America's Test Kitchen Deep Dish Pizza recipe Vs Gregg's

[petef]

Everyone, this thread is about my attempts to make Chicago Deep Dish Pizza using recipes by forum member "Gregg", and America's Test Kitchen (ATK).

To best understand the two recipes, view the 2 links below..

1.) Here's some pics of Gregg's pizza and his Deep Dish Pizza recipe...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20882.msg211352.html#msg211352

2.) Here's a video of America's Test Kitchen's Deep Dish Pizza recipe...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;feature=endscreen&amp;v=B2uGmk0kYC4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;feature=endscreen&amp;v=B2uGmk0kYC4</a>

The main differences between these two recipes is in the
dough ingredients and dough preparation technique.

Gregg's recipe is relatively simple, he uses a single rise at room temp and then forms the pizza in the pan...

flour 100%
water 49%
yeast 2%
salt 2%
sugar 3.4%
milk 24%


ATK's recipe uses the same basic ingredients in different proportions, plus they use melted butter and cornmeal in the dough formulation.

ATK's recipe adds even more butter to the rolled out rectangular shaped dough. Then they roll it up and fold it over to create a multi-butter-layered dough ball followed by a second rise in the refrigerator.

I followed both recipes closely, except that I used the same baking technique for both as suggested by Gregg where the dough only is par-baked 5 minutes at 450 Deg F. After par-baking I brushed the rims with an emulsion of olive oil, butter and fresh garlic (my own twist on the recipes). Then I added all the toppings and baked them about 25 minutes at 450 deg F on the bottom oven rack.

For my two attempts, see pics below.
The pic filenames w/Pizza1=Gregg's
The pic filenames w/Pizza2=ATK's

My personal preference was Gregg's for the dough texture and taste. ATK's dough was more dense, tender, and buttery in flavor, but I actually preferred the texture and flavor of Gregg's. Gregg's browned much better too. The differences in taste are not that dramatic because the sauce & cheese kind of overwhelms the dough. Both were very good.

A special thanks to our new forum member Gregg and America's Test Kitchen for sharing their Chicago Deep Dish Pizza recipes.

---pete---

[Garvey]

That is a *really* thick crust!  About 2x-3x as thick as I'd consider a Chicago DD, for my own liking.  Looks really tasty, though!

That being said, what was working with a dough at 73% hydration?  My pies--Chicago thin or DD--run generally between 45-55%, and I've never had good luck with 67% or higher without using a TON of bench flour, etc.  I realize that NY and other styles run at 67% or greater, so it's no surprise that people make doughs like this: I have just never really done it much.  Are there other tips or tricks in using such wet dough (e.g., knead longer)?

Cheers,
Garvey

[jeffereynelson]

  Are there other tips or tricks in using such wet dough (e.g., knead longer)?

You are correct, that is exactly the trick.

[Chicago Bob]

Does Gregg give a TF or final dough weight for this particular recipe?
What size pan did you use/ Gregg uses?

[petef]

That is a *really* thick crust!  About 2x-3x as thick as I'd consider a Chicago DD, for my own liking.  Looks really tasty, though!

That being said, what was working with a dough at 73% hydration?  My pies--Chicago thin or DD--run generally between 45-55%, and I've never had good luck with 67% or higher without using a TON of bench flour, etc.  

Guys,
This was my first time making or even eating Chicago Deep Dish style pizza, so I have nothing to compare it to. I initially thought was the crust was very thick, so next time I may try using less dough. To answer Bob's question, I only had percentages to work Gregg's recipe so I used the same amount of flour as the ATK recipe called out for which was actually for 2 pies. See below...

Gregg's Chicago Deep Dish Pizza dough
(yield for 2 pies in 9" diameter 1.5" tall black cake pans)

           Target %..   Weight(Oz)....      Volume
Flour...   100.0%...   16.25   ............    3-1/4 cups
Water...   49.0%.....   7.96..............         1 cup
Yeast...   2.0%.......   0.33..............   2-3/4 ts
Salt.....   2.0%.......   0.33..............   1-5/8 ts
Sugar...   3.4%.......   0.55..............   3-1/2 ts
Milk...   24.0%.....   3.90..............      1/2 cup

Adding Milk & Water = 73% Hydration, but I'm not sure if that's an accurate measure of hydration because I found the dough not to be wet at all. In fact, I initially left out 1/4 cup of flour while hand mixing because the dough came together well enough in the bowl to begin kneading. Then I used that 1/4 cup flour to dust the surface while kneading and I didn't even use it all because I felt the dough would become too dry.

