American Pie's Chicago style

[Randy]

Well I said I was going to make DKM’s Chicago but I had forgot that I had said I would make Mr. Reinhart’s version.
The mixing instructions are unusual.  You put everything in the mixer at once then run it on low speed for four minutes, then let it rest for fifteen minutes then mix again for two minute.  All of this with the dough hook and all on low speed.
Before I could finish this entry the fifteen minute timer went off and I ran the mixer on slow speed per directions.
It was a disaster.  What a sticky mess.  Cranked the old KitchenAid to the proper knead speed and let it run for 10 minutes to get a window out of the dough.  What was he thinking?

In the book he says it will not improve with an overnight rise but I am going to anyway.
Right now I plan on placing the dough in the cooler for two days.

Maybe someone else will try his directions and prove me wrong.
Randy

[Randy]

I went through several recipes and the instructions were mostly the same.

Right now I am not a happy camper and hope someone can explain what he was thinking.  Maybe it was a poor choice of words and instead of low he meant knead speed but why would he have not said that to be sure and cover all mixer types.

Randy

[DKM]

I don't know.

Its on my schedule for Wednesday.

The Napoletana is scheduled for Saturday.

I just finished the extire book - travels, recipes, tips and all and I am very unimpressed.    Can't believe the reviews were so good.  

DKM

[Randy]

One item he does emphasize is the over night fermentation.  That one thing, as we know, can dramatically improve the flavor and make a good pizza be a great pizza.  That seems to be his main point.

Randy

[Randy]

I think if I change the mixing instructions to knead speed instead of low I will fully appreciate the recipes and find my pizza with the hydration of the flour during the fifteen minute hold.

The Chicago dough in the cooler has beautifully doubled since last night.  

Let's take a closer look at this fifteen minute hold he recommends.

Randy

[Randy]

Here is the reply that I got from Peter Reinhart.  It sets his objectives straight and gives us something new to thing about.
Very interesting indeed.

Randy
 
"What a great discussion! Thanks Randy for bringing up some of the confusions in my instructions, and thanks Pete for counting the revs. That was enlightening to me. On my KA the slowest speed (stir?)seems sufficient until the very end, when I usually kick it up one or two speeds to complete the gluten development. The long autolyse, as Pete pointed out, should make it possible for the dough to finish its development with very little additional mixing, regardless of speed. I actually prefer doing it by hand, using the wet hands method to prevent sticking, and it takes about 60 seconds to finish the job. The overnight development additionally strengthens the dough structure. The whole point was to get appropriate gluten development without overmixing the dough, to achieve a slightly organized gluten network but not a highly organized network (which would be more appropriate for soft, enriched doughs like brioche, or sandwich bread). The less organized network yields larger, irregular ciabatta-like holes rather than small, regular holes. The mixing methods employed in this book are definitely a result of my own evolution and experimentation in which I've tried to apply what I've learned since the previous books, especially about the value of shorter mixing cycles, long autolyses and fermentations, and the value of less rather than more gluten organization. Pizza doughs, with their relation to rustic doughs like ciabatta and pugliese, seem to be the perfect vehicles through which to apply these ideas, as I think some of you are finding. Sorry about the vagueness or lack of clarity of some of the instructions. I would love to have had the benefit of all this give and take before going to press. The particular issue raised by Randy wasn't brought up by any of the testers (we had over 100), so I thought I was home free, but as you can see, the serious commitment and passion of the Baking Circle is not to be taken lightly. I truly appreciate all your comments and suggestions. Peter R."

[Randy]

Here is the finished product.  It tasted of cornmeal.  One note, he said use corn flour and I did not so this could have been the problem.
Very nice crust though, crisp and flakey.

[DKM]

Mine got delayed  

Been busy and looks to stay that way for a few more days.

Hopefully Saturday.  I plan following the recipe as close as possible including a short rise time.

DKM

[Randy]

I am going to make his version of a New York for Saturday and I will use speed 2 on my KA were he says low speed but I will adhere to his times.  For a New York I would say his 15 minute hold will be good for our recipes.

Randy

[DKM]

It tasted of cornmeal.  One note, he said use corn flour and I did not so this could have been the problem.

That reminds me, I need to go shopping.  I writing my review for Amazon and here but I want to at least try two or three of his recipes as written.

DKM

[Randy]

You can see from Peter Reinhart’s reply he was not a happy camper with his testers.  His testers most likely used their own mixing instructions and not Peter’s and missed the problem.   With the exception of the Chicago pizza, I think this would be a great book to almost all.  Look how long it took all of us to get this far.  With this book I would cut about two years off my research.
I did take a closer look at the New York style and noticed it did say use medium low on the second mixing.  I will try his NY, his way.

