Author Topic: Earthstone 110 or FGM?  (Read 12692 times)

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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 09:09:47 PM »
IMHO the great part of a wood fired oven is the abundance of heat.  You can make a claim that the all around radiant heat and sealed cooking chamber make retained heat cooking special, and they do, but at the end of the day these beasts really shine with flame, fire and high heat.

I mention this because you mention cooking birds as a concern with the FGM oven.  I've roasted birds in my oven and they are good, certainly better and moister then a most out of a home oven, but it's still a roast bird.  If you want something special cook some pizza, then let the life flame die.  Spread the red hot coals out across the entire cooking floor.  Split a bird down the back and put it into a cast iron pan.  Put that pan right on top of the coals, and in no time you will have something that will blow your mind.  We do chicken like this a lot after pizza.  20 minutes and a whole chicken is done and incredible, dripping with moisture with a very browned and crispy skin.  Like nothing you've ever had, and odds are you will never care about roasting again.
-Jeff


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 09:18:24 PM »
Like nothing you've ever had, and odds are you will never care about roasting again.

Sounds awesome! Skin up or down?

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 09:34:49 PM »
Agreed Jeep, I still have big plans 7 years Later to do roasting in My oven that I bought because I wanted to make great  pizza ! I have made bread like 2 times and do  ribs, roasts, pork butt often next day. I think either oven can do that. I don't want to influence  your choice just offering my experience. I am friendly with Both Francesco @ Marra Forni and Antione over at Breadstone. As mentioned most people don't have the unlimited budget  which makes the FGM a clear winner in my eye. As mentioned I have cooked in the 950B standard and its great ! I am sure the Marra ovens are very good as well!  Tony G uses this oven in SF and he can probably  use whatever he wants too ? But thats a professional setting. You are building a home oven mostly  for Pizza right ? But you have limited experience and want a touch bigger  How about the FGM 1030 (40+") or the  1200 ? thats a round  47 " inside  and a beautiful oven as well. And - you can then do those 150 people parties right ?? BTW Ricks Party I did was well over 75 people  I did about 75 pies in the 950B in 2 hrs. You also mention this door height thing and heat escaping. This is just my thought ,The lower dome allows the flames to roll more consistently across the dome keeping it hot and reducing fuel (wood) consumption. When I cooked in Rick's Oven the flames went across, not out the front, and he has the standard version. You also can go raised and get the smaller door you know.  Lastly for a small fee they can factory assemble the FGM for you plop it in or on stand and start cooking !!
Good luck with your decision go with your gut I cant wait to see the build whatever you choose Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 09:37:39 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2012, 12:10:57 AM »
 How about the FGM 1030 (40+") or the  1200 ? thats a round  47 " inside  and a beautiful oven as well. And - you can then do those 150 people parties right ??
Good luck with your decision go with your gut I cant wait to see the build whatever you choose Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John

Yeah, I looked at the Ferraro. Like a restaurant without prices on the menu. I like the 1200, but even I admit 47" is way too big.  I'm considering the 1500B short (38x45) and still the 950B and CF?  I think the 1500 tall and CF would actually be similar in many ways. Just that the 1500 has a lot more joints in the dome and saves about $4k over the CF.

I like the bird idea. A big turkey is the biggest thing I would put in it. Split in half would work easy, but I'd have to take it on faith. Pizza is the main priority with bread coming in a distant second.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2012, 04:51:55 AM »
Reep, what's the price on the CF?

Also, what's the door height?

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2012, 08:34:26 AM »
Scott I know the door on the FGM is 8.5" and the Dome is 9.8" so that 63% ration does not work out right? You can go raised +3" and use same door. But I did cook in it as listed and did not  notice any effect of heat loss with the low dome  just some really nice top heat! What ya thinking
John
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2012, 11:10:12 AM »
Reep, what's the price on the CF?

Also, what's the door height?