This is also my first time using baker's percentages so hopefully I calculated the "weights" correctly. After I carefully weighed each ingredient, I determined each "volume" by using a cup measure and teaspoon measure to determine how much it was. So the volumes are less precise and a bit estimated to the nearest fraction.

---pete---

[petef]

People from Chicago,
Even though I've never actually eaten any Deep Dish Pizza before this and I preferred Gregg's dough recipe, which contained no butter, I'm left wondering what the folks at ATK had tasted when they went to Chicago (Lou Malnatis) to sample authentic Chicago Deep Dish Pizza. ATK's recipe was definitely targeting a buttery flavor and their dough was more dense than Greggs. You should be able to see that difference in density in the pics I posted above.

So what are the flavor, texture, and thickness characteristics of authentic Chicago Deep Dish Pizza?

---pete---

[Garvey]

That recipe would yield two 415g dough balls, each for a 9" pie.  TF would be about .16, assuming it goes 1.25" up the sides of the 9" pan.  That is quite a bit heavier than what I personally use for a 12" pie (i.e., to compare to a 12" pie with that TF, you'd be talking about a 685g dough ball, which is 71% more dough than I'd use).  FWIW, Gregg recommended a .13 TF in his recipe on the other page linked up there in the first post on this thread.

Really, given the high hydration and zero added fat, I'd imagine this pie is unlike any commercially available DD pizza in Chicago.  It sounds like lean bread topped with cheese and sauce.  How long did you knead it for?  Did it have quite a bit of chew? 

The ATK recipe is pretty much considered a joke around here.  There should be no cornmeal, for starters.   

The best recipes for DD I've tried from this board run in the 25% fat range (blend of oils, butter, what-have-you).  If you want to try the best this board has to offer, I'd suggest BTB's recipe (here) and VCB's recipe (here)[PDF].

So rather than try to describe the characteristics in words, I'd suggest trying both of these recipes that have been heavily vetted and universally beloved on these boards. 

Cheers,
Garvey

[rcbaughn]

Deep dish is actually pretty thin crusted, I would say around 1/4" at the most really on the bottom. Most all recipes I've seen and used have a high amount of corn oil in them too, or veggie oil in a pinch, and some with just a bit of melted butter as well. The hydrations are usually low as well from everything I read, and I did do a good bit of reading before I made my first crack at Chicago deep dish. Does yours have a solid layer of sausage in it? I usually use a full three links and take the sausage out of the casing and make a big "patty" to go on top of the mozzarella, then top that with the sauce and then grate some parm. If it doesn't have the sausage patty it ain't deep dish from everything I've read! LOL.

And all the crusts I've made haven't been bready at all and require little kneading, around 1 min at the most. You just want to bring the ball together and then let it rest in the fridge overnight and it all comes together nicely. It isn't biscuity but isn't your typical NY kinda crust. Something completely different. It kind of looks like the pie you made is a thick pan pizza kinda like Pizza Hut and not a Chicago style deep dish.

EDIT******** - Garvey said it better and posted right before I got this posted.

[Chicago Bob]

I made a BTB recipe DD just last night and I used 325g of dough in a 9in Chicago Mettalic black anodized 1.5 in. lip pan.
I think that was just about the perfect amount...350g would not hurt. Pinch it up tight on that rim.  

[petef]

Really, given the high hydration and zero added fat, I'd imagine this pie is unlike any commercially available DD pizza in Chicago.  It sounds like lean bread topped with cheese and sauce.  How long did you knead it for?  Did it have quite a bit of chew? 


The best recipes for DD I've tried from this board run in the 25% fat range (blend of oils, butter, what-have-you).  If you want to try the best this board has to offer, I'd suggest BTB's recipe (here) and VCB's recipe (here)[PDF].

I kneaded about 5 minutes. The crust was not too tough.
Thanks for the suggestions to other proven recipes.
I'll definitely look into those for my next attempt.

