Author Topic: Does anyone know this 00 flour?  (Read 1787 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« on: October 10, 2012, 08:43:53 PM »
Does anyone know anything about this 00 flour?
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 09:40:51 PM »
Let me guess.  The pizza fairy dropped you off a bag?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 09:51:49 PM »
Let me guess.  The pizza fairy dropped you off a bag?

No, but it may be readily available. I have not bought any yet. It isn't cheap.
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Offline scott123

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 04:17:36 AM »
Parma is Northern Italy and Naples, Southern.  I don't know the style of pizza they consume there, but Rome (Central Italy) is between the two cities, and Roman pizza is quite different from Neapolitan, so I think it's pretty safe to say that Northern Italian pizza (and the flour for it) is going to be a different animal entirely.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 06:34:22 AM »
Interesting find Craig. From the website (translated):

Flour made ​​from a blend of soft wheat, high-protein, designed for lovers of homemade pizza but good for the pizzeria. The particular protein structure allows the dough to produce mixtures with a long rise and a pizza fragrant, crisp, easy to digest and delicate in flavor. A product that is easy to use and unique, both for domestic and professional use.

Protein: 15% (much higher than Caputo)
Moisture content: 15,50% (higher than Caputo)
W:350 (much higher than Caputo)
P/L: 0,50 (similar to Caputo)
Absorbtion: 59% (higher than Caputo)

This is a perfect flour for pizza in teglia, in my opinion. It is meant for high hydrations and long fermentation periods. It is the same ash content as Caputo, but that is where the similarities end. Since they use a soft (probably spring) wheat at higher protein, it is the exact opposite of the wheat profile in Caputo 00.

This is a perfect example of why "00" does not correspond to a particular style of pizza, but is merely a reference to grind and ash content.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2012, 07:57:51 AM »
John,

For a flour made from a blend of soft wheat, 15% protein strikes me as being very high. In the U.S., even high-gluten flours, which are usually milled from hard red spring wheat, rarely get above about 14.2% +/- 0.2-0.3%. However, whole wheat flours can get to around 15%. Of course, one can add vital wheat gluten to a given flour to increase its protein content.

I suspect that the Italians are rating the protein content differently than we do in the U.S.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 09:07:37 AM »
Craig,

Is this the website for the kind of Molino Flour you are posting about?

http://www.molinobordignon.it/

http://www.molinobordignon.it/farina_pizza.asp

http://www.molinobordignon.it/linea_forno.asp

If it is the flour from the second link above, this is what it says about the flour in English.

Flour for Pizza

From grinding wheat into flour is obtained a yield of between 70 and 82%, with the remaining 18-30% consists of bran, middlings, granite, and bran for livestock use. The percentage of flour extracted from the bean depends not only on the type of grain, also by chemical and physical parameters set during the grinding process. The mills are now automated modern companies are leaders in the industry OCRIM (Italy) and Buhler (Switzerland).
The process of milling the wheat begins with the wetting of the grain, that if has a value W (the so-called "strength of the flour", see the rest of the entry) equal to or less than 300 is to bring the moisture of the grain to 15.5% for 24 hours, while if the W has a value greater than 300 to 16.5% for a maximum of 48 hours. Then the wheat is addressed in mills starting to strip the grain of the outside, which is deposited by means of pneumatic systems in silos. The end result is a flour with physical characteristics conform to the waiting process. Waste products such as bran, bran and middlings can be used for farming purposes if not treated according to the law, or for human purpose.
Flour derived from lower extractions (sifting 70-75%) come mainly from the central part of the grain and stand out to the naked eye for their purity and innocence, are denominated in Italy 00 flour. On the contrary, a flour with a high extraction rate (about 80%) will be less clear since it also contains the flour from the outer part of the grain (aleurone layer); in relation to ash content (mineral) can be referred to as flour type 0 , type 1 or type 2. When the percentage of extraction reaches 100% is obtained by the so-called whole wheat flour, a flour that is also including bran.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 09:15:57 AM by norma427 »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2012, 09:38:59 AM »
Thanks Norma. I don't think that was the flour. I think the data John posted was for the flour I asked about.

