Author Topic: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand  (Read 6919 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2012, 12:58:25 PM »
Scott, seeing that picture brought back some memories.  One of our first exchanges on the forum.  As soon as I saw the picture, I instantly thought the vast amounts of bubbling you see in the dough is from how I develop the gluten with stretch and folds trapping air.  I read down a few post and I noted that I gave the same reason then. 

This maybe too late or may derail the experiment,  but if you have enough dough to make 2-3 pies with each batch.  You may consider reballing one or two of the RD balls.  It will balance out that enzyme activity Scott is talking about and will give you a closer result to the caputo ball.  But don't over do it on the reball.  And I would do it now, the further away from bake time the better.  Just a few folds to reball.  Take the ball out of the container, let it stretch in your hand cold, and fold over a few times and ball it up.  The reball pies will have better crumb apperance and texture than the non reball RD pies.  guaranteed.

Chau


Online Pete-zza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »
Chau,

Are you worried that the RD dough balls will not make it out to another 24 hours of room temperature fermentation without re-balling? If so, would that also apply to the Caputo dough balls?

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2012, 01:42:07 PM »
Is it the breakdown of the gluten matrix, or maybe overfermentation of the dough, or maybe something else?

"Overfermentation"  has a negative connotation, so I might go with something like extreme fermentation or hyperfermentation, but yes, it's the gluten breaking down- in some parts more than others, hence the translucent bubbles.  At least, that's my theory.

Offline scott r

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2012, 02:33:56 PM »
Hey... where are you in MA?  We have always had accardi, but Reinhardt foods now sells caputo flour and has a cash and carry window.    I love both caputo pizzeria and the RD 00 flour!  I think the best pizza I have probably ever made was with a 50/50 blend of it and all trumps and a 700 degree floor temp.   The texture was outstanding!  The RD flour (even without a flour blend) seems to deal with lower temps a bit better than Caputo.   It might not be quite as good as caputo at 900 degrees, but it definitely has its place for people trying to save money on wood, or with electric ovens.    

To make your test a bit more accurate try it again, and this time decrease the hydration by 2-3% on the RD flour.  
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 09:27:57 PM by scott r »

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2012, 04:07:34 PM »
Where we stand 3 hrs before takeoff.....

RD has been reballed as per Jackie's suggestion.....
Paolo

Offline scott123

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2012, 04:13:53 PM »
Did you re-ball all of the RD?

You may consider reballing one or two of the RD balls.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2012, 06:45:28 PM »
Mangia Pizza, sorry if I had confused you, but Scott is right.  I wanted to see you only reball 1-2 balls and leave the remainder as is.  This is to show you what a reball can do if the dough is too hydrated or enzyme activity too high (basically if the dough balls are becoming pancakes).   But there is no harm in reballing all of them.   They will be fine and perform well as long as you allow them to at least double in size before baking.

But you are now less than 3 hours from baking?  Im sorry I didn't have a better understanding of the time frame of your dough otherwise I wouldn't have suggested a reball so close to baking.  I would bake the RD pies after the caputo pies as to let the RD pies ferment a bit more.  I typically like to see the balls at least double in volume before baking.   Also on the reball, it is a gentle reball, just a few folds of the dough over and then ball. Not like the initially balling where you might ball the dough tight.  On a reball, you want to be much gentler.  Sorry to throw a wrench in your experiment, but you may find that you like the RD pies better now.  We will see what happens.  At least you have plenty of flour to redo the experiment if you need to.  

Chau,

Are you worried that the RD dough balls will not make it out to another 24 hours of room temperature fermentation without re-balling? If so, would that also apply to the Caputo dough balls?

Peter

Peter, b/c he is using IDY, I'm not concerned about overfermentation as it is very difficult to overferment using commercial yeast b/c it doesn't produce acid (that I can taste anyway) like a natural leaven would.  Many times, I have found that with commercial yeast or cake yeast, the dough that I let set out and bake later in the bake continue to get better texture.  That is the crumb is lighter and airier.   The only thing I worry about the RD dough is if it is fermenting faster b/c of a lower protein content or higher enzyme activity hastening the break down of the gluten matrix.  That will cause the balls to become flat not holding co2 from fermentation, increase extensibility causing the balls to open too easily, thinning, and tearing, and just plan difficult to work with or launch.  That's why I suggested a gentle reball early in the process of 2nd phase of fermentation. The caputo balls may benefit from a reball, perhaps not.  I would have to see how they are progressing throughout the 2nd half of fermentation to say.  

Chau
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 06:53:09 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2012, 07:16:39 PM »
Chau,

I am a little bit confused on the timing also. In his opening post, Paolo said that he was going with a 24-hour bulk rise followed by 24 hours in the balled state, both at a room temperature of 65 degrees F. My concern was whether a total of 48 hours might be too long with 0.025% IDY if the objective was a doubling of the dough.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2012, 08:27:53 PM »
The timing was misunderstood right from the start...it caused the confusion in the posts that were deleted....
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2012, 10:40:50 PM »
Margherita
Paolo


Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2012, 10:47:44 PM »
Asparago bianco

Paolo

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2012, 10:50:22 PM »
Hey... where are you in MA?  We have always had accardi, but Reinhardt foods now sells caputo flour and has a cash and carry window.    I love both caputo pizzeria and the RD 00 flour!  I think the best pizza I have probably ever made was with a 50/50 blend of it and all trumps and a 700 degree floor temp.   The texture was outstanding!  The RD flour (even without a flour blend) seems to deal with lower temps a bit better than Caputo.   It might not be quite as good as caputo at 900 degrees, but it definitely has its place for people trying to save money on wood, or with electric ovens.    

