Author Topic: NY Style pizza (and naan)  (Read 5696 times)

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Offline Peter

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NY Style pizza (and naan)
« on: November 19, 2005, 05:41:49 AM »
I'd like to take the opportunity to show the results of my experiments with the Lehmann recipe for New York style pizza and the way this can be used to make an Indian naan.

I live in The Netherlands and I can only get supermarket flour over here so I tried Pete-zza's "entry level" recipe posted in the Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.200.html).

I use the following recipe to make two 11 inch pizza's (the maximum size for my oven)

350 gram flour (200 gram supermarket flour and 150 gram semolina)
210 gram water
10 gram of dried milk powder
6 gram sea salt
half a table spoon olive oil
tiny amount of IDY

I realize that the semolina is not an ingredient of a classic NY Style pizza but I like the distinct taste of it and I use it to compensate the quality of the supermarket flour (which is made of soft European flour). The dough is stored in the refrigerator for 24 hours and I make my pizza in a simple home oven with a pizza stone in it. The oven temperature is 250 degrees Celsius (about 500 degrees Fahrenheit), preheated for one hour at least and I use the broiler to generate extra heat when I bake the pizza. Baking time is 7-8 minutes.

The pictures show my pizza (with a topping of 4 different cheeses) and the bottom of the pizza. I'm not very good at shaping the pizza so it's not a nice circle.

I really like eating naan and I tried to apply the Lehmann method (slow fermentation) to make naans and I'm happy with the results.

I used the following ingredients:

500 gram flour (same mixture of semolina and supermarket flour)
1 egg
100 gram of thick Greek yogurt
about 150 gram water
10 gram sea salt
tiny amount of IDY
Nigella seeds for decoration
One teaspoon of ghee (clarified butter) for brushing the naan after the are baked in the oven.

I aim for 60% hydration and I mix the egg and the yogurt and add water until I have 300 grams of fluid. This should yield 4-6 naans, depending on the size.
The dough is stored in the refrigerator for 24 hours and baked in my oven like described above. The only difference is that I bake them slightly longer than my pizza (8-9 minutes) and I switch on the broiler for the last 2 minutes only.

The pictures show the shaped and decorated dough, the baked naans and the crumb/texture of the naan.

I hope it's allright to post something about making naan's in the pizza forum.

Peter Geraedts
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Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2005, 05:43:36 AM »
The pizza pictures
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Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2005, 05:45:30 AM »
The naan pictures
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Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2005, 05:46:06 AM »
And the naan crumb/texture.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2005, 02:53:35 PM »
Peter,

I'm glad to see that the Lehmann recipe as you adapted it worked out for you. I have on occasion played around with semolina to increase the protein content of a lower protein flour but found that I preferred the vital wheat gluten (VWG) version better. I see also that you used dried milk powder. That is a reasonable substitute for dried dairy whey but it has a lower level of lactose so you won't get quite the amount of crust browning that you will get using dried dairy whey. Bakers usually choose the dried dairy whey over dried milk powder because it is cheaper for them. If you can get VWG and dried dairy whey in the Hague, you might want to try using them in the Lehmann recipe you used to see if you get comparable results to what you achieved.

Judging from the looks of the crumb for your naan, I would say that you have successfully adapted the Lehmann dough recipe to the naan format.

Peter

Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2005, 04:20:03 AM »
Thanks for your reply Peter.

I'll try and hunt for the stuff you mentioned and perhaps I even found the Vital Wheat Gluten by accident! I visited a shop yesterday that sells "ciabattaflour" and bought a 2 kg bag to try it out. The ingredients are listed as "durum gries", "tarwegluten" and "enzymen" and the second ingredient might just be what Americans call vital wheat gluten ("tarwe" translates as wheat in English and gluten obviously means the same in English as in Dutch.) The first ingredient could be semolina, but the semolina I normally use is more coarse than this flour, the last ingredient translates as enzymes but it doesn't say what kind of enzymes so I'm not sure what they are and why they are added to the flour. I just wish manufacturers would be a bit more precise when listing their ingredients ::)

I don't know if there are other Dutch or Belgian posters on this forum. If so, it might be interesting to compare notes on local ingredients.