Craig
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 09:41:01 AM »
John,

For a flour made from a blend of soft wheat, 15% protein strikes me as being very high. In the U.S., even high-gluten flours, which are usually milled from hard red spring wheat, rarely get above about 14.2% +/- 0.2-0.3%. However, whole wheat flours can get to around 15%. Of course, one can add vital wheat gluten to a given flour to increase its protein content.

I suspect that the Italians are rating the protein content differently than we do in the U.S.

Peter

Peter - I think you are right, and in addition my initial statement about the variety might be wrong. I think it might be Hard Red Spring Wheat they are using, which could probably attain that protein count and was cultivated with a soft endosperm.

But I also agree with you that the classifications of protein content must be very different in Italy.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 09:52:41 AM »
Peter - I think you are right, and in addition my initial statement about the variety might be wrong. I think it might be Hard Red Spring Wheat they are using, which could probably attain that protein count and was cultivated with a soft endosperm.

John,

There is a Canadian flour milled from hard red spring wheat that is sometimes called Canadian Very Strong flour. I believe that is also called Manitoba and is reported to have a protein content of around 15%. My recollection in researching Italian flours is that the name Manitoba came up quite often. The W value you mentioned is also consistent with such a flour, with a characteristically long fermentation window. I believe that there are a few U.S. millers that have flours with a protein content of around 15% but they tend to be small regional millers, usually far North, like Montana.

Peter


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 09:53:51 AM »
But I also agree with you that the classifications of protein content must be very different in Italy.


But Caputo would calculate it the same way, wouldn't you think?

This spec sheet shows Caputo at 12.5%

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 10:00:20 AM »
But Caputo would calculate it the same way, wouldn't you think?


I agree.  The W number is what makes this one the most different I believe.
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 10:04:44 AM »
But Caputo would calculate it the same way, wouldn't you think?

This spec sheet shows Caputo at 12.5%

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf


Yes, but when you compare a 12.5 percent flour like KABF to Caputo, they are like night and day.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 10:14:34 AM »
But Caputo would calculate it the same way, wouldn't you think?

This spec sheet shows Caputo at 12.5%

http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf


Craig,

In rethinking this matter in greater detail, it is possible that you are right and that the 15% protein number is correct. If you look at page 5 of the King Arthur article on flour that I retrieved from the Wayback Machine archives, at http://web.archive.org/web/20060208023504/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour%20Guide.pdf, you will see that in Europe protein content is specified on a 0% or "dry matter" basis. If you do the conversion as noted on page 5, you should get a bit over 15% on a U.S. 14% moisture basis.

I also agree with John that if the flour in question is really a hard red spring wheat flour, its characteristics, even if the flour is unmalted, will be a lot different than a 00 flour, unless somehow the milling process used in Italy compensates for the differences. This is a matter that Marco has addressed previously on the forum. See, for example, Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25311/topicseen.html#msg25311.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 10:45:15 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 10:55:22 AM »
Yes, but when you compare a 12.5 percent flour like KABF to Caputo, they are like night and day.

John

I don't disagree, but does that mean the protein % is calculated differently, or the protein itself (or something else) is different?

CL
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 11:28:33 AM »
I don't disagree, but does that mean the protein % is calculated differently, or the protein itself (or something else) is different?

CL

I guess that is really the question, and I am not sure. I do know that Italy imports a great amount of North American flour to blend with their european varieties. So maybe the protein quality is different. I just don't know the right answer.

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 11:50:10 AM »
Craig - Any chance you would buy this flour and try it out with pizza in teglia? I am happy to split the bag with you.

John

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 12:13:13 PM »
Craig - Any chance you would buy this flour and try it out with pizza in teglia? I am happy to split the bag with you.

John

If you want to 1/3 the bag, I'm in.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 03:35:09 PM »
Sorry guys - it was a special order, and I already told them to send it back.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Does anyone know this 00 flour?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 05:06:51 PM »
Sorry guys - it was a special order, and I already told them to send it back.

To be clear, they were supposed to get me a couple bags of Caputo, and this is what showed up.
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