Randy

[DKM]

I'm a little mixed on the book, which is why I want to try the recipes as he writes them.

I thought I would enjoy the first part of the book better but there were parts that annoyed me and there are a couple of 'facts' that conflict with other books and shows.

DKM

[Lydia]

What power is his KA??? I know my 6qt. kneads dough differently than my sister-in-laws 4.5 qt. on the same setting and same dough-hook. different wattage.

[buzz]

I read Reinhart's book when it came out, and if I recall, my thought was that he doesn't have a clue about how to make an authentic Chicago deep dish. It seemed to be just another promulgation of the old Jeff Smith recipe that's been floating around for years and tastes nothing like the pizza you find in the restaurants.

[pam]

Cranked the old KitchenAid to the proper knead speed and let it run for 10 minutes to get a window out of the dough.

Huh? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but why in the world would you shoot for a dough window with Chicago-style dough? Isn't that going to produce a bready crust rather than a biscuit crust? Is that something you aim for generally with Chicago-style crusts, or was it simply a one-off to try and correct for the problem with that dough batch?

Also, I haven't tried the American Pie recipe, but the 6 min. mixing time (total), esp. in a KA mixer, sounds overly long to me. I mix my Chicago-style dough by hand just long enough for the ingredients to combine the ingredients--usually < 30 sec.--then knead it on a very lightly floured bench (maybe 1 TBS flour) for no more than 2 min, and even with that minimal handling, I occasionally overwork the dough and end up with a bready crust.

 

[chiguy]

 Hi,
 I thought i might share some info on mixing times, All Purpose10-12% protein is mixed 5-7mins, Bread Flour 12-13% prot is mixed 7-10 min, and High GlutenFlour 13-14% is mixed 10-14 mins. I know these may sound high but under mixing is more common than over. I know you can get a great finished product from hand kneading, i used to do it myself years ago.But with your process for more consistency and more workable dough these are optimum mix times with a mixer.

[Pete-zza]

chiguy,

Since different mixers operate differently and have different operating speed settings, can you correlate your recommended knead times to some frame of reference? I might use knead times such as those you posted but I would use the stir or 1 speed on my KitchenAid mixer. If I used say, the 3 speed, I would overknead for sure with my mixer.

Peter

[pam]

I switched hand mixing for Chicag0-style dough because I was never able to achieve a flakey, biscuit-like crust using my KA. Even with only a 2 min. mix at stir speed, the crust was coming out bready. In fact, I was even getting better results mixing the dough with my food processor--multiple short pulses totalling 30-40 sec.--than with my KA.

Guess I need to do a side-by-side comparison of my normal hand mixing procedure and the 4 min. mix / 15 min. rest / 2 min. knead with my KA. Might as well throw in a food processor mix while I'm at it.

[chiguy]

 Hi, Peter
 There are also other factors that determine mix times such as batch size or the formulation of the dough. My reference is from a class i took called Pizza Crust Bootcamp
from Tim Huff at the pizza expo. Mix times will always vary but i was told these are ideal times to shoot for. The mixer was not specified but i also did take Tom Leahmans class Dough U he made a batch of dough(about 25lbs) using High Gluten Flour and mixed it for10 min on maybe speed 2(real slow) using aHobart 60qt. I use a 525watt K.A. mixer on speed 2, the smaller mixers are not recommended for much more than that when using higher protein flours.I mix my High Guten dough 60% hydro for 10 min. The range of mix times given by Tim are a little wide probably because of all the factors that go in to making a consistent quality dough. I still believe a 2 min knead time by hand may just not be enough for any type of dough,but if Pam or anyone else has a satisfying finished product,then they should not change a thing.   

[buzz]

If you want to make a restaurant-style (Giordano's, Uno's, Malnati's, etc.) Chicago-style deep dish dough, you can't knead it very long (I asked Tom Lehman about this once, and he said, "Would you knead a pie dough for ten minutes?"). The only way to produce a biscuit crust is to knead the dough for 1-2 minutes, just until it comes together into a ball. Kneading for a longer time (8-10 minutes) produces a breadlike crust (which is fine, if you like this).

AP flour is best for true Chicago-style deep dishes, while higher gluten flour can beused for longer kneads and crisper crusts (although you can make an excellent cracker crust using AP flour).

I like to knead by hand because I make smaller pizzas and I think it's fun (although for cracker crusts I let my bread machine do the work)!