Author Topic: Shakeys my latest part in the bag  (Read 6030 times)

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Offline elsegundo

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Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« on: October 12, 2012, 08:03:13 PM »
Enjoy!


bill


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 10:32:08 AM »
Nice find Bill.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 11:22:09 AM »
"ammonium sulfate, calcium sulfate" there is the Arkady discussed here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1642.msg14831.html#msg14831

Pizza is not bread.

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 01:14:44 AM »
I think Bill has provided the first photo of a bag of Shakey's pre-mix with a legible ingredients declaration. This information helps me immensely because I am testing my pizzas against samples purchased at a corporate Shakey's, then brought back east to me.

The ingredients statement seems to have again changed slightly from others posted here earlier.

At the time of my last experiments in June (I get flack for running the oven too much in the summer), I already had on hand some form of all the ingredients listed in the above photo. However, I have not been able to duplicate the aroma of the Shakey's samples when baking and do not rule out the possibility there is something in the mix that the FDA does not require to be declared and this is not listed on the bag. I am also considering the possibility that the dextrose is mixed with one or both of the yeast food ingredients by a bakery ingredients supplier which is then purchased by the pre-mix vendor.

A friendly chemistry major supplied me with some ammonium sulfate and I was able to buy all the powders in small quantities.

1. The dextrose and calcium sulfate were obtained from a shop selling home brewing supplies. The calcium sulfate may be called "food grade gypsum".

2. I did an exhaustive Internet search and see that techcheminc.com sells food grade ammonium sulfate in small quantities.

3. For a long time I have been trying to find out how makers of cake mixes and powdered pizza mixes like Duncan Hines and Martha White blend in the partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil. I was using shortening and cutting it into the flour. I don't think earlier posts mentioned soybean oil.

Offline norma427

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 06:58:35 AM »

3. For a long time I have been trying to find out how makers of cake mixes and powdered pizza mixes like Duncan Hines and Martha White blend in the partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil. I was using shortening and cutting it into the flour. I don't think earlier posts mentioned soybean oil.

Zing,

I played around with some shortening powders.  One source was from the Food Source, Inc.  http://www.foodsourceinc.com/search.asp?q=shortening+powder  I also asked for samples of shortening powders different places and received them.  One of them was at Reply 318 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg144788.html#msg144788 from Bluegrass Dairy and Food.  http://www.bluegrassdairy.com/creamers_and_shortening_powders.html  If you look though the Mystery Pizza thread, some of the mixes made with shortening powders can be seen.

All the shortening powders I received were different.  I donít know if this helps you, or not, but thought I would post about the shortening powders.

Norma
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Offline Zing

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 09:29:48 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for the information about the shortening powders. That may indeed be how they are doing it. But I recall reading a US Government agency report by the FDA or USDA from many years ago that mentioned that oil/shortening was sprayed directly onto the flour used in the mixes. There seems to be very little written about how cake mixes are manufactured.

Lightmeter reported that they used bricks of solid shortening back in the day in Shakey's in the Washington, DC Metro area. I will read the references you provided, as I am interested in the differences in baked goods made with powdered shortenings versus liquid or solid oils/shortening that are easily obtained.

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 10:13:18 AM »
Some of the FDA's rules on food labeling can be found here:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.4

Offline norma427

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »
Zing,

I sure donít know if any, or all the ways ingredients can be sprayed directly on the flour used in different mixes, but I am almost sure they can be applied that way.  Different companies also sell spray-dried oil and other ingredients.  I have no idea how cake mixes are manufactured. 

I havenít read much about Shakeyís and how they made their dough days in Washington, DC Metro area. 

Norma
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Offline elsegundo

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2012, 10:38:48 PM »
I posted the ingredients because I wanted to be able to retreive the info in my aging years. But- the secret is not in the ingredients so much as the laminating that is done with the dough. If you think of croissants made with shortening instead of butter for technique you will see that the layering is what you are looking for if you like this kind of pizza. It is labor intensive which is why the style has  mostly disappeared. I have an old post which describes the technique Shakey's and Round Table uses. If I find my notes I will repost, otherwise look at the RT posts for technique.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 10:18:05 AM »
I posted the ingredients because I wanted to be able to retreive the info in my aging years. But- the secret is not in the ingredients so much as the laminating that is done with the dough. If you think of croissants made with shortening instead of butter for technique you will see that the layering is what you are looking for if you like this kind of pizza. It is labor intensive which is why the style has  mostly disappeared. I have an old post which describes the technique Shakey's and Round Table uses. If I find my notes I will repost, otherwise look at the RT posts for technique.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Thanks for adding that, Bill.  Yes, the lamination is the key for this kind of pizza, probably even more than the ingredients. 

If elected president, I promise a sheeter in every home.  :-D

-ME
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Offline elsegundo

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 10:24:10 PM »
You have my vote.



