Author Topic: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?  (Read 2245 times)

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Offline Chaze215

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I see a lot of the dough recipes call for IDY. Can you substitute one for the other by increasing/decreasing the amount ADY?
Just curious. Thanks in advance!

Chaz
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 09:38:04 PM »
Here is a conversion table. http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

You may need to treat ADY and CY a little differently than IDY. IMO, ADY should be dissolved in tepid water (taken from the formula water) rather than adding it directly to the dough as you would IDY.
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 10:12:36 PM »
Thanks for that table Craig.I have dissolved ADY in tepid water and also have just added it directly to the dough and I have to say, I didnt see much difference. Maybe Im just a rookie and cant really see a difference.  :-\
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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 10:23:58 PM »
Thanks for that table Craig.I have dissolved ADY in tepid water and also have just added it directly to the dough and I have to say, I didnt see much difference. Maybe Im just a rookie and cant really see a difference.  :-\

Other people have reported the same thing. My theory is simply better safe than sorry.
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Offline rcbaughn

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 10:40:16 PM »
I've tried not dissolving ADY before adding it to flour and I didn't get the same amount of lift, so now I always dissolve ADY or IDY. I throw in the sweetener too just to give it a jump start on activating. I get a frothy head on the liquid within 5 mins. It doesn't seem to speed up the rise that much though, just makes sure my yeast is alive and well.
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Offline atom

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 07:29:51 AM »
My rule of thumb has always been to increase volume by 25%. I am a dissolver as well. I make a "yeast paste" with flour water and yeast. This is to substitute for the reccomended sugar proof.

Offline Giggliato

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 10:00:19 PM »
I'm not completely familiar with the differences between ADY and IDY (although I did just start starters for about 300 pounds of dough with ADY) ADY is covered in dead yeast for protection, IDY has a different kind of protection. IDY lasts longer.

The dead yeast cells covering ADY interact in an unknown way with the gluten in the dough.

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 11:29:25 PM »
The dead yeast cells covering ADY interact in an unknown way with the gluten in the dough.

I've never heard anything like this.  ???
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 11:37:56 PM »
Chau also posted a conversion table that he "did".  I have it printed and taped to the back of the wine/liquor cabinet door.

 I just checked it and it is the same site that Craig gave, but with mathmatical examples given.

Here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11738.0.html ;D
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 11:39:47 PM by Jet_deck »
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 11:41:55 PM »
I wish I had a wine/liquor door...


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 11:42:24 PM »
I'm not completely familiar with the differences between ADY and IDY I agree



(although I did just start starters for about 300 pounds of dough with ADY) A preferment, or a starter?
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2012, 11:44:48 PM »
I wish I had a wine/liquor door...

It is not as glamorous as described.  Just a cabinet above the oven.  Both liquids can be found behind the door.  It's not a walk-in like Craig's. :'(
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 02:15:13 PM »
I've never heard anything like this.  ???


I have never heard of this either. What I have learned, however, from what member November has posted before, is that the dead yeast cells that are present with ADY make it harder to kill the ADY (possiby by surrounding and protecting the live cells) and that the dead yeast cells provide a source of nutrients for the ADY. In fact, November so strongly believes in these attributes of ADY that he says he will never use any other form of yeast. From what he has said, he does not have any IDY on hand. What November has tried to explain is that yeast has to "worry" about where its source of nutrients is to come from. I think that was the point he was trying to make in this interesting post, at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3557.msg32251/topicseen.html#msg32251.

I might add that November happens to like the taste of yeast. While I haven't tested the thesis, I think it is possible that the dead yeast cells impart their own flavor profile that may not be present with IDY.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 02:19:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Don K

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2012, 08:36:35 PM »
The dead yeast cells covering ADY interact in an unknown way with the gluten in the dough.
I've never heard anything like this.  ???
I have never heard of this either.


I found this document a while back that has a lot of good information about yeast:
 http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF03.pdf
Below is an excerpt from the section on ADY. Perhaps what I've highlighted in red is what Giggliato is referring to:
Quote
After the yeast has been reactivated it may be added to the mixing bowl at any time of the process. There are not many benefits to using active dry yeast. One may be that it tends to provide a more yeasty flavor to the bread. The other is that it has a slight reducing effect on the dough. Yeast cells contain a substance in them called glutathione. Glutathione is a reducing agent that relaxes the protein in the dough. It is contained in the cell of living yeast and only becomes accessible once the yeast has died. Because deactivated yeast has a high content of dead yeast cells, it is sometimes favored for its relaxing properties in the production of pizza dough or pan bread. The effect of the glutathione in the dough allows for easier shaping and less shrinkage.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 01:50:31 AM »
I found this document a while back that has a lot of good information about yeast:
 http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF03.pdf
Below is an excerpt from the section on ADY. Perhaps what I've highlighted in red is what Giggliato is referring to:


It's hard for me to believe there is enough present in a typical formula to make a noticeable difference, but the science behind it is sound.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 08:54:13 AM »
Don,

What Giggliato posted was as follows:

The dead yeast cells covering ADY interact in an unknown way with the gluten in the dough.

