the wide shape harms convection any, but likely not.

Earthstone 110: Probably bigger than I need, but the best bargain of the bunch.  Refractory interior isn't as pretty as the FGM, but that's part of why it's less $$.  

Marra Forni (by Cirigliano Forni): still checking to see the price of the oven kit only.  The fully assembled, ready-to-go unit is more $$ than the others, but would save me a lot of time, which would be nice.  Quality seems stellar.  The look of the FGM with size and mass of the Earthstone (and the price of both combined).

Any more thoughts are welcome.  I'll let you know what I find out about the Marra Forni shell price.

One of the more confusing elements is the only Italian oven has the highest dome height (16").  Also, the difference between the dome height and the top of the door varies greatly (1.5" for the FGM, 6" for the Marra Forni).  This would seem to have a dramatic difference on how much of the hottest air is held in the dome, but people seem to like both and I can't see a lot of difference in the pizzas made by either.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 08:06:15 PM by Reep »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 10:21:43 PM »
Well I also know and have dealt with Francesco over at Marra Forni also  !  :D these too are great people.
what are the  specs measurements of the Coriglio  he offers? They do seem quite nice ovens .
I also really like the 1350 Lateral its pretty bi at 37" X53" floor space so you can alsoo do a fire on each side and cook like 4-6 neapolitan in the middle or use one side fire and trhe afar side for calzones or whatever ? I do love the brick look that would be a must. As far as heat escaping? this aint alcatraz ! The dome is heated by the flames rolling over it the lower dome keep more of the flames licking the dome at all times Once  the oven /mass is up to temp I do not think that would be an issue. Scott please chime in. I did not notice any escapies when I cooked in the 950  ;) and the lower dome hieght did not bother me either I would like the 12 " dome with the  Mugniani ? not mentioned
you have a tough descicion but at least you have some help! None of these kind people when I built the earthstone  :'(keep hunting
John
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 11:07:35 PM »
Well I also know and have dealt with Francesco over at Marra Forni also  !  :D these too are great people.
what are the  specs measurements of the Coriglio  he offers? They do seem quite nice ovens .
I also really like the 1350 Lateral its pretty bi at 37" X53" floor space so you can alsoo do a fire on each side and cook like 4-6 neapolitan in the middle or use one side fire and trhe afar side for calzones or whatever ?

The Marra Forni (made by CF) is 42" floor with 16" to the dome.  The 1350 lateral is actually about 33"x53".  They count the opening in the measurement, which isn't really the depth of the floor.  it is made from two 700s with a spacer in the middle.  Either one would be great, but they are so different. 

Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2012, 12:51:34 PM »
Thank you for all the kind comments, I really appreciate it.
To bring a few more information to the table on the different ovens here are my comments.
- The 1350 sides are made of 2 back pieces from the 800 oven, 32"1/2 diameter, with 2 unique central pieces that ties the oven together. Also correct the depth of the 1350 of the cooking floor per say is 32"1/2, but 37" to the landing brick tiles.
- The 1500 sides are made of 2 back pieces from the 950 oven, 37"1/2 diameter, with 2 unique central pieces that ties the oven together.

As far as oven weight, it is important to not confuse the shipping weight and the oven weight. Oven weight is, or should be from my point of view, the refractory material that are going to create the thermal mass.
For example the 950 oven weight, no doors, no flue connector, no insulation, ... is at 960 lb. When it ships with the doors, flue connector and insulation, it brings the oven to 1400 lb.
Many manufacturer are deceiving and put the shipping weight but it is not the true oven weight as some of the weight they account for includes insulation, or grog for example ( over 350 lb ), and even the crate it is packaged in.

Antoine
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2012, 03:37:54 PM »
Update: down to 2.

Due to some adjustments to the construction site, the 1350 is out of the running as I cannot easily accommodate the width.  And I really want a brick dome (personal preference).  So it is down to these two:

FGM 950B: 9.5" dome 37.5" (published) cooking diameter, $ good value, more fuel efficient, slightly limiting on uses outside of pizza.

