Author Topic: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate  (Read 4769 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« on: September 25, 2012, 08:17:37 PM »
Hi everyone,

I am trying to remake this calzone that I get at a place called Monte Cello's in Cranberry, PA.  The color is beautiful and the texture is great.  I use BF and they come out okay but can't get the deep brown coloring.  I've tried baking at 450 and 550 but my results are pretty much the same.  Am I to assume they are also using All Trumps Bromated Flour since they are in the east coast?  Sorry for pic link but I am posting this from my iPhone.

Monte Cellos calzone

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m200/nestlund/3334F889-2E2D-4C43-A67C-E08F8DC893A7-790-000000916B92113C.jpg

Mine

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m200/nestlund/AE80A66E-4E2C-4AD3-8C2A-7219AAA895D6-790-0000009705B33075.jpg




« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:56:27 PM by pythonic »
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scott123

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 08:45:09 PM »
If all you're looking for is more browning, then that's relatively simple- more sugar and oil in the dough (and greater convection, if your oven will allow it).

If, on the other hand, you want a perfect replica, using the exact flour that they use... predicting the flour that a 30 year old Pittsburgh pizzeria uses is no easy task.  It could be All Trumps, but it could also be Full Strength or even All Purpose.  If you could get a slice of the regular pizza and describe the texture, that could help identify the flour, but high amounts of oil can skew those findings.

Perhaps if a forum member in the Pittsburgh area could do a little reconnaissance, that would help.

I can tell you, from a NY perspective, the pizza they sell is not along the lines of an 'east coast' pizza and thus you can't be assured that it's All Trumps.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 11:22:53 AM »
Scott,

The browning and texture (thin and crispy) is really what I am going for.    I live in Chicago and the Midwest simply has no clue what they are doing when it comes to a calzone.  They make them using their same cracker crust dough, exclude the ricotta and add sauce inside them.  Monte Cello's definitely isn't ny style on the head but it's closer than Chicago or even Ohio could reproduce.  Below is a link to their pizza crumb.  To me it tasted drier than what I am used to (say 57-59%).  Their is definitely a hint of sugar or barley malt in it too.  Oil as well.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m200/nestlund/402F05F2-0D3C-4E25-8A04-98A0E97E4106-790-0000018F35E92582.jpg
        
At home I do have a convection oven but haven't played with it too much.

Nate

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:56:58 PM by pythonic »
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scott123

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 08:58:22 PM »
Nate, I'm going to throw out some thoughts with the understanding that I believe this is a chain/NY hybrid and a bit outside of my realm of expertise.  With his Papa John cloning experience, I think Peter could be in a better position to offer advice here, so if he disagrees with anything I say, I'd defer to his recommendations.

The crumb shot seems to reveal the slightly darker shade of a long fermented (at least overnight) dough.  As I look at Monte Cello's on a map, the proximity of the locations seems to indicate the possibility of centrally prepared commissary dough, which, in turn, usually translates into multi day ferments.

I'm getting a strong sheeter/conveyor/docking vibe.  I've never seen a calzone cooked in a conveyor, but, if the conveyor is slow enough, I think it's possible.  As far as calzones go, these look a lot thinner crusted than most. I'm curious, from your memory, was the filling napalm hot straight from the oven?

I haven't really talked about this a great deal, but convection can be a player in oven thermodynamics.  There's a lot more moving air in a gas oven than an electric one, and, if Monte Cello is an impingement conveyor, then that's only going to be even more convection. I'd definitely play around with your oven's convection feature. When it comes to golden brown and crispy, convection tends to be king (along with sugar and oil, of course).

I wouldn't go with a straight Papa John's recipe, but I'd use it as a starting point, comparing it to the recipe you're using now:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762

7% oil and 4% sugar might be too much, but I wouldn't rule them out. I would also take a cue from Peter and go with KABF (or better for bread).  Since I really believe the flour could be anywhere between 11 and 14%, it's better to shoot for the middle, so if you are off, you're not off by too much. It's also possible, since 14% bromated may not have been the norm 30 years ago, that Monte Cello was using something softer and never changed. I know that when you look at the ubiquity of 14% bromated in NY, it's frequently the really old school places that stray from the norm with softer flour. Not that 30 years is really 'old school' for NY, but, for Pittsburgh, it might be.

How much oil and sugar are you using now?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 09:03:40 PM by scott123 »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 10:55:01 PM »
Their pizza is definitely baked on a conveyor because I've seen it and from the bottom indentations but the calzones do not have any.  The filling comes out piping hot.   I'm pretty sure they sell more calzones than pizza though, it's that damn good.