The problem I have with the glutathione thesis is that its effect on protein is well known. In fact, the very first post I entered on this forum, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159, was about glutathione. That was back in July, 2004. I have been paying attention to articles about glutathione ever since. Usually, the problem with glutathione is most pronounced when freezing fresh yeast. But it can also exist with frozen doughs. One can even purchase dead yeast to use to replicate the softening effects on glutathione, as well as contributing to a yeasty flavor in the finished crust. Tom Lehmann has written often on this subject. See, for example, Tom's PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=15803#p15803, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10174&p=72903&hilit=glutathione+lehmann#p72903 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=63060#p63060.

I have made many frozen doughs and while I use more yeast (dry yeast) than normal to make such doughs, because of the damaging effects of freezing on the yeast, I can't say that I have ever experienced a softening of the dough because of glutathione. There may be some glutathione in such doughs but, like Craig, I would guess that it is there in very small amounts.

Hopefully, Giggliato will return to elaborate further on what he had in mind.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 09:24:35 AM »
Peter,

I have some Hodgson Mill ADY at home and also some IDY.  Is there any way I could do an experiment with Caputo flour using both yeasts to see if there is any taste difference in the crust when using ADY?  I think I can bake the dough balls at Steveís in his WFO. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 09:41:21 AM »
I have some Hodgson Mill ADY at home and also some IDY.  Is there any way I could do an experiment with Caputo flour using both yeasts to see if there is any taste difference in the crust when using ADY?  I think I can bake the dough balls at Steveís in his WFO. 


Norma,

Unless your dough formulation calls for a lot of yeast, either IDY or ADY, you may not be able to detect the flavors of either in the finished crust. As I noted in Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg166378/topicseen.html#msg166378, Professor Calvel said that you need to get to around 2.5% fresh yeast to be able to detect it in the finished bread. He did not say anything about the corresponding dry yeast levels but if we use the usual conversion factors, 2.5% fresh yeast would translate to about 1.25% ADY and 0.83% IDY. I don't know if those numbers are comparable from a taste standpoint but if the fermentation period is too long, I suspect that some of the taste contributions of the yeasts diminish the longer the fermentation period.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 11:07:00 AM »
Norma,

Unless your dough formulation calls for a lot of yeast, either IDY or ADY, you may not be able to detect the flavors of either in the finished crust. As I noted in Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg166378/topicseen.html#msg166378, Professor Calvel said that you need to get to around 2.5% fresh yeast to be able to detect it in the finished bread. He did not say anything about the corresponding dry yeast levels but if we use the usual conversion factors, 2.5% fresh yeast would translate to about 1.25% ADY and 0.83% IDY. I don't know if those numbers are comparable from a taste standpoint but if the fermentation period is too long, I suspect that some of the taste contributions of the yeasts diminish the longer the fermentation period.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for posting that unless the dough formulation calls for a lot of yeast, the taste of the yeast in the finished crust would not be noticeable. 

I guess those high levels of yeast you posted would only relate to an emergency dough.  I guess I can then also relate to Novemberís post on if too much yeast is used he thinks the high amounts of yeast will then actually diminish the crust flavors if the dough is fermented too long.

Norma
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Offline cwood

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Re: If you dont have IDY, is there a way to substitute ADY in a recipe?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 07:08:24 AM »
My experience (and I learned a big lesson) is that dumping ADY directly into the ingredients gave me a vastly different result than proofing it vs IDY directly in.  I started my pizza making with ADY not knowing that there was IDY.  I always followed the soak method until I noted people saying just dump the yeast in and that proofing wasn't needed.  I then struggled with oddly flat and dense dough for about a month thinking I was screwing something up but the only thing I had really changed was not proofing the ADY first.  I then learned that there was IDY and that was what people were talking about!  I have not looked back.

This was true blind (dumbass) testing with the same brand of IDY and ADY.


 

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