$11.5k or so delivered. Door height of about 10".  FGM 1500 tall is about $7.5k delivered, and I could have a 12.5" dome with 8.5" or 11.5" door.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2012, 06:39:52 PM »
John, I'm still not in love with the door height on the 950.  From a door perspective, the CF is a hands down winner, imo.  But I'm also not entirely sold on the CF either.  Something feels off.  I'm a bit concerned about the entryway.  If it's uninsulated stainless, that's going to be a major problem. Even if it's insulated stainless, I'm still concerned.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this and the front of the oven has some thermal mass, but, if it doesn't, that's going to make for much more uneven bakes. You can probably compensate with a few extra turns, but, imo, the front of the oven should have at least thermal mass and preferably insulation as well. The door can be uninsulated, but only if it's a small door (like the Ferrara).

It's hard to tell, but the shape of the ceiling on the CF might be a bit wacky as well.

Don't get me wrong, the MFC 110 is a superior oven to the 950, but... before I'd ever spend 11.5K, I would definitely like to see what the front of the oven is made out of.

Reep, in theory, an oblong oven should perform beautifully, but there are no members on this forum that use oblong ovens, nor are there homeowners outside of this forum using them. At least, none that I'm aware of.  If it were me, I don't think I'd want to be the first. I know that a lot of members complain about not buying a large enough oven, but I highly doubt you'll need anything larger than the 40" 1030C.

Now, the 1030C is low mass/quick pre-heat, which might end up working great for family night pizza, but not so great for residual heat baking, but you're not going to get every feature you're looking for in a single oven.

It seems like you have the money and the space.  Have you considered two ovens? One small-ish for quick pre-heats and another larger for bigger events and/or a greater variety of foods?

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2012, 06:52:37 PM »
Scott I know the door on the FGM is 8.5" and the Dome is 9.8" so that 63% ration does not work out right? You can go raised +3" and use same door.

An 8.5" door with a 12.8" ceiling wouldn't be bad, but the 63% rule relates to the inner door as well- the pre-chimney opening.  It's the inner door that's critical to keeping the superheated gases in the oven as long as possible and the small outer, post chimney door doesn't affect that. Once you go past the chimney, door size gets a lot less important.

This is why I've been asking Antoine for a cast iron insert for the inside opening- something that will bring it down a few more inches- without making it much narrower so you can still comfortably launch large pizzas.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 07:06:56 PM by scott123 »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 08:24:54 PM »
Interesting thought. I could do a FGM 950 low and Earthstone 110 for less than the MC.  If nothing else it would be fun to experiment.

It would be nice to have one for family meals and then one for bigger events/projects.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 08:28:23 PM by Reep »


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 08:38:22 PM »
Reep,

Where are you located?  Generally I wouldn't mention it due to cost, but considering what you are looking at I think the option of having a custom oven built by stovemasters would be within reason.

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html

Being custom they could build exactly what you want, and the quality of masonry work on their oven is second to none, FAR above anything I've seen built in Italy.  Their standard commercial design scaled down to 42" with a smaller door and less massive vent would probably be perfect for you.
-Jeff

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 09:21:14 PM »
Jeff, what's the average dome height on the Stovemasters?

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 09:54:55 PM »
Here's a 48" with a 17" dome:
http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/articles_9.html

They also show a 60" with a 18" dome.

Both are a bit higher then I like, but for their sizes they aren't too bad.  Again, considering they are custom built I'm sure a lower dome could be done if the person buying the oven requested.  A custom oven built to this caliber is really gonna be the Cadillac option for a home builder who can afford it.  Commercial ovens may seem great, but most seem to lack thermal efficiency in one place or another.  For a commercial oven that is always hot that is ok, but for a home oven fired from cold it can really be an issue.
-Jeff

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2012, 10:27:10 PM »
door looks big!
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2012, 01:00:11 AM »
Reep,

Where are you located?  Generally I wouldn't mention it due to cost, but considering what you are looking at I think the option of having a custom oven built by stovemasters would be within reason.

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html

I'm in SoCal.  Looks like they are East coast or Washington. 

I'm not sure I could really appreciate a great oven like that.  I just want something versatile and user friendly.

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2012, 12:37:51 PM »
But I'm also not entirely sold on the CF either.  Something feels off.  I'm a bit concerned about the entryway.  If it's uninsulated stainless, that's going to be a major problem. Even if it's insulated stainless, I'm still concerned.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this and the front of the oven has some thermal mass, but, if it doesn't, that's going to make for much more uneven bakes.

