Author Topic: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....  (Read 3048 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« on: September 26, 2012, 06:19:16 PM »
Mix tonite (Wed), ball in 24 hrs, use on Sunday 3pm

Flour (100%):    1096.33 g  |  38.67 oz | 2.42 lbs
Water (60%):    657.8 g  |  23.2 oz | 1.45 lbs
IDY (.016%):    0.18 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Salt (2.8%):    30.7 g | 1.08 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.5 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
Total (162.816%):   1785 g | 62.96 oz | 3.94 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   255 g | 8.99 oz | 0.56 lbs

Any guesses on how it will turn out?
Paolo


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 06:34:53 PM »
Mix tonite (Wed), ball in 24 hrs, use on Sunday 3pm

Flour (100%):    1096.33 g  |  38.67 oz | 2.42 lbs
Water (60%):    657.8 g  |  23.2 oz | 1.45 lbs
IDY (.016%):    0.18 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Salt (2.8%):    30.7 g | 1.08 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.5 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
Total (162.816%):   1785 g | 62.96 oz | 3.94 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   255 g | 8.99 oz | 0.56 lbs

Any guesses on how it will turn out?

Paolo,

I think it will work but it will depend on the room temperature at which the dough is fermented. What you propose to do reminds me of the post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. Our yeast quantities are quite close, but your hydration is higher than what I used, which should speed up the fermentation process. On the other hand, your higher salt content should slow down the fermentation process. Also, you are using a bulk fermentation, which should proceed faster than with a single dough ball. So, there are several races going on at the same time that will have to be resolved at some point.

Peter

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 06:51:11 PM »
Paolo,

I think it will work but it will depend on the room temperature at which the dough is fermented. What you propose to do reminds me of the post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. Our yeast quantities are quite close, but your hydration is higher than what I used, which should speed up the fermentation process. On the other hand, your higher salt content should slow down the fermentation process. Also, you are using a bulk fermentation, which should proceed faster than with a single dough ball. So, there are several races going on at the same time that will have to be resolved at some point.

Peter

Peter, based on your theory, since I am using an 87 hr rise, I have decided to lower my yeast, increase my salt and bulk rise only for 1hr.

That should slow things down a bit while still keeping the rise at room temp of 68F

My new formula will now be:

Flour (100%):    1094.99 g  |  38.62 oz | 2.41 lbs
Water (60%):    656.99 g  |  23.17 oz | 1.45 lbs
IDY (.015%):    0.16 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.05 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
Salt (3%):    32.85 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.89 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
Total (163.015%):   1785 g | 62.96 oz | 3.94 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   255 g | 8.99 oz | 0.56 lbs

Thanks for your input.....

Any other comments always welcomed......
Paolo

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 07:03:04 PM »
Paolo,

I completely missed the fact that your total fermentation time will be 87 hours. If I have a chance, maybe I can do a few calculations to see what I get.

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 07:45:53 PM »
This is an interesting experiment. I am not sure what the advantage would be, being such a long room temp fermentation, in regards to texture or flavor. But I am looking forward to your bake and results.

I am assuming this is Caputo?

John

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 07:47:19 PM »
Paolo,

I used the example I gave at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 but changed the fermentation temperature to 68 degrees F (20 degrees C) and the fermentation duration to 87 hours and got a yeast value of 0.0044% IDY. Everything else in the formulation remained the same.

In the same thread that I referenced earlier, I made a dough with only 0.00449% IDY, again at a room temperature of 82 degrees F. The dough doubled in about 24 hours, when I was looking for a doubling after 48 hours. See Reply 58 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78689.html#msg78689. In that case, I put the dough in the refrigerator to slow everything down.

Subsequently, in the same thread, member widespreadpizza and I both made doughs without any commercial yeast whatsoever. Those experiments were reported starting at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78705.html#msg78705. I reported on my results at Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78779.html#msg78779. Without any commercial yeast whatsoever, but with a room temperature of about 82 degrees F, my dough made it out to 30 hours.

Your formulation is somewhat different than the ones I used but I think the above examples demonstrate how important the fermentation temperature and yeast quantity are. I used the methodology given by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 to do my yeast conversion except that my example is simpler than the one given in that thread.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:35:02 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 08:06:58 PM »
This is an interesting experiment. I am not sure what the advantage would be, being such a long room temp fermentation, in regards to texture or flavor. But I am looking forward to your bake and results.

I am assuming this is Caputo?

John

Yes, Caputo pizzeria.

This experiment is just another excuse for me to play with dough...... ;D

Actually I am going to make another batch for the same party on Sunday, but will be using Craig's formula of 24hr bulk/24 hr balls.

I look forward in just seeing how differently the doughs will perform in the same exact oven and with the same exact toppings.....
Paolo

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 08:12:18 PM »
Peter, your calculations are way too much (and precise) for me..... I am only a dentist..... :)

Now I got to get back to slap and fold....

Hopefully I can learn something from it, and if it starts to ferment to fast I would have to place the dough in the fridge...... time will tell....
Paolo

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2012, 07:43:31 AM »
I used the example I gave at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 but changed the fermentation temperature to 68 degrees F (20 degrees C) and the fermentation duration to 87 hours and got a yeast value of 0.0023% IDY. Everything else in the formulation remained the same.

My initial reaction was that the yeast quantity was too high to last 87 hours, but I did not have any informed experience to back it up.