Regardless, I made two balls of dough and there's gonna be pizza tonight. I can't wait to see how they turn out!

Peter
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 12:37:25 PM by Peter »
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Offline scott r

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2005, 05:29:05 PM »
I am a huge fan of naan bread.  I used to always think about trying a modified naan recipe for pizza.  I was always looking for that soft supple melt in your mouth pizza dough recipe and never could get it right.  When I finally got a chance to try Neapolitan pizza I realized that this was crust I had always been looking for...... I knew it was out there somewhere!   

The other day I ordered some Indian food for lunch, and of course got some naan.  I ate all the bread and had a whole order of tiki massala left over.  When my wife got home from work famished she started freaking out that I had not made dinner, as I had promised. To be honest I forgot that I had offered (oops).  I pulled out the massala and told her that of course I didn't make dinner because I got her this Indian food earlier in the day.  She almost bought it until she started  looking agitated and yelling Where's the naan (it was very similar to the old Wendy's commercial).  I am pretty quick at thinking on my feet when my wife is about to get pissed, so I blurted out..... I know I know, I have decided to make my own fresh nan from scratch.  To my surprise my wife believed me and calmed down.  I have no idea where this sentence came from, it was out of my mouth before I even realized what I was saying.  I will do anything to buy a few minutes of peace.  Uh oh, now  what do I do???  I did have some leftover Neapolitan dough from yesterday.

Well, I had never tried anything like this before, I always thought that to make a decent naan I would wait until I could build my tandoor some day in the back yard (next to you know what).  I had even written down the brand of flour that my friends mother from India preferrs.  At this point I had a very hungry wife on my hands, so I had to make do with what I could.  What was the worst that could happen.   

I heated up a skillet on the stove to about medium high and buttered the pan.  I stretched  and dropped the cold dough from the fridge right into the pan.  I put a lid on the pan, waited a minute, opened it and flipped it, closing the lid again for about 30 sec.  To my surprise this bread looked really  convincing.  I thought for sure it would be a hard lump of gum, but I was wrong.  This turned out to be a tender flavorful and totally authentic looking and tasting Nan bread!!!!!!!!  Not only was I getting smiles and oohs and aahs from my wife, but she is now insisting that we can never order our naan from the restaraunt again.

Another day saved by Pizzamaking.com.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2005, 08:26:18 PM »
Scott,

What a great story, but I'm shocked  :o how you lie to your wife with such facility.  :)

Curious about the leftover dough you had in the fridge. Just plain old 64% hydrated Caputo 00?

I've made a passable naan in the brick oven using a recipe from Julia Child. Nothing special. I'd like to try your method since I also like naan.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Bill/SFNM


Offline scott r

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2005, 10:09:36 PM »
Bill, this recipe was slightly different than standard because I used oil.  Actually, come to think of it, it was pretty similar to the a16 copy cat.  It had 30g of olive oil and 60g of Ishica starter per 1L of water with 50g salt.  I also did a hand knead on this one and got it down closer to 60% hydration.  My typical scenario is to do about 12 hours of rise somewhere around 65 degrees before making dough balls. I then put whatever dough I won't be using that day into the fridge.  I think this dough was at day 3 from when I made the doughballs.

Next time I am going to do some garlic naan, my favorite.

This little experience has also made me want to try some more authentic naan recipes (with the yogurt etc.), but with a natural leaven and the caputo flour.  I am sure this bread had been made for a very long time with a natural leaven before commercial yeast came about.

This has also got me thinking more seriously about doing some griddle pizzas as a way to use my caputo doughs at my friends homes when they want me to do a pizza party.  I know that Pete-zza and others have been able to do it in their ovens, but every time I try to use Neapolitan dough in a normal 550 degree home oven it just turns out too dry, or not cooked enough even with olive oil and dairy whey.  I must admit I have only made three attempts at this.   

