Author Topic: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!  (Read 3912 times)

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Offline picollus

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Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« on: October 12, 2012, 12:39:42 AM »
I tried to let my dough ferment/rise overnight... not sure I understand what should happen.

QUESTION 1 : Do you cover the dough for overnight procedure. If Yes with plastic warp or humid cloth ?

QUESTION 2 : What should I expect after 24 hours (overnight) in the fridge

A) The dough should have fermented AND rised (doubled) slowly

OR

B) The dough should have fermented BUT NOT have rised
     A 2 hours warm rise is STILL required AFTER overnight fermentation

---------------

I Ask these question because, I get no rise after overnight in fridge.

With the same recipe, if I let rise at room temperature for 2 hour in warm condition without any overnight fermetation, it double without no problem.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 12:48:23 AM »
picollus,

Can you post your recipe and the steps you followed to make the dough?

Peter

Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 12:54:42 AM »
My recipe

Flour (100%):    204.16 g  |  7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (62.2%):    126.99 g  |  4.48 oz | 0.28 lbs
IDY (0.8%):    1.63 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt (2.22%):    4.53 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Oil (6.67%):    13.62 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.03 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Honey (4.44%):    9.06 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Total (176.33%):   360 g | 12.7 oz | 0.79 lbs | TF = N/A

Steps followed

1) Mix Flour, Salt, IDY
2) Mix Water, Oil, Honey
3) Put dry mix in wet mix
4) Hand kneaded until uniform texture (3 mins)
5) Put dough ball in oiled stainless bowl, cover with plastic warp
6) Put in fridge for 24 hours

Result after 24 hours: Same size ball, no rise.

scott123

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 03:53:40 AM »
Picollus, this may not relate to your problem, but what flour are you using? Between the 62% hydration and the moisture in the honey, it might be a little too much water for a weaker flour.

Also, again, not issue related, but if you knead gently, 3 minutes might not be enough kneading for this dough. I would go less by time and more by appearance- not cottage cheese looking, but not perfectly smooth either- somewhere in between the two.

What temperature is your water?  What temperature is your flour? How old is your yeast?

Cold fermentation, especially with refrigerators that run on the cold side, takes the yeast to an almost dormant state.  You'll get some yeast activity while the dough is cooling, but once the dough is completely chilled, it tends to ferment very slowly.

Round clear plastic proofing containers are invaluable for monitoring the bottom of the dough as it ferments.  The bottom of the dough will tell you exactly how much yeast activity has occurred and if the dough is ready to bake.

Offline sb 44 champs

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 05:44:55 AM »
Scott,

Can you elaborate further on what the bottom of the dough should look like?
Thanks
Eddie

Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 08:01:53 AM »
1) Type of flour

Flour = General White bleached All-Purpose flour... I have no choice... it's the only flour sold here.

I might have access to Robin Hood Bread Flour.. but If the nutritional information are identical to the all-purpose one.. so same protein content... http://robinhood.ca/product-details.aspx?pid=189&prodcid=44

2) I am pretty sure the kneading is alright. I add a little flour during kneading for Not sticky ball up to uniform texture.

3) Instant Yeast is new.

Question 1) For the temperature... do it really matter since everything go to the fridge ?

Question 2) So should it completely rise in the fridge then ?

Question 3) I never succeed to achieve a good air bubble network in the crust.. it's all compact... what's the trick ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 08:05:20 AM »
picollus,

Can you tell us what size pizzas you are making?

Peter


Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 08:07:06 AM »
For the size... about 14 inche round...

scott123

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 08:08:47 AM »
Can you elaborate further on what the bottom of the dough should look like?

It can get a bit subjective, but here's a shot of one of Norma's doughs that's a pretty good representation. This is about as far as you want to take it, imo.

Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 08:10:06 AM »
I ask these questions because i never reach this state of rising (as depicted in the photo) in the fridge !!!


scott123

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 08:18:54 AM »
Picollus, quantities on nutritional labels are rounded, and thus not reliable for comparing flours.  If you can get bread flour, you should.

Is the yeast in packets or in a bottle?  Bottled yeast tends to keep better.

