Author Topic: Earthstone 110 or FGM?  (Read 15188 times)

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Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2012, 08:34:26 AM »
Scott I know the door on the FGM is 8.5" and the Dome is 9.8" so that 63% ration does not work out right? You can go raised +3" and use same door. But I did cook in it as listed and did not  notice any effect of heat loss with the low dome  just some really nice top heat! What ya thinking
John
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2012, 11:10:12 AM »
Reep, what's the price on the CF?

Also, what's the door height?

$11.5k or so delivered. Door height of about 10".  FGM 1500 tall is about $7.5k delivered, and I could have a 12.5" dome with 8.5" or 11.5" door.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2012, 06:39:52 PM »
John, I'm still not in love with the door height on the 950.  From a door perspective, the CF is a hands down winner, imo.  But I'm also not entirely sold on the CF either.  Something feels off.  I'm a bit concerned about the entryway.  If it's uninsulated stainless, that's going to be a major problem. Even if it's insulated stainless, I'm still concerned.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this and the front of the oven has some thermal mass, but, if it doesn't, that's going to make for much more uneven bakes. You can probably compensate with a few extra turns, but, imo, the front of the oven should have at least thermal mass and preferably insulation as well. The door can be uninsulated, but only if it's a small door (like the Ferrara).

It's hard to tell, but the shape of the ceiling on the CF might be a bit wacky as well.

Don't get me wrong, the MFC 110 is a superior oven to the 950, but... before I'd ever spend 11.5K, I would definitely like to see what the front of the oven is made out of.

Reep, in theory, an oblong oven should perform beautifully, but there are no members on this forum that use oblong ovens, nor are there homeowners outside of this forum using them. At least, none that I'm aware of.  If it were me, I don't think I'd want to be the first. I know that a lot of members complain about not buying a large enough oven, but I highly doubt you'll need anything larger than the 40" 1030C.

Now, the 1030C is low mass/quick pre-heat, which might end up working great for family night pizza, but not so great for residual heat baking, but you're not going to get every feature you're looking for in a single oven.

It seems like you have the money and the space.  Have you considered two ovens? One small-ish for quick pre-heats and another larger for bigger events and/or a greater variety of foods?

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2012, 06:52:37 PM »
Scott I know the door on the FGM is 8.5" and the Dome is 9.8" so that 63% ration does not work out right? You can go raised +3" and use same door.

An 8.5" door with a 12.8" ceiling wouldn't be bad, but the 63% rule relates to the inner door as well- the pre-chimney opening.  It's the inner door that's critical to keeping the superheated gases in the oven as long as possible and the small outer, post chimney door doesn't affect that. Once you go past the chimney, door size gets a lot less important.

This is why I've been asking Antoine for a cast iron insert for the inside opening- something that will bring it down a few more inches- without making it much narrower so you can still comfortably launch large pizzas.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 07:06:56 PM by scott123 »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 08:24:54 PM »
Interesting thought. I could do a FGM 950 low and Earthstone 110 for less than the MC.  If nothing else it would be fun to experiment.

It would be nice to have one for family meals and then one for bigger events/projects.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 08:28:23 PM by Reep »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 08:38:22 PM »
Reep,

Where are you located?  Generally I wouldn't mention it due to cost, but considering what you are looking at I think the option of having a custom oven built by stovemasters would be within reason.

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html

Being custom they could build exactly what you want, and the quality of masonry work on their oven is second to none, FAR above anything I've seen built in Italy.  Their standard commercial design scaled down to 42" with a smaller door and less massive vent would probably be perfect for you.
-Jeff

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 09:21:14 PM »
Jeff, what's the average dome height on the Stovemasters?

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 09:54:55 PM »
Here's a 48" with a 17" dome:
http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/articles_9.html

They also show a 60" with a 18" dome.