Marra Forni Capri 110: 16" dome, 42" cooking diameter, $$$ but fully assembled (I have very little time)

I can swing the money for the MF, but the FGM is clearly a better value.  I do believe that for pizza making and parties, the FGM would be plenty big.  My biggest concern is down the road if I want the versatility to cook bigger items (birds primarily) then I will be a bit limited by the FGM.  Also, I think the extra space in the Marra would be more forgiving to a newbie and increase the margin for error (although using more fuel).  I don't really care for the raised FGM because of the tall, narrow door and the extra seem from the 3" lift kit.  Really torn between these two beautiful ovens and the great support from both sales groups.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 09:09:47 PM »
IMHO the great part of a wood fired oven is the abundance of heat.  You can make a claim that the all around radiant heat and sealed cooking chamber make retained heat cooking special, and they do, but at the end of the day these beasts really shine with flame, fire and high heat.

I mention this because you mention cooking birds as a concern with the FGM oven.  I've roasted birds in my oven and they are good, certainly better and moister then a most out of a home oven, but it's still a roast bird.  If you want something special cook some pizza, then let the life flame die.  Spread the red hot coals out across the entire cooking floor.  Split a bird down the back and put it into a cast iron pan.  Put that pan right on top of the coals, and in no time you will have something that will blow your mind.  We do chicken like this a lot after pizza.  20 minutes and a whole chicken is done and incredible, dripping with moisture with a very browned and crispy skin.  Like nothing you've ever had, and odds are you will never care about roasting again.
-Jeff

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 09:18:24 PM »
Like nothing you've ever had, and odds are you will never care about roasting again.

Sounds awesome! Skin up or down?

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 09:34:49 PM »
Agreed Jeep, I still have big plans 7 years Later to do roasting in My oven that I bought because I wanted to make great  pizza ! I have made bread like 2 times and do  ribs, roasts, pork butt often next day. I think either oven can do that. I don't want to influence  your choice just offering my experience. I am friendly with Both Francesco @ Marra Forni and Antione over at Breadstone. As mentioned most people don't have the unlimited budget  which makes the FGM a clear winner in my eye. As mentioned I have cooked in the 950B standard and its great ! I am sure the Marra ovens are very good as well!  Tony G uses this oven in SF and he can probably  use whatever he wants too ? But thats a professional setting. You are building a home oven mostly  for Pizza right ? But you have limited experience and want a touch bigger  How about the FGM 1030 (40+") or the  1200 ? thats a round  47 " inside  and a beautiful oven as well. And - you can then do those 150 people parties right ?? BTW Ricks Party I did was well over 75 people  I did about 75 pies in the 950B in 2 hrs. You also mention this door height thing and heat escaping. This is just my thought ,The lower dome allows the flames to roll more consistently across the dome keeping it hot and reducing fuel (wood) consumption. When I cooked in Rick's Oven the flames went across, not out the front, and he has the standard version. You also can go raised and get the smaller door you know.  Lastly for a small fee they can factory assemble the FGM for you plop it in or on stand and start cooking !!
Good luck with your decision go with your gut I cant wait to see the build whatever you choose Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 09:37:39 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2012, 12:10:57 AM »
 How about the FGM 1030 (40+") or the  1200 ? thats a round  47 " inside  and a beautiful oven as well. And - you can then do those 150 people parties right ??
Good luck with your decision go with your gut I cant wait to see the build whatever you choose Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John

Yeah, I looked at the Ferraro. Like a restaurant without prices on the menu. I like the 1200, but even I admit 47" is way too big.  I'm considering the 1500B short (38x45) and still the 950B and CF?  I think the 1500 tall and CF would actually be similar in many ways. Just that the 1500 has a lot more joints in the dome and saves about $4k over the CF.

I like the bird idea. A big turkey is the biggest thing I would put in it. Split in half would work easy, but I'd have to take it on faith. Pizza is the main priority with bread coming in a distant second.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2012, 04:51:55 AM »
Reep, what's the price on the CF?

Also, what's the door height?


 

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