One more thing I have to say, about the hydration level of both recipes is related to freezing leftovers and reheating. Days after baking these pies I'm eating the reheated frozen leftover slices and the crust is too mushy. The ATK pie is much more mushy than Gregg's. So lower hydration is definitely desirable for my next attempt.

---pete---

[petef]

Does yours have a solid layer of sausage in it? I usually use a full three links and take the sausage out of the casing and make a big "patty" to go on top of the mozzarella, then top that with the sauce and then grate some parm. If it doesn't have the sausage patty it ain't deep dish from everything I've read! LOL.

I used sausage on one and peperoni on the other, but neither had a "solid" layer as you describe it. I can now see why that solid layer is necessary. With all that sauce, I could barely taste the sausage or pepperoni in either pie.

Hey guys, I initially thought I did very well on my first attempt at deep dish pizza, but I see now that there's plenty of room for improvement. That's fantastic. I now have something greater to strive for. I greatly appreciate all the critiques and suggestions. Looking forward to even better results next time.

---pete---

[Gregg]

Pete, you did do very well for your first deep dish pizza, and if you were happy with the results, it's all that matters. Remember that all things, no matter how good, have room for improvement. I don't get too caught up in the "authentic" talk, because if authentic isn't to my liking, then it's of no use. My taste buds, my rules.

[Garvey]

I don't get too caught up in the "authentic" talk, because if authentic isn't to my liking, then it's of no use. My taste buds, my rules.

Of course, taste matters.  But OTOH, if someone is specifically wanting to make an authentic such-and-such, then it is useful to have standards and a shared set of criteria.  Otherwise, definitions and words become meaningless.  If I put a scoop of ice cream on top of a banana and think it's delicious, that doesn't automatically mean I can call it a hamburger, just because my taste buds, my rules.  That's a little silly.

[Chicago Bob]

Everyone, this thread is about my attempts to make Chicago Deep Dish Pizza using recipes by forum member "Gregg", and America's Test Kitchen (ATK).


---pete---

 

[Gregg]

Pete, I understand what your objective was and your results look great. I was wondering how long it would take before a self-appointed arbiter of what constitutes authentic showed up. Dismissing someone's thoughts as silly because they differ from yours comes across as pretentious. I was talking about alterations to a specific recipe, not arbitrary naming procedures. Thanks for playing, your participation ribbon is in the mail.  

*edited to correct a spelling error *

[Garvey]

Wait, so I did make a hamburger?  Sweet!    

[Chicago Bob]

That was one CrAzY look'in hamburger there boy!   

[petef]

Ok everyone, I had frozen some of Gregg's recipe dough and used it for my second attempt at Chicago Deep Dish Pizza. Here's what I did differently this time...

* Used a brand new heavier 8" diameter pan with slightly angled sides instead of 90 deg sides as used last time. I only changed pans because this pan has handles and my previous pan was a bit hard to mange without handles.

* Instead of a 14 ounce dough ball, I reduced it to 9 ounces to get a thinner crust.

* Instead of a using a sparse amount of sausage, I used 2 full cups of sausage & mushrooms to form a thick dense layer on top of the 2 cups of shredded mozzarella cheese.

* I waited until the last few minutes of the bake to sprinkle on some Parmesan cheese.

* I provided a more complete set of pics below.

[Chicago Bob]

Looks quite tasty there Pete, great work!
Are you allowing your dough to sit/proof awhile in the pan before going to bake?

PS...your pics look really well captured.

[petef]

Pete, you did do very well for your first deep dish pizza, and if you were happy with the results, it's all that matters. Remember that all things, no matter how good, have room for improvement. I don't get too caught up in the "authentic" talk, because if authentic isn't to my liking, then it's of no use. My taste buds, my rules.

I hear you Gregg. Actually, I appreciate all the critique because I'd like to get as close to "authentic" as possible just so I understand what the style is all about. Especially since I'll never get to Chicago. Once that is achieved I can readjust the recipe to my own liking. One thing for sure, I don't like the ATK recipe and won't be making that one anymore. All that buttery taste and the dense texture don't suit my tastes at all. Your dough recipe is much better for flavor and texture.  I might even prefer the (your) thicker dough rather than the thin crust of the authentic deep dish. Again, thanks for sharing your recipe!

---pete---