Both are a bit higher then I like, but for their sizes they aren't too bad.  Again, considering they are custom built I'm sure a lower dome could be done if the person buying the oven requested.  A custom oven built to this caliber is really gonna be the Cadillac option for a home builder who can afford it.  Commercial ovens may seem great, but most seem to lack thermal efficiency in one place or another.  For a commercial oven that is always hot that is ok, but for a home oven fired from cold it can really be an issue.
-Jeff

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2012, 10:27:10 PM »
door looks big!
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com


Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2012, 01:00:11 AM »
Reep,

Where are you located?  Generally I wouldn't mention it due to cost, but considering what you are looking at I think the option of having a custom oven built by stovemasters would be within reason.

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html

I'm in SoCal.  Looks like they are East coast or Washington. 

I'm not sure I could really appreciate a great oven like that.  I just want something versatile and user friendly.

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2012, 12:37:51 PM »
But I'm also not entirely sold on the CF either.  Something feels off.  I'm a bit concerned about the entryway.  If it's uninsulated stainless, that's going to be a major problem. Even if it's insulated stainless, I'm still concerned.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this and the front of the oven has some thermal mass, but, if it doesn't, that's going to make for much more uneven bakes.

Here is an updated schematic of the CF.  Looks like solid mass all the way up around the door opening:
http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg
Although, these might not be super accurate as they state that the dome is 4" thick, but show the outside diameter at 49.5" and the interior as 44" [(49.5-44)/2=2.75" not 4", but the top of the dome appears to be thicker than the sides.

Now, the 1030C is low mass/quick pre-heat, which might end up working great for family night pizza, but not so great for residual heat baking, but you're not going to get every feature you're looking for in a single oven.

I do like the size of this oven, but really want to do some backing that would require more thermal mass.  Funny that almost nobody makes a 40" mass oven.  They all seem to jump from 35/37" up to 43".

It seems like you have the money and the space.  Have you considered two ovens? One small-ish for quick pre-heats and another larger for bigger events and/or a greater variety of foods?

The biggest problem I would have is that I would have to redesign on the fly to create another deep footer and depth space for the additional oven.  Right now I only have one space set up to hold that much weight and accommodate the depth.  I could go over/under, but that may cause loading issues as neither would be optimal height.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 01:16:54 PM by Reep »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2012, 01:34:52 PM »
Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John

John, I mistakenly had the wrong pricing for the Stefano Ferraro.  It actually appears to be very close to the Marra Forni.  Certainly a bigger oven than I need, but one I should check into.

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2012, 07:46:41 PM »
If one were to purchase an FGM "high" with the 12.8" dome and 11.5" door, would it be all that hard to build your own insert to lower the inner door height to 8.5"?  If you had such an insert, then you could have the best of both worlds.  11.5" door for the turkey, and use the insert when you want to cook neo pizza?  It's main goal would be to prevent the hotter higher air from escaping as easily, so it would only have to handle the heat.  Maybe make a metal band in the shape of the new inner door and top it with fire brick to the shape of the old inner door.  It would not have to be a perfect fit, just enough to block most air flow.

For those of you who are builders, could you not just mortar in an inner door solution as well?  Maybe support it with some thin pieces on the sides of the door to keep it in place and not lose too much width?

I'm still not sure that the 11.5" door is really a problem as the convection within the oven is likely circulating the air quite a bit as it is.  If the air temp differential is great, then you are not getting much convection.  If one assumes that all the air (top to bottom) in the oven is of a similar temperature then the difference between the 11.5" door and the 10" door on most similar ovens isn't as significant as the open area represented by the whole door.  I know the 0.63 door ratio is the standard throughout time, but that doesn't really mean there is any scientific basis for it, or that it is any more important than an arched or square door shape.

