Author Topic: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand  (Read 10176 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ev

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1826
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 03:37:00 PM »
I pay 59 locally.  >:(  Too high but it's the only source I have. :'(


Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
  • Location: MA
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 05:04:06 PM »
Progression of bulk fermentation a few hours before balling.....

One of the mixes looks more runny.....

Paolo

scott123

  • Guest
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2012, 05:25:14 PM »
Okay, final answer  ;D

RD on the left.

My reasoning is that the RD has a lower falling number. Cheaper flours tend to be made from inferior wheat that wasn't harvested as conscientiously and thus has moved further along the sprouting process and has higher enzyme activity. This would explain the tighter appearance before and the slacker appearance now- the higher enzyme activity is driving faster fermentation.

Offline pizzaboyfan

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 485
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2012, 05:42:13 PM »
55 # Caputo is 39.95 from PennMac
 + shipping from Pittsburgh, Pa

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
  • Location: MA
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 06:09:33 PM »
This is generating good conversations regarding the capability of different flours. Before balling tonight I will disclose which side the caputo resides.
The other thoughts?
Paolo

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23590
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2012, 06:12:26 PM »
Paolo,

Can you describe the characteristics of the bulk dough before you ball it? For example, is it light and airy or firm to the touch, etc. Can you estimate the volume of expansion?

Thanks.

Peter

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3788
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2012, 06:16:58 PM »
I have posted the results of this Battle or at least results for the RD Supremo Italiano here on the forum previously back in 2011so I will keep my mouth shut . :-X This was pre Flirting with Fire  and this was my very first gig getting paid to make pizza ! http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13198.0.html 
Back to the flour. its Amazing how good the RD  is, is all I will say. If its all I had access to I would have no problem using it all the time !
 The  Difference in price between the 2 flours at consumer level Rest. Depot and Cash and Carry is around $6 for 55lbs Rest Depot is $28 and caputo is $34 Friday only  at E&S foods.
 I get Caputo  for$30 bucks a sack from a great guy who ownes a super Neapolitan joint here in Ridgewood NJ. "consistency is king"
John

John
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 06:28:46 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12515
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2012, 07:29:21 PM »
Okay, final answer  ;D

RD on the left.

My reasoning is that the RD has a lower falling number. Cheaper flours tend to be made from inferior wheat that wasn't harvested as conscientiously and thus has moved further along the sprouting process and has higher enzyme activity. This would explain the tighter appearance before and the slacker appearance now- the higher enzyme activity is driving faster fermentation.
I've decided I'll move all my chips over to the explanation Scott has given. The expedited fermentation process he proposes for the "cheaper" cut of wheat, stemming from it's inherent increased enzyme activity just sounds correct to me.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
  • Location: MA
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2012, 11:51:12 PM »
Paolo,

Can you describe the characteristics of the bulk dough before you ball it? For example, is it light and airy or firm to the touch, etc. Can you estimate the volume of expansion?

Thanks.

Peter

The dough on the left was light, airy and seemed much wetter than the one on the right.  The one on the right felt more firm and dry, in fact after balling them the left dough balls widened, (pancake effect) while the right ones stayed tighter..... Volume of expansion?  Sorry, I am not that sophisticated......

Without any further wait......

The dough on the left  of the pictures was RD brand, the right was Caputo.......  Congrats to those who answered correctly.....

Next we'll see how they perform in the oven......
Paolo


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23590
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2012, 07:37:11 AM »
Paolo,

Thank you for the description of the two doughs. Now the fun part begins. I'd like to see if the dough balls make it through another 24 hours of room temperature fermentation at 65 degrees F. If you see that the dough balls ferment too fast and want to flatten out too much, you might want to use the refrigerator to slow down the fermentation process.

Peter

scott123

  • Guest
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2012, 09:36:43 AM »
If my theory about enzyme activity is correct, the RD balls should bake up with a slightly more knobby/toothy appearance.

Offline pizzaneer

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1476
  • Location: Nirvana
  • Pizza and zen more pizza
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2012, 10:15:37 AM »
If my theory about enzyme activity is correct, the RD balls should bake up with a slightly more knobby/toothy appearance.

As well as being (slightly) harder to stretch without tearing.  It's not AP after all.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23590
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2012, 11:47:44 AM »
If my theory about enzyme activity is correct, the RD balls should bake up with a slightly more knobby/toothy appearance.

scott123,

Can you point me to a photo that shows what a pizza with a knobby/toothy appearance looks like?

Peter

scott123

  • Guest
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2012, 12:23:49 PM »
Peter, this isn't the perfect example, but you can see plenty of knobbiness in Chau's early pies:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10471.msg92703.html#msg92703

The one characteristic of toothiness that's not quite so pronounced in these pictures is the translucent quality you'll sometimes see on the bumps from the thinning gluten.

I'm not necessarily considering this a fault, btw.  Some might describe this knobby quality as having more character.  John Conklin makes some beautiful pies where the gluten is thinning in parts.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23590
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2012, 12:32:56 PM »
scott123,

Thanks. That helps.

What characteristics of the dough do you see that leads to the knobbiness conclusion you mentioned? Is it the breakdown of the gluten matrix, or maybe overfermentation of the dough, or maybe something else?

