Author Topic: Is short cold fermentation a waste?  (Read 1218 times)

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Offline mkevenson

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Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« on: October 01, 2012, 08:24:35 PM »
I am currently resting my dough on the counter after a 7 hr cold ferment. I just read in another thread that anything less than a 12 hr cold ferment is unproductive.
My reasoning for the fridge time is that without it my dough would have doubled in about 2 hrs and I wanted to make the dough this am and bake for dinner.
I am now thinking that instead of the cold I could have reduced the yeast.
I wonder which method would be best or does it matter?

My recipe formula:

50/50 Caputo 00 & BF
60%hydration
2.3% ADY
1.5% Diamond Crystal Kosher salt
6% EVOO

0.1 desired thickness factor
1.5% bowl residue

1/13" pie

Dough ball was 381g
76 degrees
Minimal hand mixing and hand kneading, balled and in the fridge in an aluminum proofing container with lid.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles


Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 08:52:24 PM »

I wonder which method would be best or does it matter?

My recipe formula:

50/50 Caputo 00 & BF
60%hydration
2.3% ADY
1.5% Diamond Crystal Kosher salt
6% EVOO

0.1 desired thickness factor
1.5% bowl residue

1/13" pie

Dough ball was 381g
76 degrees
Minimal hand mixing and hand kneading, balled and in the fridge in an aluminum proofing container with lid.

Mark
I think it makes a difference and with such a short time I believe you are on the right track with scaling yeast back and jus leaving on counter for whole duration...why so much oil Mark?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 09:17:45 PM »
..why so much oil Mark?

Bob, well...... I am still new enough at this that I try what has worked in the past and what I think might work based on what I read.

I have a formula on which I wrote " BEST DOUGH YET"
It had 6% oil, albeit I used P'nut, based on something I read. Maybe I should loose my glasses.

I have also seen oil %s as high as 11% in a NY style, or was it Chicago?

I have been using KABF and the dough has been a bit tough, the oil I read might help.
This dough is from a mix of flour I made before I started with the KABF. I had been using Caputo 100%, until I read that it was best suited for higher heat than I could generate. I mixed it 50/50 with another BF and used it for both pasta dough and pizza a while back. I labeled the flour container " good for pizza and pasta".

Ah, life goes on.

Evening.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 10:27:13 PM »
Bob, well...... I am still new enough at this that I try what has worked in the past and what I think might work based on what I read.


I have also seen oil %s as high as 11% in a NY style, or was it Chicago?

I have been using KABF and the dough has been a bit tough, the oil I read might help.



Mark
Great that you experiment from what you learned..."new enough"or not, that is what we all do.  ;)

Yes, Chicago DD can go real high with oil%...NY is typically 1-2 %

KABF can work(sorta) just be careful with your mixing/kneading....4-5 min tops and it won't be so tough.

Sounds like you are catching on quickly, jus remember to not make many changes at once...that way you better note what is taking place... ;)
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 11:39:32 PM »
Thanks,Bob. It is help like you give that gets me further down the road. I have learned from my time in the comp BBQ world to keep pretty good notes and read them.
Pie tonight turned out pretty good. Will FU with pics and report next couple days, between packing for a 3 wk vacation.

Mark
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 12:39:25 AM by mkevenson »
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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 11:51:49 PM »
Thanks,Bob. It is help like you give that gets me further down the road. I have learned from my time in the comp BBQ world to keep pretty good notes and read them.
Pie tonight turned out pretty good. Will FU with picks and report next couple days, between packing for a 3 wk vacation.

Mark
I've seen your work on other threads and think your ambition is leading you to good results. Hope you have a great vacation and are able to squeeze in a pic or two of your travels...you know we like our pics!  ;D
Have fun.....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 05:31:56 AM »
Mark - Your 7 hours in the fridge is called "retarding". You correctly used the technique for it's purpose - holding the dough at a lower temp to prevent over-proofing for a later bake. Some people build that into the dough workflow to suit a baking time.

John

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 09:40:56 AM »
Mark,

I believe that you may have seen the 12-hour minimum for a cold fermented dough from something that Tom Lehmann posted on the forum or wrote in an article somewhere. For example, you will see that 12-hour minimum in Tom's NY style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php. Your recipe is somewhat different than Tom's recipe in that you call for a lot more oil. For other types of recipes and styles of dough, the minimum period of cold fermentation can vary quite widely. So, the 12-hour number is not a universal rule.

Ideally, the way you want to develop a dough formulation is to first determine the type of fermentation you want to use (e.g., room temperature fermentation or cold fermentation, or possibly a combination of both), then determine when you want to use the dough to make a pizza, and, lastly, based on the prevailing temperatures to which the dough will be subjected to during fermentation, decide on how much yeast to use. How to do this largely comes from experience.