The temperature of the water and the flour are critical, as that dictates the temp of the dough going into the fridge.  The fridge doesn't lower the temp of the dough immediately.  The dough starts at that initial temp and slowly drops in temp.  The higher the temp, the more fermentation you get before the dough is completely chilled.

What temperature is your water?

You want the dough to completely rise (a little more than double) by the time you stretch it- so it's not quite finished in the fridge, but gets to where you want it after you let it warm up a couple hours. If, after a couple hour warmup, the dough isn't where you want it to be, you can always leave it out for longer, time permitting.  Ideally, though, you will have used a yeast quantity and water temp that gives you a dough that's ready when you need it.

Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2012, 08:20:55 AM »
For oil & flour at room temparature, say 25 degree celcius, at what temperature the water should be ?

scott123

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 08:33:43 AM »
The water temperature should be less than 105, or you start killing yeast. With hand kneaded IDY dough, room temp is fine.

It's also essential that the water temperature should be measured and written down so that you can refer to these notes later. It's only through making dough and taking notes that you will get a set of data points that will allow you to predict how much yeast you'll need should you ever decide to change your recipe.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 09:52:08 AM »
picollus,

The dough formulation you posted most closely represents an "emergency" Papa John's type of dough but with a NY style crust thickness. I calculated the thickness factor for your dough formulation and it is 12.7/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0825.

In my opinion, you should take a look at the Papa John's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58195.html#msg58195, and particularly Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312, and also the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. If you read those two threads, I think you will come away with a much better understanding of your dough formulation.

scott123 has already raised several points that bear repeating. First is the flour. If you are using a generic white flour, its rated absorption value will most likely be around 60%. Your nominal hydration is already higher than that, at 62.2%. To that, you have to add the 17% water in the honey, or 1.54 grams. That raises the hydration to 62.96%. Since the oil also has a "wetting" effect, you should really add the amount of the oil to the hydration value to achieve what I often call the "effective" hydration. On that basis, the "effective" hydration is 69.63%. Unless you do a lot of stretch and folds, 69.63% effective hydration is far too high. Ideally, and as is discussed in the Papa John's thread, you want the combination of the formula hydration and the amount of oil to be about equal to the rated absorption value of the flour. In your case, that would make the formula hydration 52.58%.

Second, you mentioned the Robin Hood flour. If your objective is to make a Papa John's type of dough, even a thin version, then you want to use a higher protein flour. The protein content should be around 13.5-14%. I believe that the closest flour to that protein content that Robin Hood sells is the Best for Bread flour, as shown at http://www.robinhood.ca/product-details.aspx?pid=189&prodcid=44. An alternative would be the Five Roses flour, as is discussed at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8363.msg73520/topicseen.html#msg73520.

Third, I agree with scott123 that 3 minutes of hand kneading is not enough. Even with a highly hydrated dough, you need a fair amount of kneading in order to develop the gluten matrix and capture and retain the gases of fermentation. To avoid an overly sticky dough, you may even need to do some stretch and folds.

Setting all of the above aside for the moment, your dough formulation on paper should work and you should have gotten significant volume expansion of the dough. At 0.80% IDY, you are operating at "emergency" dough levels. You already observed that your dough doubled fairly quickly when fermented at room temperature. Without seeing photos of your dough when it was cold fermented, it is hard to say whether it rose. Often, high hydration doughs rise during cold fermentation but the rise is not particularly noticeable to the naked eye because such doughs tend to spread and slump during fermentation and can become almost pancake-like. My advice to you on this point is to use the poppy seed trick such as shown and described, for example, in the Papa John's thread at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. When using the poppy seed trick, you will want to cover the dough in its storage container (preferably a round clear container as scott123 noted). You might also make a small hole in the center of the lid to allow the gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation, as discussed in Reply 48 referenced above. What is puzzling in your case is that you said that your dough ball did not change size and, presumably, shape. Assuming that you used IDY, and not unrehydrated ADY (active dry yeast), you should have gotten a rise in the dough. Is it possible that you forgot to add the IDY in making your cold fermented dough? Even if you used ice cold water, at 0.80% IDY, you should have gotten some volume expansion of the dough. The only way I know of to have a dough not rise during one day of cold fermentation is to use very small amounts of yeast (say, below 0.15% IDY) and/or use very cold water and maybe a metal storage container. There are other ways of achieving this result but they are more esoteric and not applicable here.