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7230
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2012, 12:58:25 PM »
Scott, seeing that picture brought back some memories.  One of our first exchanges on the forum.  As soon as I saw the picture, I instantly thought the vast amounts of bubbling you see in the dough is from how I develop the gluten with stretch and folds trapping air.  I read down a few post and I noted that I gave the same reason then. 

This maybe too late or may derail the experiment,  but if you have enough dough to make 2-3 pies with each batch.  You may consider reballing one or two of the RD balls.  It will balance out that enzyme activity Scott is talking about and will give you a closer result to the caputo ball.  But don't over do it on the reball.  And I would do it now, the further away from bake time the better.  Just a few folds to reball.  Take the ball out of the container, let it stretch in your hand cold, and fold over a few times and ball it up.  The reball pies will have better crumb apperance and texture than the non reball RD pies.  guaranteed.

Chau

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23590
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »
Chau,

Are you worried that the RD dough balls will not make it out to another 24 hours of room temperature fermentation without re-balling? If so, would that also apply to the Caputo dough balls?

Peter


scott123

  • Guest
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2012, 01:42:07 PM »
Is it the breakdown of the gluten matrix, or maybe overfermentation of the dough, or maybe something else?

"Overfermentation"  has a negative connotation, so I might go with something like extreme fermentation or hyperfermentation, but yes, it's the gluten breaking down- in some parts more than others, hence the translucent bubbles.  At least, that's my theory.

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3102
  • Age: 44
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2012, 02:33:56 PM »
Hey... where are you in MA?  We have always had accardi, but Reinhardt foods now sells caputo flour and has a cash and carry window.    I love both caputo pizzeria and the RD 00 flour!  I think the best pizza I have probably ever made was with a 50/50 blend of it and all trumps and a 700 degree floor temp.   The texture was outstanding!  The RD flour (even without a flour blend) seems to deal with lower temps a bit better than Caputo.   It might not be quite as good as caputo at 900 degrees, but it definitely has its place for people trying to save money on wood, or with electric ovens.    

To make your test a bit more accurate try it again, and this time decrease the hydration by 2-3% on the RD flour.  
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 09:27:57 PM by scott r »

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
  • Location: MA
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2012, 04:07:34 PM »
Where we stand 3 hrs before takeoff.....

RD has been reballed as per Jackie's suggestion.....
Paolo

scott123

  • Guest
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2012, 04:13:53 PM »
Did you re-ball all of the RD?

You may consider reballing one or two of the RD balls.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7230
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2012, 06:45:28 PM »
Mangia Pizza, sorry if I had confused you, but Scott is right.  I wanted to see you only reball 1-2 balls and leave the remainder as is.  This is to show you what a reball can do if the dough is too hydrated or enzyme activity too high (basically if the dough balls are becoming pancakes).   But there is no harm in reballing all of them.   They will be fine and perform well as long as you allow them to at least double in size before baking.

But you are now less than 3 hours from baking?  Im sorry I didn't have a better understanding of the time frame of your dough otherwise I wouldn't have suggested a reball so close to baking.  I would bake the RD pies after the caputo pies as to let the RD pies ferment a bit more.  I typically like to see the balls at least double in volume before baking.   Also on the reball, it is a gentle reball, just a few folds of the dough over and then ball. Not like the initially balling where you might ball the dough tight.  On a reball, you want to be much gentler.  Sorry to throw a wrench in your experiment, but you may find that you like the RD pies better now.  We will see what happens.  At least you have plenty of flour to redo the experiment if you need to.  

Chau,

Are you worried that the RD dough balls will not make it out to another 24 hours of room temperature fermentation without re-balling? If so, would that also apply to the Caputo dough balls?

Peter

Peter, b/c he is using IDY, I'm not concerned about overfermentation as it is very difficult to overferment using commercial yeast b/c it doesn't produce acid (that I can taste anyway) like a natural leaven would.  Many times, I have found that with commercial yeast or cake yeast, the dough that I let set out and bake later in the bake continue to get better texture.  That is the crumb is lighter and airier.   The only thing I worry about the RD dough is if it is fermenting faster b/c of a lower protein content or higher enzyme activity hastening the break down of the gluten matrix.  That will cause the balls to become flat not holding co2 from fermentation, increase extensibility causing the balls to open too easily, thinning, and tearing, and just plan difficult to work with or launch.  That's why I suggested a gentle reball early in the process of 2nd phase of fermentation. The caputo balls may benefit from a reball, perhaps not.  I would have to see how they are progressing throughout the 2nd half of fermentation to say.  

Chau
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 06:53:09 PM by Jackie Tran »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23590
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2012, 07:16:39 PM »
Chau,

I am a little bit confused on the timing also. In his opening post, Paolo said that he was going with a 24-hour bulk rise followed by 24 hours in the balled state, both at a room temperature of 65 degrees F. My concern was whether a total of 48 hours might be too long with 0.025% IDY if the objective was a doubling of the dough.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12515
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2012, 08:27:53 PM »
The timing was misunderstood right from the start...it caused the confusion in the posts that were deleted....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Mangia Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
  • Location: MA
Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2012, 10:40:50 PM »
Margherita
Paolo


 

pizzapan