vpn 6 hour dough

[thezaman]

 after a busy weekend of neapolitan pizza sales i needed to whip up a batch for sunday sales. mixed at 11 am and used it at 5 pm.three grams of wet yeast per kilo of caputo 60 percent hydration  3 percent salt. 82 degrees  out of the machine .flavor was very good but the texture was the most dramatic difference, soft, light, and airy . it baked quick and complete.it does take a lot of flour to dry the outside of the ball so it maintain roundness when it is lifted from the tray.the slap gets all the excess off.pictures of dough and pie.

[TXCraig1]

Do you put oil on your Margherita post bake?

[Jackie Tran]

Nice job Larry.  I have posted similar results.  My best textured NP pie was made in 4 hrs using caputo and IDY.  No one believed me when I posted that despite posting the crumb shots.  Congrats, beautiful pies.

[dellavecchia]

Wow Larry, nicely done. I agree with Chau on texture with these short ferments. In fact my workflow has steadily decreased down to 8-10 hours.

John

[Mangia Pizza]

Awesome!
What would be the conversion of wet yeast to IDY?

[bakeshack]

Wow Larry, nicely done. I agree with Chau on texture with these short ferments. In fact my workflow has steadily decreased down to 8-10 hours.

John

John/Larry/Chau, how would you compare the difference in flavor from an 18-24 hr IDY or CY dough?  Is the flavor gained during the extra hours minimal?  Do you even notice a difference in flavor?

Marlon

[thezaman]

 craig, i do it post bake along with my romano cheese.i know you are not a fan of grated cheese on your pies.i like the little salty sharp hit.

  chau, i am not sure if the texture is better because it is same day or my refrigerated dough is not getting to room temperature before putting it in the oven.i feel the taste is as good as a 24 hour dough. longer rested doughs do  have a different taste. with the prominent taste that the wood oven imparts i personally do not taste big differences in longer aged dough.other than robertos dough which is very different with his 48 hour room rise.

  mangia pizza, i think it is about a third as much idy as fresh.that would be 1 gram per 1000 of flour.
 
  john,i think i would reduce my yeast a little to go to a 8 to 10 hour room proof.at the 8 hour mark the finished pizzas lost some volume.
 
 







 

[dellavecchia]

John/Larry/Chau, how would you compare the difference in flavor from an 18-24 hr IDY or CY dough?  Is the flavor gained during the extra hours minimal?  Do you even notice a difference in flavor?

Marlon

Marlon - I am not sure how much flavor is lost, per se, with a shorter room temp ferment using commercial yeast. It is the wheat-forward or sour comparison with sourdough. Both are good in my opinion. But you do also gain really good things with longer ferments.

John

[Jackie Tran]

For me, there is minimal flavor difference with extended fermentation when using IDY or ADY.  Flavor comes from salt and starter first, then toppings.  The difference is hardly perceptible. But I have also gotten similar textures with longer fermented doughs.  Getting the gluten strength just right becomes harder bc I have to also factor in enzyme activity.

As a test marlon, make 2 loaves of bread using commercial yeast. Make one in 4-6 hours versus a longer fermented dough or a cold fermented dough and see what differences you notice.   I will say that when I make a 4 hour dough using a big amount of CY, I do get a pronounced "yeasty" flavor in the crust.

[johnnydoubleu]

From what I have gleaned, these comparatively shorter "fermentation" times are the norm in Naples (and are consistent with the VPN training offered at A Mano in the US), not the exception. That anyone wonders if it works is flat out silly -- retarding/cold fermenting is ELECTIVE (and done if the dough is not going to be used right away). I've made very good Neapolitan "emergency dough" (due to a coworkers error, extra dough had to be made) for a very successful NYC pizza place and the truth is it performed every bit as well as our (far) older dough and customers had absolutely no idea.

[Mangia Pizza]

Nice job Larry.  I have posted similar results.  My best textured NP pie was made in 4 hrs using caputo and IDY.  No one believed me when I posted that despite posting the crumb shots.  Congrats, beautiful pies.

Do you have a link to that thread of yours?  I would be interested in your technique also....

[Jackie Tran]

Do you have a link to that thread of yours?  I would be interested in your technique also....

MP, I didn't start a thread or discuss the techniques involved.    I did make a post here ....

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17003.msg169879.html#msg169879

In Jordans thread.   IIRC, it was a high hydration dough, highly yeasted, and a very hot oven.  You can see that I burned the bottom of the pie in the video.  That was before I learned about cooking a pizza off the floor. 

[johnnydoubleu]

Check out this timeline and workflow for Neapolitan:
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/napoletana_pizza_dough.htm

I've done it -- it makes superb dough.

[Mangia Pizza]

MP, I didn't start a thread or discuss the techniques involved.    I did make a post here ....

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17003.msg169879.html#msg169879

In Jordans thread.   IIRC, it was a high hydration dough, highly yeasted, and a very hot oven.  You can see that I burned the bottom of the pie in the video.  That was before I learned about cooking a pizza off the floor. 

Thanks.....

[Mangia Pizza]

Check out this timeline and workflow for Neapolitan:
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/napoletana_pizza_dough.htm

I've done it -- it makes superb dough.

Grazie....

[pizza dr]

Thanks for the original post Larry!

I woke up yesterday morning and wanted some pizza... saw your post and decided to give it a try.  Worked great. Very Tender and tasted great.  I used .15% ADY but otherwise the same as yours above.

Scot

[thezaman]

scot, glad i could help,great looking pie.

[Pappy]

One of the more interesting revelations I took away from my reading of Good Bread is Back, Steven Kaplan's survey of the French, particularly Parisian, artisanal bread revival, is that 3-6 hours of room temp bulk ferment is very much the norm.  There are, of course, many variations on the theme, but the 3-6 hour bulk "pointage", as the French call it, is the central building block of flavor, particularly in baguettes.  Even Philippe Gosselin, creator, according to Reinhart, of Pain a l'Ancienne method, the 24 hour cold autolyse, adds a three hour room temp pointage for his stunning baguettes.  Calvel, the spiritual father of the French bread revival, also prefers a bulk rise in this range, the same one used by the Naples pizzaiolo, and by the great American pioneers in New York and New Haven.

I have settled into a 1% IDY, 4-6 hour rise for my NY style pizzas with great success (I also use bromated flour, thanks to the sterling advice of Scott123).  Even if I use an overnight cold ferment, I use the same amount of yeast and follow with a counter rise of 3-4 hours.  I get great flavor, great texture, and great oven spring.  My only sticking point now is bake time; I have yet to invest in the equipment that will get me down to 4-4 1/2 minutes.

Larry's pizza looks delicious, and I am not surprised.  
    

[thezaman]

 the french have a flour group that markets their baguettes similar to how vpn pizza is marketed.http://www.retrodor.com/en/index.php/retrodor-the-brand/from-flour-to-baguette     i think it is a one day process

[dellavecchia]

Larry - Your pizzas inspired me to do an 8 hour VPN dough, .12% IDY, 2.8% salt, 60%. Very tasty, and light.

John