Author Topic: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?  (Read 1071 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2013, 06:41:13 PM »
Here is a shot of my last batch from over the weekend.  I used cold veggie oil after I saw McDonalds ingredients.  These were too dry and dense for my taste.

I don't think you can make a good biscuit with oil.

If the oil in McD biscuits is not a solid, it's spray dried. I'm 99.9999% confident it's not a liquid at room temp.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2013, 06:44:24 PM »
I don't think you can make a good biscuit with oil.

If the oil in McD biscuits is not a solid, it's spray dried. I'm 99.9999% confident it's not a liquid at room temp.

I'm certain you are right.  I'll use shortening here on out.  Any idea on the best bake temp and do you brush anything on or before?
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2013, 06:46:37 PM »
I use straight buttermilk, but I've seen it done with a bit of water too. I have no guess on the hydration. Buttermilk has a lot of solids in it. I've never used cold shortening.

You might like a mix. The Pioneer Biscuit mix I used to sell made very good biscuits.

Do they taste better than Grands?  I cannot stand those.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2013, 06:47:45 PM »
I'm certain you are right.  I'll use shortening here on out.  Any idea on the best bake temp and do you brush anything on or before?

No less than 450. I've gone as high as 500. It should take 10-12 minutes. Don't brush on anything before. Butter after if you like.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2013, 06:49:24 PM »
Do they taste better than Grands?  I cannot stand those.

No. Nothing like that. I can't stand canned biscuits unless you fry them and roll in cinnamon sugar.

It's a mix - I'd imagine it's similar to what McD uses. The VAST majority of restaurants that serve biscuits made in house use a mix.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2013, 08:13:15 PM »
I have looked at McDonalds ingredients before but I am wondering if vegetable oil is considered shortening or just veggie oil?
Nate,

Oils and shortenings are two different but related products. Oils are in liquid form. Shortenings are created by fully or partially hydrogenating oils. That is what makes them solid. The problem with hydrogenating oils is that the hydrogenation produces Trans Fats. Trans Fats do not exist with oils in liquid form. As you know, Trans Fats are the current villains in health circles. Previously, it was Saturated Fats. So, producers of products with fully or partially hydrogenated fats have been working assiduously for several years to reduce the Trans Fats in such products, even if the Saturated Fats increase. For example, in 2007, Crisco took steps to reduce Trans Fats of the original Crisco shortening to zero per serving. The new Crisco also has hydrogenated fats but are lower in Trans Fat than their earlier shortening products. They can't completely get away from hydrogenation because the end product would not be solid. So, when you see palm oil or palm kernel oils, it is usually to get the Trans Fat numbers down. Most of the soft margarine products and liquid margarine products that you see on the market today are similarly formulated to meet the health concerns of regulators and others who are concerned about the consumption of fats by consumers, and especially Trans Fats. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if margarine, which by law must contain at least 80% oil, ultimately disappears from supermarket shelves or are minimized. They are hydrogenated and out of favor. Somewhat perversely, a lot of the margarine substitutes do not work as well in recipes as margarine or butter, so butter has become a beneficiary of the trend toward margarine substitutes.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2013, 08:27:39 PM »
If the oil in McD biscuits is not a solid, it's spray dried. I'm 99.9999% confident it's not a liquid at room temp.

Craig,

I believe you are correct. Some time ago, when I was researching Godfather's Pizza, I came across a document, at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, that mentioned the use of spray dried shortening in a pre-mix for the Godfather's Original & Golden Crust.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2013, 10:10:21 PM »
Nate,

Oils and shortenings are two different but related products. Oils are in liquid form. Shortenings are created by fully or partially hydrogenating oils. That is what makes them solid. The problem with hydrogenating oils is that the hydrogenation produces Trans Fats. Trans Fats do not exist with oils in liquid form. As you know, Trans Fats are the current villains in health circles. Previously, it was Saturated Fats. So, producers of products with fully or partially hydrogenated fats have been working assiduously for several years to reduce the Trans Fats in such products, even if the Saturated Fats increase. For example, in 2007, Crisco took steps to reduce Trans Fats of the original Crisco shortening to zero per serving. The new Crisco also has hydrogenated fats but are lower in Trans Fat than their earlier shortening products. They can't completely get away from hydrogenation because the end product would not be solid. So, when you see palm oil or palm kernel oils, it is usually to get the Trans Fat numbers down. Most of the soft margarine products and liquid margarine products that you see on the market today are similarly formulated to meet the health concerns of regulators and others who are concerned about the consumption of fats by consumers, and especially Trans Fats. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if margarine, which by law must contain at least 80% oil, ultimately disappears from supermarket shelves or are minimized. They are hydrogenated and out of favor. Somewhat perversely, a lot of the margarine substitutes do not work as well in recipes as margarine or butter, so butter has become a beneficiary of the trend toward margarine substitutes.

Peter

I'll be pissed if they take my country crock away from me :(
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline texmex

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2013, 08:25:40 AM »
I've seen a few grannies on YouTube with their 100 year old bowls making them exactly how you stated.  I have a feeling I haven't been using enough hydration to get them nice and moist.