Lucky for me this skillet creation was perfect the first time, so although unconventional, I think I might have stumbled onto something fun.  Now I am thinking Indian topped pizzas like a mint chutney sauce with onions and chicken tikka on a grilled naan base. 

I have a vegan friend that comes over for pizza, and it is really tough coming up with interesting food for her.  She always ends up with a cheeseless red sauce pie.   I made a few thai pizza's at my last party with a coconut milk/gangala lime leaf reduction sauce with red peppers,  green beans,  and sesame oil marinated wood ear mushrooms for her.  Even the non vegans flipped out over this pizza and wolfed them down as fast as I could put them out.   A few people even said that they were their favorite pies of the night. 

I hope I haven't made anybody reading this sick!
I never thought I would make (or want to eat) things like this, but a great crust has turned out to be such a good base for anything.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2005, 10:54:05 PM »
Scott,

Please report back on your naan experiments. I have never made really good naan and would like to find out how. One of my better efforts involved adding sesame seeds to the dough. Your garlic naan sounds worth trying also. How do you incorporate the garlic?

Bill/SFNM


Offline scott r

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2005, 04:29:18 AM »
Bill, this was my first time trying naan, and I was really shocked at how similar my Neapolitan naan version was to naan at my favorite Indian restaurant. 

My guess is that it would take the garlic about the same amount of time to cook as the bread using my skillet method.  I would just throw some minced garlic into the pan right as the butter goes in.  In the two minutes or so it takes the dough to cook the garlic should mellow out enough, but not burn.

Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2005, 03:29:28 AM »
Nice to see there are more people experimenting with naans. Could you give some recipes please? I stumbled onto the one I posted above, but I doubt it's the definite naan recipe (if there's such a thing in the first place!)

I experimented with the "ciabattaflour" I bought, but that was a wast of money. It turned out to be semolina with some additives (my guess is that the enzymes mentioned in the ingredients are malt). There was no real difference in taste with the pizza I normally make and it had very fine blisters on the outside. According to the pizza-encyclopedia this indicates too much fermentation, perhaps I should have lessened the amount of yeast because of the "enzymes". Ah well.

I made some more pizza this weekend and I used less semolina this time (about 15% of the total amount of flour.) The second adjustment I made is that I started with a kind of poolish before I made the final dough and it had a positive effect on the pizza, especially on the crumb. I mixed 150 grams of semolina with the same amount of water, added a bit of IDY and let it develop for about 12 hours. I made twice the amount of dough I normally make, added the "poolish", divided it into 4 balls and stored those in the refrigerator for 48 hours. The pizza turned out really nice although I didn't heat the stone long enough, the bottom wasn't properly browned. See the pictures below.

Can you freeze pizzadough and when do you put it in the freezer? Do you let if develop in the fridge and freeze it afterwards or do you make the dough and freeze it immediately?

Peter Geraedts
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Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2005, 03:30:19 AM »
The bottom of the pizza and the crumb.

Peter Geraedts
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2005, 05:22:48 PM »
It's quite intersting to see how similar naan is to pizza. Here are a few recipes I found via the internet some time ago that may be of interest. I have not tried them myself.

Naan Indian Bread

4 T. clarified butter (ghee)
1 t. salt
1 t. sugar
2 c. all-purpose flour
2 T. yogurt
2 t. onion seeds (Nigella)
1 t. dried yeast
2/3 c. warm milk or water

Whisk the warm milk or water with the yeast and the sugar until the yeast is dissolved. Cover and let stand in a warm place for 10 minutes. Sift the flour and the salt 3 times into a large bowl.  Add the yeast mixture, one half of the clarified butter, and the yogurt. Mix into a soft dough and then knead on a floured surface for about 5 minutes or until the dough is smooth and elastic. Place the dough in a large oiled bowl, cover, and let stand in a warm place for 1 1/2 hours or until the dough is doubled in size. Punch down the dough and then knead for 5 minutes. Divide the dough into 6 pieces. Roll each piece out into an 8” round naan. Cover a baking tray with aluminum foil and grease the foil. Brush the naan with a little of the remaining clarified butter and sprinkle with some of the onion seeds. Bake the naan, one at a time, under the broiler for about 2 minutes on each side, or until puffed and just browned. The naan can also be cooked on a hot griddle on a stove.