Bill

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 09:02:06 PM »
Given my latest revelation that the shakey's dough is more than likely a lower protein flour given it's hydration ratio, I tried making a pie with Mondako flour at 38% hydration. At this hydration I could not completely incorporate all the flour. I left it in the bag partially mixed overnight in the refridgerator to give it more time for the absorption. The next morning I could barely get he rest of the flour in a few kneads. This was made with lard, so perhaps the results would have been slightly different using oil. I also cooked this in my conveyor oven. Here are the dough specs:

Flour (100%):
Water (38%):
ADY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Lard (2%):
Total (144.5%):
690.32 g  |  24.35 oz | 1.52 lbs
262.32 g  |  9.25 oz | 0.58 lbs
3.45 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
13.81 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.47 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
13.81 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.46 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
13.81 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.19 tsp | 1.06 tbsp
997.52 g | 35.19 oz | 2.2 lbs | TF = 0.175

The pictures follow. Pie is the reference standard pepperoni, mushroom and sausage with fresh garlic. One thing I didn't care for is the "bread" texture of the crust bottom. Using AT at a higher hydration I get nice blistering. This crust has no blisters. Perhaps it would benefit from fermenting >24 hours. In terms of machineability, the dough was very tough and would benefit from some conditioners. If felt like cold modeling clay. Layer separation was really good in the oven, perhaps better than some of my other formulations. I made the pies closer to 3/8" thick so that might have played a role here.

For future pies to develop this further, I suspect two things I need to change; 1) The hydration is probably closer to 40% given the comments by La Sera in the RT bag thread. I used the whole bag weight when calculating the hydration ratio when actually a portion ~4% is most likely sugar, salt, etc. in the bag and 2) I would add some PZ44 to account for the dough conditioners which appear at the bottom of the list.

Offline Zing

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 11:57:26 PM »
I have also noticed that I get better results with GM Better for Bread flour than with All Trumps unbleached and unbromated. For one 1 pound batch, I used an outrageous 1/3 teaspoon ammonium sulfate with bread flour. The dough became very slack.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 10:04:44 AM »
Nice photos, Dan.  I just ordered some Mondako flour from that New York Bakers website that was posted a while back (by you?), so I am going to give my Shakey's and Round Table clone recipes a try with these.  I recently happened to be in Anaheim on a work trip and made two visits to the local Shakey's there.  It is one of the newer, remodeled versions.  I noticed they use conveyor ovens, compared to the one in Oroville which still uses the Blodgett deck ovens.  The final result is one that was not unexpected, and in fact is why I tend to loathe conveyor pizza ovens: the crust was too underdone.  No browning on the edge at all and barely any underneath.  The overall taste was fine, but the texture was drastically lacking.  I will post the photos I took on my iPhone hopefully some time soon to better illustrate what I mean.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 12:35:29 PM »
Yeah that post was mine. I talked back and fourth with the owner a bit and they decided it was a good specialty flour to stock. It's the only place I have been able to find that flour.

Regarding the Shakey's premix bag, does anyone think the the items above the yeast are found in >2% amounts? Reason I ask is after the yeast it specifically states that it contains <2% of the dough conditioner ingredients. That to me implies the ingredients prior are >2%. Although 2% yeast seems high, it's definitely in agreement with members who worked there saying they used to have to punch down the dough several times during the day. What always stumped me about this dough is it's very dry, but the tales from former employees say it was a highly active dough. When I make a dry dough, I don't see high activity like this. When I make a wet dough, it doesn't sheet out like the video that Lydia posted from the sheeting done in mexico. Are we looking at two versions of the same thing? I suspect in the past the dough was more wet or the yeast was better because it was added in fresh blocks. Your thoughts?

Also Zing, I don't think flavorings need to be added to the bag unless they contain dyes. *That smell* could easily be some sour extract or somthing that is concetrated and added in a small amount. To me, that is the real IP of Shakey's. Without that you just have flour,water,oil,yeast, and some dough conditioner in a bag.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 12:39:55 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 03:56:28 PM »
I suspect in the past the dough was more wet or the yeast was better because it was added in fresh blocks. Your thoughts?

Also Zing, I don't think flavorings need to be added to the bag unless they contain dyes. *That smell* could easily be some sour extract or somthing that is concetrated and added in a small amount. To me, that is the real IP of Shakey's. Without that you just have flour,water,oil,yeast, and some dough conditioner in a bag.
I believe you are correct on both accounts....better yeast in fresh blocks and probably a bit higher hydration than what is being used here on the forum.
I cannot picture a "technique" that is going to give "the smell" and I completely agree that it will be an additive...could VERY well have been their yeast.

btw, to those of you lucky enough to have one near you do their restaurants still have "the smell"  ???
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 03:59:02 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 10:04:01 PM »
I believe you are correct on both accounts....better yeast in fresh blocks and probably a bit higher hydration than what is being used here on the forum.

I concur.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 10:23:16 PM »
Here are some photos of a pizza I had on my second night at Shakey's in Anaheim, CA a little over a week ago.  The place is done up in the new Shakey's style, and they are using conveyor ovens which I could barely see from the counter where I placed my order.  I got a small half Hawaiian/half sausage + mushroom.  Over the taste was good, but the texture was flat.  It tasted a little underdone to me.  Look at the edge of the crust and you will see it is almost white.  The underside was not much better.  There was a minimal amount of puffiness, but I did manage to capture a pic of one slice that had some puffiness near the edge.  Overall not a bad experience, but not a great one either.  All in all, I was just glad to be able to order a Shakey's pizza again, as my trips to areas where Shakey's is available are likely to decline in the months and years to come.

-ME
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Offline Zing

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2012, 11:33:55 PM »
Thanks for the pictures, Ernie. FWIW, that is a corporate location, one of 4 they bought a few years ago from the Big's Pizza and More chain, which itself were Shakey's that went independent. Compared to the samples I have been getting, this pie was under cooked. Scuttlebutt says a lot of corporate Shakey's use XLT conveyor ovens.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Shakeys my latest part in the bag
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 02:12:11 AM »
Did you notice any blistering on the bottom? or was it more smooth? Hard to tell up close in the pics. Also is that a little bit of cornmeal flakes I see?