Nate

Nate, no matter how many times I attempted to replicate Grandma Nell's biscuits mine always ended up like those McDonald's biscuits.   :(   For me and my family that was a huge disappointment although they were quite delicious.  She would bake hers on the lowest rack in the oven...and we had to split and butter all the biscuits while they were still hot.  If we had any leftover the halves would be grilled on a comal in the morning and spread with preserves. 

Now I'm inclined to try it again having learned what I know about higher hydration from pizzamaking.com.  I recall that butter flavored crisco  :o fell into the recipe when that product came out in the 70's? 
Reesa

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2013, 09:36:34 AM »
I'll be pissed if they take my country crock away from me :(

Nate,

I don't know which Country Crock product you are using, but I do not believe that there is a classic margarine product (around 80% oil) in the Country Crock lineup: http://www.countrycrock.com/product. The same thing is happening with the old standby margarine products like Parkay, Blue Bonnet, Imperial, Fleischmann's, etc. They have all been reformulated. And to make matters worse for consumers who want information on those products, you will rarely find the ingredients lists at the websites of the companies that produce those products. You will usually find the Nutrition Facts but consumers are referred to the ingredients lists that are on the packages themselves. You will often find "stick" products on the supermarket shelves, which some might think are the classic margarine products, but, like the Country Crock stick product, they contain less than 80% oil. About the only true margarine products that you are likely to find on the supermarket shelves these days are house brands of margarine. For example, Wal-Mart sells a Great Value margarine that is a true margarine. But, at less than a dollar for a pound, they are not going to promote that product when there are far more expensive offerings. You won't even find it on their website.

BTW, there is a good reason why margarine contains 80% oil. The rest of the product is mostly water, and the amount of that water is about the same as for a comparable amount of butter. That allows consumers and bakers to use margarine in recipes that call for butter. Unfortunately, the newer margarine-like products, like margarine "spreads", "light" or "soft" or liquid margarine-like products often are not good replacements in recipes calling for margarine or butter. In fact, the instructions for some recipes will often say not to use those other products. It looks like McDonald's is reformulating their biscuit products to avoid use of margarine and its perceived evils, no doubt due to pressure from the government and other critics. This morning, I came across an interesting (and amusing) article on the above matters, at http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/116495/just-say-no-to-margarine. I have been studying the ingredients for margarine and replacement products for a couple of years, as well as looking at dozens (maybe even over a hundred) margarine and replacement products in supermarkets, and the abovereferenced article reflects and is consistent with what I have learned over that time.

I think that Craig is on the mark about using butter as the fat for biscuits, although it might not behave like the fats/oils that McDonald's is using. Lard would also be a good choice. Like butter, lard is on the comeback trail.

Peter


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 04:33:53 PM »
I've made a few thousand.....  When cutting, do not twist the cutter - this is critical. Push straight down only.

Ok, I will nibble. Why not push and turn the cutter, how could that seal the edges any worse that a straight push and cut?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2013, 05:02:48 PM »
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 05:11:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2013, 07:35:18 PM »
This is what the edge on my cutter looks like.


Craig,


Where did you get this cutter?


Thanks.

Offline adm

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2013, 05:22:23 PM »
I'll be pissed if they take my country crock away from me :(


I'd be quite happy if margarine was banned worldwide. It's the devil's work.

What's wrong with good old fashioned butter? Preferably full cream, and even more preferablier, salted.

One thing that always pisses me off when I visit the US is the fluffy, whipped and sweetened "butter" I often get given. What's up with that? Butter should be golden yellow, salty and rock hard at anything less than room temperature.

But I am interested in the biscuit question. The nearest we have in the UK is scones - which are more often the basis for sweet preserves rather than savoury. I do love biscuits, bacon and gravy though.... I think they are basically the same thing though.

Anyway - UK scone article below. It uses the same, simple flour, fat, milk recipe. Interestingly enough, it also echoes Craig's advise not to twist the cutter. I have no idea what difference this makes.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2010/apr/22/how-to-make-perfect-scones

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2013, 05:38:07 PM »
Interestingly enough, it also echoes Craig's advise not to twist the cutter. I have no idea what difference this makes.

I screws up the way they rise in the oven
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Grodyjodi

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Re: Any pro buttermilk biscuit makers here?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2013, 04:20:39 AM »
Hi,
How are your biscuit experiments coming along?
If you're still testing techniques here are a couple of things to try out:

1). Shirley Corriher's feather light and tender buttermilk biscuits (just google her, she's old school and started as biochemist) are a super wet dough that is scooped and dropped not formed and cut... The super hydration means tons of steam for the rise and supreme tenderness.
Drop buttermilk biscuits with An ice cream scoop into a bowl of dredging flour, gently knock off the excess and place right up against each other for that group lean others have mentioned that helps the rise.
2) if using butter, which is such a great flavor compared to shortening, cut it in 1/2 inch cubes first and freeze for an hour... Then pulse with your dry ingredients in a food processor just a few times so the pieces are peanut sized... In fact, put all your dry ingredients in the freezer too before pulsing, and then add your cold buttermilk straight from the fridge.  Form them in whatever way  and place in the freezer again for say 15 min prior to the bake to keep the butter bits cold until the last moment.

I don't know that these will compare to the McDonald's recipe, however.  I just know that Shirley Corriher is always on the money, and that to create layers between fat and flour the freezer is an underutilized tool.





 

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