Right now I use 2% oil and sugar.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 10:56:51 PM by pythonic »
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Offline atom

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 11:54:49 PM »
There is a Montecello's in north park isn't there? I had an employee that raved about Montecello's pizza and I believe I did try it once... and was not impressed. Sorry to take the post off topic a little, I miss Pittsburgh. I know c0mpl3x used to work at a Vocellis (yuck) in the Pittsburgh area and he may have some input on Montecellos.

scott123

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 11:58:16 PM »
Nate, I would increase the oil to 5% and the sugar to 3%, decrease the water to 58% (if using KABF) and use convection during the bake. I would try 500 and see what kind of browning that gives you in 8 minutes with convection.

If they sell a lot of calzones, then chances are that they can't bake them for too long. When you order a calzone, any idea of the wait time?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2012, 07:36:55 AM »
Nate, I would increase the oil to 5% and the sugar to 3%, decrease the water to 58% (if using KABF) and use convection during the bake.

This was my first reaction as well. Even browning of that nature is produced by adding oil and sugar at higher than normal percentages.

John

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2012, 08:05:09 AM »
There is a Montecello's in north park isn't there? I had an employee that raved about Montecello's pizza and I believe I did try it once... and was not impressed. Sorry to take the post off topic a little, I miss Pittsburgh. I know c0mpl3x used to work at a Vocellis (yuck) in the Pittsburgh area and he may have some input on Montecellos.

Yes I believe there is.  I agree about the pizza but their calzones are excellent!
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2012, 08:12:30 AM »
Scott,

I'll give those numbers a try.  Their wait time is 15 minutes for the calzones.

Another mystery is how they press out the sides.  There are no press marks or crunchy edges which makes the exterior perfect.  If u egg wash or butter the seals will it hold?
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scott123

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 02:43:19 PM »
On the pizza side if they say "15 minutes," that usually means a less than 10 minute bake, so I'd probably assume the same thing here.

Butter won't seal a calzone.  Egg wash will, or it could  be water. Are you sure there aren't marks from docking?  If they're docking skins- which I think they might be, it only makes sense that they might use the docker to seal the calzone. It does look like they add a vent for steam on top. A vent will go a long way in making sure the seal doesn't lose integrity.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 08:37:34 PM »
Did some more research today and found out some valuable info.

Their conveyor ovens are set to 525.
They cook their pizzas on a screen but their calzones are baked on a preferated disc.
Before the calzone is baked it gets brushed with (butter or oil) and then sprinkled with salt and pepper.
Bake time is somewhere between 6-9 mins.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

scott123

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2012, 02:23:04 AM »
That's some useful reconnaissance, Nate.

With the application of melted butter, you might be able to back off the oil in the dough a tiny bit, although, from the photo of the pizza rim, I'd still stick to at least 4% oil.

Matching the thermodynamics of their 'disc' could be more trouble than it's worth.  I would bake the calzone on a 550 stone, seeing what kind of color you get in 8 minutes.

Do they brush both sides with butter? Is the calzone golden brown on both sides?

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2012, 06:34:54 AM »
Yes the calzone is brown like that on both sides.  I will try my stone again but the edges tend to get hard when baked on it.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 09:32:00 PM »
Calzone crust turned out better this time.  I cooked it on a cheap pizza pan on top of a preheated stone for around 7 1/2 minutes (convection) at 525.  I used Scott123s AP/AT pizza formulation as a starting point.  Next batch I will add a little more sugar to see if I can get even more browning.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 09:38:19 PM »
Thats a pretty nice looking calzone to me! Im sure it tasted just fine too. :chef:
Chaz

Offline atom

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2012, 12:20:25 PM »
Oh yeah baby that's what I'm taking about. Break out the Dunedin!

Offline weemis

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2012, 12:30:38 PM »
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

scott123

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 12:39:32 PM »
Nate, you brushed it with butter, correct?  Besides additional sugar, I definitely think this is high-ish oil dough. Since the recipe you're using 3% now, you can try 4%, but I might skip 4% and take it to 5%.  At the same time, you also might want to dial back the hydration a percentage point because of the whole effective hydration thing.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Calzone crust I am trying to replicate
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2012, 07:02:53 PM »
Yes Scott I brushed it with butter.  I will take the oil up to 5% and drop the hydration to say 62% from the original 63.6%.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.