Here is an updated schematic of the CF.  Looks like solid mass all the way up around the door opening:
http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg
Although, these might not be super accurate as they state that the dome is 4" thick, but show the outside diameter at 49.5" and the interior as 44" [(49.5-44)/2=2.75" not 4", but the top of the dome appears to be thicker than the sides.

Now, the 1030C is low mass/quick pre-heat, which might end up working great for family night pizza, but not so great for residual heat baking, but you're not going to get every feature you're looking for in a single oven.

I do like the size of this oven, but really want to do some backing that would require more thermal mass.  Funny that almost nobody makes a 40" mass oven.  They all seem to jump from 35/37" up to 43".

It seems like you have the money and the space.  Have you considered two ovens? One small-ish for quick pre-heats and another larger for bigger events and/or a greater variety of foods?

The biggest problem I would have is that I would have to redesign on the fly to create another deep footer and depth space for the additional oven.  Right now I only have one space set up to hold that much weight and accommodate the depth.  I could go over/under, but that may cause loading issues as neither would be optimal height.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 01:16:54 PM by Reep »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2012, 01:34:52 PM »
Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John

John, I mistakenly had the wrong pricing for the Stefano Ferraro.  It actually appears to be very close to the Marra Forni.  Certainly a bigger oven than I need, but one I should check into.

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2012, 07:46:41 PM »
If one were to purchase an FGM "high" with the 12.8" dome and 11.5" door, would it be all that hard to build your own insert to lower the inner door height to 8.5"?  If you had such an insert, then you could have the best of both worlds.  11.5" door for the turkey, and use the insert when you want to cook neo pizza?  It's main goal would be to prevent the hotter higher air from escaping as easily, so it would only have to handle the heat.  Maybe make a metal band in the shape of the new inner door and top it with fire brick to the shape of the old inner door.  It would not have to be a perfect fit, just enough to block most air flow.

For those of you who are builders, could you not just mortar in an inner door solution as well?  Maybe support it with some thin pieces on the sides of the door to keep it in place and not lose too much width?

I'm still not sure that the 11.5" door is really a problem as the convection within the oven is likely circulating the air quite a bit as it is.  If the air temp differential is great, then you are not getting much convection.  If one assumes that all the air (top to bottom) in the oven is of a similar temperature then the difference between the 11.5" door and the 10" door on most similar ovens isn't as significant as the open area represented by the whole door.  I know the 0.63 door ratio is the standard throughout time, but that doesn't really mean there is any scientific basis for it, or that it is any more important than an arched or square door shape.

But, it might be and I'm not sure I want to spend $$$ to find out.   :-\

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2012, 10:42:25 PM »
Option 8 get a small portable oven like a  primavera 60 put on wheels maybe? and you can allways sell this later, most here would be happy  to have any WFO . Then learn how to make pizza decide if you even like the work involved   and keep doing research for a few months.? And Keep Scott123 in the WFO loop  ;)  there are other forums as well that may be helpful in your quest for the perfect oven. Not sure we can do more ?
I am stickin with the solid reasonable choice here for a home oven the FGM 950 B (raised it you want ) Done  :pizza:
Have you decided what tools you will be using ? I can help with that for sure much easier question for me, and  Ihope you  remember me when the time comes  Thanks Reep!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:44:45 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2012, 12:38:45 AM »
Option 8 get a small portable oven like a  primavera 60 put on wheels maybe? and you can allways sell this later, most here would be happy  to have any WFO . Then learn how to make pizza decide if you even like the work involved   and keep doing research for a few months.? And Keep Scott123 in the WFO loop  ;)  there are other forums as well that may be helpful in your quest for the perfect oven. Not sure we can do more ?
I am stickin with the solid reasonable choice here for a home oven the FGM 950 B (raised it you want ) Done  :pizza:
Have you decided what tools you will be using ? I can help with that for sure much easier question for me, and  Ihope you  remember me when the time comes  Thanks Reep!


I'm a self-confessed compulsive overanalyzer.  This is what I do. 

Yeah, I have the information I need and just need to make the choice.  I'm pretty close, but will be going over to a friends for pizza in his wood oven (Fogazzo), so maybe I will get some more insights before I decide.


 

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