Naan Indian Bread

1 t. dried active yeast
1/2 t. sugar
1/2 c. warm water (about 105-115 degrees F)
1 c. all-purpose flour, plus more as needed while kneading
1/2 t. salt
1/4 c. clarified butter (ghee) or vegetable oil, plus 1 teaspoon

In a glass measuring cup, combine the yeast and sugar. Add the water and stir well. Let rest until foamy, about 5 minutes. Sift together the flour and salt into a large bowl. Make a well in the center of the flour and pour the yeast mixture and the clarified butter (ghee) or vegetable oil into the center. Mix together with your fingers until a smooth dough forms, working in a small amount of additional flour as needed. Knead for 3 minutes. Oil a small bowl with the remaining butter (ghee) or oil. Place the dough into the bowl, turning to coat, and let rest until doubled in size, about 1 hour.

Preheat the oven to 400 degrees F.

Divide the dough into 6 pieces and gently roll into 6 circles on a lightly floured surface. Bake on a baking stone, or a lightly greased baking sheet, until just golden brown and puffed, about 12 minutes.
Serve immediately.

(Note: Often the unbaked naan are docked with a special docking tool or with the use of a fork to make holes in the naan so that they don’t balloon up during baking.  Also, a small amount of water can be put in the middle of the unbaked naan and sesame, caraway, Nigella or other seeds or other ingredients, like chopped scallions, are put in the wet area so that the toppings stick to the naan.)

“Snowshoe” Naan Indian Bread

2 1/2 c. warm water (around 105-115 degrees F)
1 t. dry yeast
1 1/2 c. whole-wheat flour
4 to 5 c. unbleached hard white or all-purpose flour
1 T. salt
1 t. Nigella (black onion seed)
 
Place the water in a large bread bowl, and add the yeast and stir. Add the whole-wheat flour and 1 cup of the white flour.  tir well and then stir 100 times in the same direction to develop the gluten (one minute). Let the sponge stand for 1/2 hour to 3 hours, covered. Sprinkle the salt over the sponge, then add another cup flour and stir. Continue adding flour and stirring until you can stir no longer. Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface and knead thoroughly, about 10 minutes, until the dough is smooth and easy to handle. Clean out the bowl, oil lightly, and return the dough to the bowl. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise in a convenient place for 2 to 3 hours.  hen the dough has more than doubled in volume, push down gently and turn out onto a lightly floured surface. Divide the dough into 8 equal pieces and shape each into a flat oval shape, approximately 4” wide by 8” long. Leave these flat disks out on the work surface and cover with plastic wrap to let rise for approximately 20 minutes.

Place quarry tiles or a large baking stone on a rack in the lower third of the oven, leaving a 1” space between the tiles and the oven wall to allow air to circulate.  Preheat the oven to 450 degrees F. Five minutes after the oven has preheated, begin shaping the first bread. Place a small bowl full of cold water by the edge of the work surface. Using your fingertips, first dip them in the water and then, beginning at one end of the disk of dough, make tightly spaced indentations all over the surface of the dough, so that it looks pitted, though not pierced through. Now stretch the dough gently into a long oval strip by draping it over both hands and pulling them apart gently. The dough should stretch and give, and after several tries will extend to make a long oval about 12” long with attractive stretch marks along it from the stretched indentations (hence, the name "snowshoe" bread).