But, it might be and I'm not sure I want to spend $$$ to find out.   :-\

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2012, 10:42:25 PM »
Option 8 get a small portable oven like a  primavera 60 put on wheels maybe? and you can allways sell this later, most here would be happy  to have any WFO . Then learn how to make pizza decide if you even like the work involved   and keep doing research for a few months.? And Keep Scott123 in the WFO loop  ;)  there are other forums as well that may be helpful in your quest for the perfect oven. Not sure we can do more ?
I am stickin with the solid reasonable choice here for a home oven the FGM 950 B (raised it you want ) Done  :pizza:
Have you decided what tools you will be using ? I can help with that for sure much easier question for me, and  Ihope you  remember me when the time comes  Thanks Reep!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:44:45 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2012, 12:38:45 AM »
Option 8 get a small portable oven like a  primavera 60 put on wheels maybe? and you can allways sell this later, most here would be happy  to have any WFO . Then learn how to make pizza decide if you even like the work involved   and keep doing research for a few months.? And Keep Scott123 in the WFO loop  ;)  there are other forums as well that may be helpful in your quest for the perfect oven. Not sure we can do more ?
I am stickin with the solid reasonable choice here for a home oven the FGM 950 B (raised it you want ) Done  :pizza:
Have you decided what tools you will be using ? I can help with that for sure much easier question for me, and  Ihope you  remember me when the time comes  Thanks Reep!


I'm a self-confessed compulsive overanalyzer.  This is what I do. 

Yeah, I have the information I need and just need to make the choice.  I'm pretty close, but will be going over to a friends for pizza in his wood oven (Fogazzo), so maybe I will get some more insights before I decide.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2012, 02:55:58 AM »
Here is an updated schematic of the CF.  Looks like solid mass all the way up around the door opening:
http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg
Although, these might not be super accurate as they state that the dome is 4" thick, but show the outside diameter at 49.5" and the interior as 44" [(49.5-44)/2=2.75" not 4", but the top of the dome appears to be thicker than the sides.

Actually, I was looking at the Neapolitan model and not the Traditional.

If you can afford a Ferrara and don't mind a long  pre-heat (most like a minimum of 8 hours for pizza), then I'd go with the Ferrara over the CF. Completely different league.

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2012, 03:10:37 AM »
If one were to purchase an FGM "high" with the 12.8" dome and 11.5" door, would it be all that hard to build your own insert to lower the inner door height to 8.5"?  If you had such an insert, then you could have the best of both worlds.  11.5" door for the turkey, and use the insert when you want to cook neo pizza?  It's main goal would be to prevent the hotter higher air from escaping as easily, so it would only have to handle the heat.  Maybe make a metal band in the shape of the new inner door and top it with fire brick to the shape of the old inner door.  It would not have to be a perfect fit, just enough to block most air flow.

For those of you who are builders, could you not just mortar in an inner door solution as well?  Maybe support it with some thin pieces on the sides of the door to keep it in place and not lose too much width?

Yes, until Antoine comes up with a cast iron insert, I think a homegrown approach is an excellent idea.

I was thinking about this yesterday.  While it would be nice if the insert could be insulated and/or have some mass, neither are critical.  The main purpose is trapping hot air so that it contacts the dome longer before flowing under the inner door and up the chimney.  The lower the inner door, to a point, the more heat you're capturing in the dome. The higher the inner door, the more heat is lost up the chimney.

You might even be able to get away with something like copper flashing. You will want it to be fairly snug, though, so the gases are forced underneath it.


Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2012, 09:42:13 AM »
Actually, I was looking at the Neapolitan model and not the Traditional.

It doesn't appear that the Neapolitan model is made by CF.  I'm checking this to see who makes them.  FWIW, I saw in a video that Tony G's oven is the Traditional.

I'm still getting prices on a couple of fully completed ovens to see if I can get one close, but I think I could set up a FGM tall and find a way to get the internal door lowered.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2012, 10:19:51 AM »
Yes, until Antoine comes up with a cast iron insert, I think a homegrown approach is an excellent idea.

I was thinking about this yesterday.  While it would be nice if the insert could be insulated and/or have some mass, neither are critical.  The main purpose is trapping hot air so that it contacts the dome longer before flowing under the inner door and up the chimney.  The lower the inner door, to a point, the more heat you're capturing in the dome. The higher the inner door, the more heat is lost up the chimney.

You might even be able to get away with something like copper flashing. You will want it to be fairly snug, though, so the gases are forced underneath it.