What you did seems proper from an instinctive standpoint. However, one of the drawbacks as I see it is that your recipe calls for a lot of yeast (ADY). From the information you provided, I estimate that you used about 1 3/8 teaspoons of ADY. That is a lot for a dough ball that weighs only 13.45 ounces (381 grams). Where the problem arises in this case is that when you put the dough in the refrigerator and it starts to cool down, yeast fermentation slows dramatically. So, the yeast sort of just sits there. When you eventually make the pizza, you might get more a flavor of the yeast than the byproducts of fermentation that contributes to crust flavor. Some people don't mind the taste of yeast, and some even prefer it, but many people prefer the crust flavors that come from long periods of fermentation. I suspect also that ADY may have a more pronounced flavor than say, IDY, because ADY contains far more dead yeast cells that may impart a distinctive flavor component of its own. However, I have never tested this thesis.

Another potential problem with short fermentation times is that there is not ample time to have the enzymes convert starch to natural sugars to be used not only to feed the yeast but also to contribute to crust coloration. So, it is generally advisable to add some sugar to the dough to begin with. It takes a fair amount of time to break down that sugar into simple sugars to be used by the yeast and to provide crust coloration through the Maillard reactions (which work with only simple sugars) but you should get some color because of caramelization of the sugar.

Peter

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 11:39:40 AM »
Peter, et al. Thank you for your observations and explanation. Who wooda thunk that making a pizza dough was so ..........
I will reserve my critique of the pizza from yesterday until I can post some pics, just to say that I am continuing to learn and striving for consistency.
Until then.


Mark

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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 09:55:55 PM »
So I did cook a pizza using a short cold ferment. Or as John pointed out, "retarding".

The Details:
1 dough ball 13" thickness 0.1
Flour 100% 224.94g (mix of Caputo 00 and bread flour)
water 60%  134.96g (reg tap)
ADY 2.3%    5.17g
salt  1.5%    3.37g Diamond Crystal Kosher
oil    6%       13.5g  EVOO
total 169.8%   381.94g

Dough ball was hand mixed until flour incorporated water, hand kneaded until ball was smooth and bounced back from light finger poke.
ADY was proofed in a small amount of the water heated to 108 degrees.

Dough ball was 76 degrees after kneading

dough in fridge 7 hrs in aluminum proofing pan with lid.

I formed the skin to 13 inches by finger pad pressure on outer edge and small circular stretching with finger pads. The dough developed a few holes and was way too thin and fragile to pick up. I attempted to patch holes but one can be seen on underside pic.
For some reason when using over 57% hydration my skins are hard to lift, certainly can't slap or throw, not that I could any way.

So from what I have learned in this thread I should have stuck with a room ferment and decreased the yeast amount. Lower the oil content to ? The risen edge of the cooked dough had the texture of a biscuit. The flat part of the cooked skin was thin and slightly ridged, not floppy but with a minor bend to the center or pointed end of the piece. I liked that aspect.

As you can see from the pics the dough was uneven on the bottom, probably due to the fact that I could not turn over while forming and my attempt to seal the holes.

The sauce was EVOO, with fresh garlic, garden oregano, and basil buds. Heated and let stand till cool.
Virginia smoked pepperoni and black olives halved. Trader Joe's whole mild low moisture mozzarella.

Oven and pizza stone were pre heated for over an hour, stone 2 slots below the broiler. broiler was turned on as I was dressing the pizza and then turned to bake for 3 min and back top broil for 4 min. Stone temp was 600 upon launch and then down to 560 for remainder of cook. total bake time 7 minutes. I increased the bake time to get a color on the crust. Probably would have been better to add sugar and reduce bake time as the meat burned a bit.

I can not explain the yellow coloring of the pics except to say my camera settings were off. It really wasn't yellow in the kitchen.
Overall not a very good looking pizza compared to others I have been doing. Ya Sure!

Mark



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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 10:45:02 PM »
Mark, loose that EVOO and the caputo flour. Decrease your yeast by half and mix for a good 6 min or so...try an overnight frig. Your gluten hasn't developed and that's why it's tearing an unmanageable.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 10:47:00 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is short cold fermentation a waste?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 11:23:18 AM »
Thanks, Bob. My usual routine is 2-3 days in fridge, This was a same a day desire. So I guess I will loose the fridge also for a same day "emergency" dough. The Caputo mix has already been relegated to a non-pizza container, I will decrease or loose the oil and cut the ADY %. I wonder how much yeast I will need for one pie and a 6-8 hr room temp rise? I know it all depends on the room temp, which I generally do not control, letting nature have its way, especially this time of year. In winter months maybe low 70s, in fact probably same year round, I will check.
Leaving for France and Italy tomorrow, so the pizza course at home will have to wait. On my return however I will get to play with my new pizza oven. OH MY ;D

Mark
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