Place the dough back on the work surface, sprinkle with a pinch (less than 1/8 teaspoon) of black onion seeds (Nigella) and, using both hands, place the bread directly on the heated tiles or stone. While the bread bakes, begin to shape the next bread. The cooking time for each bread is approximately 4 minutes. You will soon develop a rhythm so that you can bake 2 breads side by side across your oven, one going in when the other is half done. When done, the breads will have golden patches on top and a crusty browned bottom surface. To keep the breads warm and soft, wrap them in a cotton cloth 5 minutes after they come out of the oven.  Serve warm or at room temperature.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2005, 05:52:18 PM »
Peter,

In your earlier post, you asked about whether pizza dough can be frozen. The answer is yes. When you freeze it seems to be a matter of opinion. Some people make the dough, let it rise and then freeze it. Others make the dough, refrigerate it, and then freeze it. Sometimes freezing is an afterthought--when someone has leftover dough but not the time to make a pizza out of it just then. Tom Lehmann recommends making the dough and then freezing it soon thereafter without any rise or cold fermentation. I have tried that approach a few times. In case you are interested, the last time I did it I reported on the results (along with the theory) at Reply #272, page 14, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.260.html.

Peter

Offline Peter

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2005, 01:31:14 PM »
Thanks for the link Peter, I'll give freezing the dough a try (I'm not sure about the honey though).

The naan recipe I posted above is adapted from this recipe:

Ingredients
    1/2 kg Maida ( all purpose flour)
   1/2 tea spoon soda/ baking powder
   1/2 cup Curd
   1/4 spoon sugar
   1 no. Egg
   1 cup Milk
   2 tsp. Onion seeds
   3 tsp. Oil
   Salt According to taste
Method
1. Sieve flour with baking powder and salt. Mix sugar, egg, milk and water. Knead it well into a soft dough. Apply a little oil and cover it with a wet cloth for two hour. It will come up very nice.
2. Now make equal sized balls apply a little oil and put onion seeds on top. Roll it into a round shape.
3. Stretch it from one side to give a triangular shape.
4. Now put it on a preheated Tandoor wall or cook in a preheated oven (250 degrees Celsius) by placing it on a greased tray.
5. Remove when it is crisp and golden brown on both sides. Serve hot topped with butter.

You can find it here: http://www.ruchiskitchen.com/recipe.htm, click breads on the left side and then choose naan.

I ditched the sugar and the milk and replaced the soda/baking powder with yeast. The egg and the curd/yogurt give the naan a really soft texture. I tried it with the milk as well, but the naan turns out to "heavy" for my taste.

Next steps as far as pizza is concerned are: finding vital wheat gluten and wheypowder and adjusting the recipe for kneading in a BBM. While browsing the "Lehmann thread" for the freezing of dough I noticed you posted some instructions for kneading in a BBM as well: you take your pizza VERY seriously and it's contagious!

Peter Geraedts

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2005, 11:36:38 AM »
Today I saw a Q&A on naan at the PMQ.com Think Tank, at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/25458, and as also set forth below:

Tom,
: Now that you've fixed my pizza I am wondering
: if you know how to make the Indian bread
: Naan. Do you know a recipe in bakers %. Are
: there any special ovens required or can it
: be cooked in a deck oven? Happy holidays to
: you and yours.

: Thanks, Steve
Steve;
You bet!
100% flour; 1% salt; 50% water; 6% shortening; (up to 25% plain yogurt is optional) you will need to reduce the water to something close to 35% if you opt to add the yogurt. Traditionally, the bread is shaped into ovals and baked at 315C/600F for about 2-minutes. The recommended procedure is to mix the dough and divide into pieces, form into balls, and allow to ferment for about 2 hours (cover with a wet cloth to prevent drying) the dough is then ready to be rolled/sheeted to shape and immediately baked.
To learn more about these types of breads, an excellent resource is Flat Bread Technology by Jalal Qarooni (Thomson Publishing at <www.thomson.com>.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Peter



Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2005, 06:36:28 PM »
No yeast?

Bill/SFNM

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2005, 10:11:37 AM »
What can I say? Our members are just so much on the ball. This time, it was Bill/SFNM, who correctly noted the omission of the yeast in Tom L.'s naan recipe. It is 1% compressed yeast. See http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/25488.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: NY Style pizza (and naan)
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2005, 11:10:02 AM »
Pete,

So 1% compressed yeast equates to what % IDY? I didn't find this is in the glossary. Would be a useful addition.

Thanks.

Bill/SFNM