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Offline sb 44 champs

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cold fermentation questions- Results
« on: September 28, 2012, 06:43:21 AM »
I'm really confused. I've read tons of posts about cold fermentation and the more I read, the more confused I get.
I really like Margherita Pizza's so I'm trying to find a dough recipe I like.
Here's the latest dough recipe. Made Wed night and in the fridge. Plan is to make/cook Sat. This recipe came from this site.
 
"Pizzzzagirl's 12-Inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe"
100 %, Bread flour, 7.15 oz. (202.03 g.), (1 1/2 c. plus 2 T. plus 5/8 t.)*
63 %, Water (at around 100 degrees F), 4.50 oz. (127.65 g.), (1/2 c. plus 2 t.)
1 %, Oil, 0.07 oz. (2.03 g.), (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
1.75 %, Salt (table salt), 0.13 oz. (3.55 g.), (a bit over 5/8 t.)
0.4 %, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.03 oz. (0.81 g.), (a bit over 1/4 t.)
Total dough weight = 11.88 oz. (336.66 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

I don't like thick crusts and I'm trying for something thin, crispy and a little chewey. My past problems have always been issues with stretching the dough. It always recoils back. I've read on this site that if that happens to let the dough rest for 10-15 minutes they re-work. So that is my plan for this dough if I have trouble stretching.

Here's my questions:
Can you do a cold ferment with any pizza dough recipe and if so should I cut back on the IDY, salt, etc?
Can you obtain a great dough, texture & flavor,  by doing an extended (24 hrs) rise on the counter?

I apologize if I posted in the wrong place. Please move if necessary.
Eddie
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 05:52:19 PM by sb 44 champs »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: cold fermentation questions
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 07:25:34 AM »
Eddie,

The recipe you posted will produce a pizza with the crust that is a bit on the thick side. However, you have a couple of options if you want to make a thinner crust. The first one is to simply stretch the dough to form a 14" pizza rather than a 12" pizza. That will reduce the thickness factor from 0.105 to 0.0772. A second possibility, for your next dough batch, is to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and plug in whatever numbers you want, the number of pizzas you want, and the sizes you want. You would use the same baker's percents in the recipe you posted.

With respect to your first question, yes, it is possible to convert most recipes to achieve a longer (or shorter) fermentation window. But that is not easy to do and there are very few members who know how to do it, either intuitively or by using some fairly complicated mathematical calculations. Most rely on trial and error and experimenting with their doughs until they achieve the desired results. But, generally speaking, if you want to extend the fermentation window of a particular dough, you reduce the amount of yeast. The rest of the ingredients can remain the same except that if your recipe uses a fair amount of yeast you might want to add about 1-2% sugar if the fermentation period (cold fermentation) is to exceed about 2-3 days. If you keep the amount of yeast low, you might not need to add any sugar even for a 2+day cold fermentation. I have made doughs that have lasted up to 23 days without any added sugar and got good crust coloration and even sweetness in the finished crust.

With respect to your second question, yes, it is possible to get good results using just room temperature fermentation. However, the elephant in the room is the room temperature. All else being equal, the room temperature will dictate the final results, including the point where the dough will be ready to use. If you do not control the fermentation temperature, you will have no say in the matter as to when the dough will be ready for use. You can read more on this subject in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 07:27:18 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: cold fermentation questions
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 08:22:10 AM »
Thanks Peter. I appreciate your response and knowledge you have regarding pizza's.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: cold fermentation questions
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2012, 05:24:05 PM »
Must say I'm embarrassed with the way the pizza looks and debated whether or not to post pics. Figured I need to keep track of my accomplishments so I posted.
Took the dough out of the fridge this morning at 6am. Let rise until 12, as I had some errands to run. The 6 hr rise just about doubled in size.
Placed on a board to stretch. Initially, it recoiled as all the other doughs I did. So let it rest for 15 min and it was more managable but it still recoiled a bit. Could not get it in a circle so just let it be.

Planned on cooking on my Big Steel Keg but it's raining here so opted to bake on the oven @ 460*.
Toppings included whole milk mozzarela, sauce (peter reinhardts), ham and sprinkled fresh dried basil as didn't have any more basil leaves.
It took about 7-8 minutes which is longer than I want but can't complain since it was done in an oven.
Results were ok. The sauce flavor was good along with the cheese and ham. The crust was decent. The outside rim was chewy but the bottom was overly crispy. Would like for it to be a bit softer.
Not sure what may have contributed to the extra crispy crust, maybe too long of a rise. If any one has an opinion, I would appreciate it.

Offline norma427

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 08:29:37 PM »
Eddie,

With a couple more attempts, I am sure will get the results you want.  As long as the pizza was tasty that is all that really matters.   :)

With you doing the 6 hour rise, after the cold ferment, your dough might have been hard to work with, if the dough doubled in size.  Maybe the next time you can do a 1 to 2 hour dough warm-up.  That is more in the lines of what you do with a cold fermented dough to let it warm-up.  Your dough shouldnít recoil when you want to stretch it.  The extra crispy crust could have been from the lower bake temperatures. 