Paolo, let us know when it doubles and the exact temp.

John

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2012, 08:46:34 AM »
John, after I let it bulk rise for 1 hr at room temp 70F, I balled and placed the container in my temperature controlled wine cellar at 55F.

Re-reading Peter's post and calculation results I decided to slow the process of fermentation down a bit further for extra longevity......

I will post results and pics of the pies compared to 48hr rise method
Paolo


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 08:53:49 AM »
Paolo,

Like John mentioned, I'd also be interested in knowing when the dough doubles in volume and at what temperature (I assume 55 degrees F).

Peter

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2012, 09:12:30 AM »
Paolo,

Like John mentioned, I'd also be interested in knowing when the dough doubles in volume and at what temperature (I assume 55 degrees F).

Peter

You got it.

Thanks for the interest!
Paolo

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2012, 09:44:52 AM »
Paolo,

As I was redoing my numbers to see the effects of using 55 degrees F for 87 hours, but using the dough formulation in my example, I discovered that I had made a math error. The amount of yeast (IDY) should have been 0.0044%. I then repeated the exercise using 87 hours at 55 degrees F, and the amount I got for the yeast this time was 0.0116%. So, if my numbers for my example are correct, it looks like you should be in a workable range with 0.016% IDY. Nonetheless, the proof is in the pudding. So, I will be interested in your results, and especially to see the effects of the bulk ferment and the higher hydration and salt levels you used. In the meantime, you will want to note when the dough doubles, as recently mentioned, since the bulk ferment at 70 degrees F will affect that event. If the dough still ferments too fast, you can go to the refrigerator.

Peter


« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 10:17:30 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2012, 10:40:43 AM »
Paolo,

Followiing up on my last post, I decided to redo the numbers with my particular example to reflect the combination of one hour of bulk fermentation at 70 degrees F and 86 hours at 55 degrees F, for a total of 87 hours. This time, the amount of yeast (IDY) came to 0.01135%. That is just a bit less than the last value I came up with of 0.0116%. For comparison purposes, you are using 0.016%. 

Peter

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2012, 10:57:18 AM »
Thanks Peter, I will keep an eye on it and see how it develops......
Paolo

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2012, 06:37:59 PM »
Paolo,

Is there anything further to report on this experiment?

Peter

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 09:45:07 PM »
Paolo,

Is there anything further to report on this experiment?

Peter

Peter, thanks for asking.  The experiment of long fermentation proved to be a failure.  By the 80 hrs the balls had turned into a flat pancake.

It seemed there was no noticeable rise.  I stretched them out, placed them in the WFO and cooked them, the cornicione almost non-existent, I was too embarassed to even take pictures of them.  They were eatable, but nothing extraordinary.

Conclusion: never again long, minimal yeast fermentations for me.

My next experiment is going to be with 8-10hr room temp.total fermentation like suggested by an Italian pizza video course I purchased 

It just came to me, it seems like shorter fermentations work for pizzeria in Naples, why bother with 24-48hr or longer fermentations?
Paolo

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22174
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 10:36:39 AM »
Paolo,

Thank you for your reply. I think I have an idea as to what went wrong but before commenting further would you mind describing the dough in greater detail as it fermented, as well as the finished crust characteristics? For example, was there any point in the dough's development where the dough actually rose? And was the dough at the end of its long journey wet and clammy? And can you tell me what kind of storage containers you used?

Thanks.

Peter

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: MA
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2012, 11:05:10 AM »
Paolo,

Thank you for your reply. I think I have an idea as to what went wrong but before commenting further would you mind describing the dough in greater detail as it fermented, as well as the finished crust characteristics? For example, was there any point in the dough's development where the dough actually rose? And was the dough at the end of its long journey wet and clammy? And can you tell me what kind of storage containers you used?

Thanks.

Peter

Peter, I didn't see much rise. Wet and clammy, yes. Not much leopardization if any. I used the dough mate containers at 55F for probably 75hrs then 65F for 5 hrs, then up to 70F the last 6 to 7 hrs before baking.

I did proof the IDY before using and it was fine.  Maybe 3% was too much salt?

This is how I mixed the dough.

1. Water 2. Dissolved salt in water 3. added 1/2 of flour 4. added yeast  5. added remaining flour 6. mixed for 8 min. 7. rest in bowl 10 min. 8. slap and
fold X 3 with 10 min. intervals in between.

Very disappointing.....
Paolo

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1914
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: I am going to experiment with less yeast, longer fermentation.....
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2012, 11:28:19 AM »
 paolo, 80 hours is a long time to room ferment dough. if you are trying to create more flavor you are probably at the stage where the taste is sour an a little bitter.you need to let the dough dictate the length until you get a method that you can rely on consistently. i personally have been happy with 8 hour dough. i usually do 24 to 48 hour cold rise which is good only if you get the dough back to close to room temperature. if you do not it doesn't cook thru at high temperatures,has excessive bubbles,and is hard to stretch.
 you mentioned a Neapolitan pizza video, was it antonino esposito?if so he uses the vpn method and it is what the vpn restaurants in naples use. i found most vpn pizzerias close in taste as they do follow the same guidelines.the differences were in the ingredient choices and their flour mix.
 as a side note they all set dough aside and refrigerate it for the next day service.if they guess wrong then they are forced to use fresh dough that may not have the full six hours on it.
 good luck and keep us updated on you methods, we all love pictures!!!


 

pizzapan