Scott, just thinking out loud here; how much difference could a couple inches of hot air make? Air doesn’t hold much heat. If you reduce the size of the door opening, you are also going to restrict the oxygen flow, right? I’d be more worried about the effect this had on the ability of the fire to convert fuel to heat. I would think a couple inches of hot air is a poor tradeoff for a cooler fire.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2012, 02:11:13 PM »
Scott, just thinking out loud here; how much difference could a couple inches of hot air make? Air doesn’t hold much heat. If you reduce the size of the door opening, you are also going to restrict the oxygen flow, right? I’d be more worried about the effect this had on the ability of the fire to convert fuel to heat. I would think a couple inches of hot air is a poor tradeoff for a cooler fire.

I think I may have a solution figure out.  I am going to talk to Antione about including an extra "insulated door" if I go with FGM.  The FGM insulated door fits inside the flush with the oven opening.  If I had an extra one of these I could cut an opening in it to 63% of the dome height and leave an inch or so of support on each side that would still allow pizzas up to 16" inches to pass through.  The insulated door is made to fit so this should be easy.  This way I could experiment with both openings.  If the restricted opening works, I can use it when cooking pizza and then remove it when i want to have a larger opening.  Best of both worlds.  Maybe FGM will manufacture it and call it a Reep Restrictor, or preferably something in French that sounds better.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2012, 03:15:31 PM »
Sounds like a great solution. 
-Jeff

Offline JConk007

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2012, 09:58:41 PM »
Kinda gotta go with Craig here. Scott I admire your research and number crunching but have you cooked in the FGM ? or the CF ?  Is there goto oven formula, ratio recipe you are striving for, and why again?  Homeowner specific.
I mentioned I have and did cook in the 950 and did not notice a loss in heat out the chimney? they have been making them this way for years and a lot of them ! aint broke dont fix it ! or rig it ! I am telling you in my rookie opinion these ovens Make a good neapolitan style  pizza ! Not a Stefano, but close to 1/2 the price all in right?
Thanks
John
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scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2012, 06:42:37 AM »
John, I don't have to use an FGM or a CF to be able to understand the thermodynamics involved.  I've taken one of Jeff's diagrams and modified it to show what happens when the door is too high.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 07:20:58 AM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2012, 07:06:44 AM »
As you can see, when the door is too high, less of the superheated air is trapped in the dome. With less trapped superheated air, you get less heat transfer to the dome.  The lower the door, the longer you can keep the heat in the oven, the hotter the dome gets. We're not talking about a huge amount of time- the hot air might stay in the oven just a fraction of a second longer, but it's enough time for the exhaust gases on oven #1 (higher door) to be hotter than the the exhaust gases on oven #2.  Hotter exhaust gases translates into more heat loss on the high door. For the properly sized door you're talking about a faster pre-heat and a hotter dome overall.

Craig, since the door serves both the duties of exhaust and fresh air intake, you do have to be careful about how small you make the opening, but that's where the 63% ratio comes into play.  The Italians have been testing this for centuries and that's what they arrived at.  Like Jeff, I'm not in love with that exact figure, but I am head over heels for that realm- maybe 55%-70%, depending on the size of the oven, shape of the door and other factors.  Above 70%, though, and you're flushing wood down the drain.

Now, a high door, like a high ceiling, can definitely be worked around.  If you throw enough wood at it, it will get plenty hot.  But if a simple insert can make this oven more efficient (and I'll bet any amount of money it will), then I strongly feel that it's worth adding.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 07:26:09 AM by scott123 »

Offline Reep

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Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2012, 09:46:46 AM »
The challenge with using those diagrams is that they don't really accurately reflect the thermodynamics.  The air is obviously a continuum of temperatures, not quantum levels, and also the oven should be full of convection currents stirring the air, not to mention what happens when you move wood around or put a pizza in and out.

I don't disagree that a lower door might be important, but you would have to look at a lot more variables to scientifically come to that conclusion.  Maybe I will publish a paper in Pizza Science Magazine if I can get the Reep door to work.