I believe that we have collectively covered all of the points and questions you have raised but if we missed something, or you have new information to add, please let us know.

Peter

 

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 10:09:54 AM »
A couple of things to keep in mind;
When hand kneading the IDY should always be prehydrated in a small amount of 95F water for about 10-minutes, then add it to the dough water, and follow by then adding the remainder of the dough ingredients.
Also, the dough will not rise as much in the fridge as it will at room temperature, and this is just what we are looking for as it allows the yeast to do its job and develop a wonderful flavor in the dough while also contributing to further gluten development. Personally, I like to lightly oil the dough ball, place it into a bread bag, twist the open end into a pony tail and tuck it under the dough ball as I place it in the fridge. For best performance I like to hold the dough in the fridge for at least 2-days. As for the size of the dough balls, I normally look for about 25% expansion after 24-hours and something closer to 50% after 48-hours in the fridge, assuming a finished/mixed dough temperature in the 75 to 80F range and normal yeast levels (IDY: 0.375%) your IDY level is higher so you might experience a bit more expansion in the size of the dough balls. To use the dough after refrigeration, remove it from the fridge, keeping it in the bag, and allow it to temper AT room temperature for 60 to 90-minutes, then turn the dough ball out of the bag into a bowl of dusting flour and proceed to open the dough ball up into a pizza skin. I like to LIGHTLY brush the opened pizza skin with olive oil prior to dressing as this both improves flavor and helps to prevent migration of moisture from the sauce and toppings into the dough where it can end up creating an undesirable gum line under the sauce.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline vtn98

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 10:34:13 AM »
Try to cover with an airtight container like a tupperware or similar.  You don't want your dough exposed which will result in dry spots. A coating of oil helps also.  My dough, using a sourdough starter, will double in the fridge overnight.  The rise will slow the longer it stays in the fridge.  It's most active the first few hours as the dough is cooling. 

Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2012, 11:47:46 AM »
Thanks.

Will do another batch tonight with the following change.

1) Will try to proof my IDY in honey+water before mixing as suggester by Doctor !
2) Will swtich for topperware bown as suggester byVTN98
3) Will try the bread flour instaed
4) Will control my water temperature.

I will keep you informed of the result.

Question 1) On robin Hood web site, both flour (all-purpose and bread type) have 4g of protein... so how can they have different percentage of proteins ?

Question 2) What do you mean by "emergency dough levels"

scott123

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2012, 11:55:58 AM »
Question 1) On robin Hood web site, both flour (all-purpose and bread type) have 4g of protein... so how can they have different percentage of proteins ?

Because they are allowed to round their figures up and down.  The all-purpose might have 3.6 g of protein and the bread flour might have 4.4.  Because of the small serving size, this small difference can become quite large when you scale up.  This is why you can never trust protein quantities on nutritional labels.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »
Question 2) What do you mean by "emergency dough levels"

picollus,

See the first paragraph of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.msg71576.html#msg71576. When professionals make emergency doughs, it is usually because their regular dough was rendered unusable because of a cooler breakdown, or a power failure (often overnight when the pizzeria is closed), or there was an error in making the original dough (such as forgetting to add the yeast), or some other event tha made it necessary to come up quickly with a dough to meet customer orders.

Peter

Offline picollus

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Re: Cold Ferment / Overnight Fridge Rise HELP !!!
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2012, 12:05:45 AM »
After two months of trials and errors, I finally succeeded to create an awesome pizza.

Thanks to Pete-zza ,The Dough Doctor, scott123, vtn98. Subscribing to this forum was the right thing to do !

The chirurgical dosage and temperature control of ingredient, the high protein flour (bread type of robin hood flour) and the plastic container (instead of cold metal one) were the key of success.


It was my first successful attempt of 24 hours fermentation. (The last attempt resulted bad texture and consistence and unworkable dough)

WOW... What a incredible flavor. I will never go back to 2 hours rising ever !


The first two photos are my previous attempt that resulted with whitish and dense crust (no air)

The last two photos are my successful pizza with golden, developed crust and rich flavor.

--

My family was really impressed..  The pizza was tasting better than a lot of restaurant...

Thanks again to everyone...