To make your test a bit more accurate try it again, and this time decrease the hydration by 2-3% on the RD flour.  

I'm in the North Shore, if I can get Caputo at a similar price of RD, I would prefer Caputo.  I'm going to follow your advice next time with lower hydration for RD.  Thanks for the info.
Paolo

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2012, 11:38:29 PM »
Gone awry..... ??  ❁ ★ ✫ ✧ ✽ ✦ ✫ ✱ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ✥ ✽ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✦ ✯✼ ✩ ✮ ✧ ✭ ★ ✫✾✩ ✫ ✦ ✩ ✭✺ ✻✧ ✻✩ ✭ ✭ ✧★ ✫ ✮ ✧★ ✩ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✱ ✧ ✫ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ❂❁ ★ ✫ ✧ ✽ ✦ ✫ ✱ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ✥ ✽ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✦ ✯✼ ✩ ✮ ✧ ✭ ★ ✫✾✩ ✫ ✦ ✩ ✭✺ ✻✧ ✻✩ ✭ ✭ ✧★ ✫ ✮ ✧★ ✩ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✱ ✧ ✫ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ❂......what fraction of experiments have a result less than the expectation......??

.....oh Paolo...... :-\
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 11:43:34 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2012, 11:43:09 PM »
Gone awry..... ??  ❁ ★ ✫ ✧ ✽ ✦ ✫ ✱ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ✥ ✽ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✦ ✯✼ ✩ ✮ ✧ ✭ ★ ✫✾✩ ✫ ✦ ✩ ✭✺ ✻✧ ✻✩ ✭ ✭ ✧★ ✫ ✮ ✧★ ✩ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✱ ✧ ✫ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ❂❁ ★ ✫ ✧ ✽ ✦ ✫ ✱ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ✥ ✽ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✦ ✯✼ ✩ ✮ ✧ ✭ ★ ✫✾✩ ✫ ✦ ✩ ✭✺ ✻✧ ✻✩ ✭ ✭ ✧★ ✫ ✮ ✧★ ✩ ✩✰ ✬ ✩ ✱ ✧ ✫ ✧ ✯✥ ✮ ❂......what fraction of experiments have a result less than the expectation......??

OK Bob. Take a deep breath.  And stop talking in wingdings.

Let's think back on the variables in this experiment.  You have 2 flours, same mixing, same hydration, same yeast, etc.  Same (unstated) bulk rising time, then same balling regimen.  At that point, it became different, due to reballing the RD balls. Experiment over, but pizza happened anyway. 

So, of the two doughs, what was the taste and feel difference?  Were there visible differences? 
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2012, 11:51:28 PM »
OK Bob. Take a deep breath.  And stop talking in wingdings.

Let's think back on the variables in this experiment.  You have 2 flours, same mixing, same hydration, same yeast, etc.  Same (unstated) bulk rising time, then same balling regimen.  At that point, it became different, due to reballing the RD balls. Experiment over, but pizza happened anyway. 

So, of the two doughs, what was the taste and feel difference?  Were there visible differences? 
Sorry friend...it was a long hot summer here and Elvis has left the building.....again   ::)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline scott123

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2012, 07:02:16 AM »
Based upon the 2 perfect 'teeth' at the top of margherita 2, I'm going to guess that it's RD. Asparago bianco 2 feels a little more RD-y as well.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2012, 07:42:32 AM »
My $1 is on the two rounder pizzas being Caputo, based on our earlier discussion that the RD dough would be harder to stretch uniformly.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2012, 08:08:00 AM »
Paolo,

Can you clarify the fermentation protocol you followed, including the time of the dough in bulk and the time in the ball stage?

And can you comment on what you thought of the pizzas and the two flours, and whether you found reballing the RD dough balls to be helpful?

Peter
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 08:41:15 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2012, 12:14:08 PM »
I'm in the North Shore, if I can get Caputo at a similar price of RD, I would prefer Caputo.  I'm going to follow your advice next time with lower hydration for RD.  Thanks for the info.

Oh, then you are very close to john accardi and sons.     They "say" they dont sell to the public, but they will sell to you.   Just be nice and order some tomatoes, or something else as to go with your order so its worth their processing time.    They have mentioned to me that an order of just one bag of flour isnt really profitable for them, but they will still do it for you.    Call and talk to angela and tell her about yourself, shes a great gal and will be happy to help.   I often get a case or two of imported italian water...a case of tomatoes, olive oil (great christmas gifts!) or sometimes even a case of buffalo mozzarella (it freezes with no problem because they get it so fresh). This is one of the few importers that actually do taste tests every year of their tomatoes to make sure they are buying the good stuff.    I have been there when they have received samples from  italian tomato packers to choose their house brands, and the whole place was buzzing with excitement about trying the new crops.   Its a family business with exceptional customer service.     Caputo flour will only be slightly more expensive than the RD 00, maybe $8-10.   I have forgotten exact prices.   

Having said all of that.... dont give up on the RD flour yet.    Just make sure that when your doing your next test you give the RD a few points less in hydration, and I think that you will see that they are similar. 

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: New experiment.... Caputo VS Restaurant Depot Brand
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2012, 01:31:52 PM »
Couple of more pizzas......comments to my results to follow soon....
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:34:29 PM by Mangia Pizza »
Paolo