How did you mix you dough and what did it look like when you made your dough ball?  Maybe we might be able to help you.  Also what are you baking your pizza on.  Do you have a pizza stone?  Did you read though the whole thread where your formulation came from?

If you take it a step at a time, you should be able to make a good pizza. 

Norma
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Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2012, 09:49:17 PM »
Thanks Norma for the reply.
I think part of the problem was the 6hr rise when i removed it from the frigde. I had intended to bake it early but some things came up after I took the dough out of the fridge. Lesson learned.

I mixed and kneaded by hand. Don't have a mixer yet. Should have one by next weekend and I think that alone will help with the end product.
I don't know an exact time for the kneading but think it was close to 8-10 min. The final dough ball was a bit rough and no where as smooth as some of the balls i've seen on this site. I think the issue could be lack of kneading.

I dont have a stone but I do have a Lodge cast iron pan, which is what i used. I normally grill my pizza's as my keg can get in excess of 700 degrees. Due to the weather, i baked it inside.

I'm still in the early stages of learning so I anticipate things will eventually improve.

Offline norma427

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 07:44:00 AM »
Eddie,

Other members mixed by hand and I do sometimes too.  It would probably depend on how aggressively you mixed by hand for 8-10 minutes.  Was the kneading part after you had mixed all the ingredients?  At 63% hydration the dough should have been soft.  Was it?  Do you own a scale to weigh the ingredients? 

I never tried to bake in a Lodge cast iron pan, so I have no idea how they bake. 

Things will improve if you keep attempting.  My first doughs sure did all kinds of crazy stuff and I even had a commercial mixer.  :-D I didnít use a decent scale or take a final dough temperature though.  I also had a lot to learn in the beginning.

Norma
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Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 09:37:13 AM »
Norma,

The kneading was after I added all the ingredients. The dough was not soft. It was actually sort of stiff. I'm guessing I didn't knead it long enough.
I do have a scale and I'm measured out the ingredients so I don't think the ingredients were off, unless my scale is off. I checked the weight about 6 mths ago with a 4 lb bag of sugar and it was accurate. Guess I need to check the accuracy again just to make sure it is right.

I think the cast iron pizza pan got to hot which may have contributed to the hard, crispy under crust. I'm trying to find a good pizza stone to use in place of the cast iron one. Only problem is there are none locally so I will need to find one online.

Gonna give another go today. Have one dough ball in the fridge that I subbed beer in place of water and getting ready to mix up a Lehmann emergency dough recipe for lunch today.
Thanks for the advice.

Offline norma427

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 10:40:49 AM »
Eddie,

Thanks for explaining that the kneading was after you added all the ingredients.  For your dough to be kinda stiff isnít what I thought it would be.  Maybe there might have been some kind of measuring error.  I have done that myself sometimes, even if the scale is accurate.

You may be right about the cast iron getting too hot.  I donít know what kind of pizza stone you have in mind, but there are good different ones online.  I use a regular cordierite pizza stone at home and at my momís home. 

Good luck with your dough that you subbed beer in place of the water and the Lehmann emegerency dough.

I will be looking forward to your posts.  After you get the basics down, it should be easier for you to produce the kind of pizza you want.  Of course, with each attempt you learn something.  I almost stayed on one dough until it came out right.  Even doing that I made many mistakes.

Norma
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Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 06:41:11 PM »
The emergency dough was a waste. Too dry and flaky after the two hr rise. Added some water and could not get it to turn out or even look like dough. Back to the drawing board.
The beer pizza dough was really good. Pretty easy to work with. Just a little spring so I let it rest for a few minutes and I was able to get it to shape into a semi circle. Did not use the CI pizza pan, opted for a reg pizza pan. The under crust was not crispy and was somewhat chewy.
I'll keep trying.


Offline norma427

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 07:57:18 PM »
Eddie,

Which emergency dough did you use?  Keep trying.  :) If you decide to stay with one formulation long enough you will might be able to learn more about one dough and how it handles.

Norma 
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Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 06:02:35 AM »
Norma,

I used this recipe:
High-gluten flour, 11.80 oz. (about 2 1/2 c.) FABF
Water, 7.70 oz. (about 1 c.) (about 65% hydration)
IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.) 
Salt, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
I used ADY in place of the IDY.
I must have measured out the water wrong or the flour. I'll keep trying until I get it right.

I decided I will stick with the beer dough I used and will go with the 1-2 day cold fermentation and a 2 hr rise at room temp. I'll play around with it until I get it mastered. Now I need to get going on my pizza oven.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 08:00:11 AM »
sb 44 champs,

Unfortunately, the dough recipe you used is not for an emergency dough although it could have been adapted to work as such. If you are interested in emergency doughs, you might scan the collection at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: cold fermentation questions- Results
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 08:42:50 AM »
Norma,

I decided I will stick with the beer dough I used and will go with the 1-2 day cold fermentation and a 2 hr rise at room temp. I'll play around with it until I get it mastered. Now I need to get going on my pizza oven.


Eddie,

Good luck with experimenting with your beer dough!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!