Author Topic: Neo-NY in under 6 min?  (Read 2049 times)

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Offline enzopizza

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Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« on: October 12, 2012, 09:51:13 PM »
Hi Guys!

Quick question for you all.  What commercial gas oven and accessorieswould I need to get a 9"-10" Neo-Ny Pie in under 6 Minutes.
Do I need certain stone and/or pizza sheet?  What temperature would be best to work at?

I would prefer to work with a blodgett or baker's pride however I would love to know what recommendations you guys would have to help me achieve this?

Thanks

Vince


Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 10:02:59 AM »
any suggestions?

Offline norma427

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 05:20:19 PM »
any suggestions?



enzopizza,

Maybe you could ask the dough doctor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,65.0.html or you might also register, search, or ask questions on PMQTT where more professional pizza operators are, if you havenít already done that already. http://thinktank.pmq.com/
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewforum.php?f=6

Norma
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:21:54 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 05:41:38 PM »
I think there is a lot of grey area in this question leading to the lack of answers.  By Neo-NY I assume you are looking for a coal oven style?  If that is the case some purists would probably tell you without the dry heat and convection of a coal oven the product won't be the same.  Same goes for the 9-10" size, I think most people would agree that you are going to lose a lot of the "style" in anything that isn't 18", let alone something so far from it.

That all said you can make a great 9-10" pizza in under 6 minutes that will fall well within the NY realm with a gas fired deck oven.   
-Jeff

Offline scott123

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 10:32:16 AM »
Vince, Neo is 45-90 seconds, NY is 4-6 minutes.  Neo-NY is between 2 and 4 minutes.

You're going to have a hard time hitting that in a gas oven. Brick lined Marsal MBs can do 4 minutes, and with a modded thermostat, you might be able to trim some time off of that, but you're always going to be hampered by the lack of top heat. Electric ovens, such as Pizzamaster, are much more geared towards sub 4 minute bakes.

Not that I'm recommending 2-4 minute bakes.  I, personally, feel pretty strongly that most people prefer 4 minute pizza to 3. 3 is kind of a no man's land that doesn't work as well as either 90 sec or 4. 4-6 is highly profitable, phenomenal pizza.  For that, it's the Marsal MB all the way. Just call it 'NY' rather than 'Neo-NY,' as Jeff pointed out.  If you need to appease your current customers with the longer baked pies you're making, get a double and run one deck at a lower temp. After tasting a 4-5 minute pie, though, I think your longer baked pies will be a thing of the past.

And Jeff's right about the sizing.  Selling a 9" neo-ny pie is like omitting the chocolate chips from a chocolate chip cookie.  Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 12:46:31 PM »
Thanks guys!  Not as experienced as all you...but ok so I guess what I mean is that I am looking for a NY style.  What I'm doing over here is serving people by the slice (so they can take it on the go), and for the customers that want to eat in and have a personal size 10", I was looking to find the quickest and best method to use.  A quick cook time is very important (along with the taste obviously).  Because I am not permitted to use a wfo or coal fired oven here, I am currently on a garland gas running at 550.  So I need a gas oven that will give me a a great 10" thin pizza in the quickest time.  If a blodgett or baker's pride can do this in that time thats great as there are a few ovens for sale over here that I can take a look at.  Just not sure if I need a a certain stone/brick/mod to put into the specific oven I get.  Or do I cook right on the stone, or should I use a thin sheet as opposed to the pans I use now for a 10".




Vince, Neo is 45-90 seconds, NY is 4-6 minutes.  Neo-NY is between 2 and 4 minutes.

You're going to have a hard time hitting that in a gas oven. Brick lined Marsal MBs can do 4 minutes, and with a modded thermostat, you might be able to trim some time off of that, but you're always going to be hampered by the lack of top heat. Electric ovens, such as Pizzamaster, are much more geared towards sub 4 minute bakes.

Not that I'm recommending 2-4 minute bakes.  I, personally, feel pretty strongly that most people prefer 4 minute pizza to 3. 3 is kind of a no man's land that doesn't work as well as either 90 sec or 4. 4-6 is highly profitable, phenomenal pizza.  For that, it's the Marsal MB all the way. Just call it 'NY' rather than 'Neo-NY,' as Jeff pointed out.  If you need to appease your current customers with the longer baked pies you're making, get a double and run one deck at a lower temp. After tasting a 4-5 minute pie, though, I think your longer baked pies will be a thing of the past.

And Jeff's right about the sizing.  Selling a 9" neo-ny pie is like omitting the chocolate chips from a chocolate chip cookie.  Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 12:53:02 PM »

  For that, it's the Marsal MB all the way. Just call it 'NY' rather than 'Neo-NY,' as Jeff pointed out.  If you need to appease your current customers with the longer baked pies you're making, get a double and run one deck at a lower temp. After tasting a 4-5 minute pie, though, I think your longer baked pies will be a thing of the past.


Other than a Marsal what other ovens would you recommend to do a 6 minute NY style pie?  I have seen the electric oven's pizzamaster's and another company (moretti forni) and I've heard they make great pies as well.  I have no experience with electric and not sure how they perform with regards to taste and the difference with cost effiency (gas vs electric)


Offline scott123

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 01:24:16 PM »
Vince, NY style should be baked directly on the stone.

What bake times are you getting now in the Garland? How high does the Garland go, temperature wise? What are the BTUs? Ceiling height? Deck dimensions?

It depends on the dough formulation, but I would think that most gas ovens can do 6 minutes unmodded. If you want to be certain that it can do 6, I'd either add a brick ceiling of your own or buy one with a brick ceiling.  The Baker's Pride used to come with an optional brick ceiling, but now that I look at the specs, I'm not seeing that option.

Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 02:14:08 PM »
Vince, NY style should be baked directly on the stone.

What bake times are you getting now in the Garland? How high does the Garland go, temperature wise? What are the BTUs? Ceiling height? Deck dimensions?

It depends on the dough formulation, but I would think that most gas ovens can do 6 minutes unmodded. If you want to be certain that it can do 6, I'd either add a brick ceiling of your own or buy one with a brick ceiling.  The Baker's Pride used to come with an optional brick ceiling, but now that I look at the specs, I'm not seeing that option.

Awesome! if an unmodded  gas oven can get me 6-7 Minute bake time I'd be happy.   So lets say I decide to go with a baker's pride or blodgett oven, your saying to bake directly on the stone?  What BTU's should I be looking at? and if it is left unmodded what temp should I be operating at?  To be honest I've never tried a 10" ny style in this oven because it's not the proper dough to use.  Plus this is the oven I inherited with the business so I would go out and get another for this purpose.  I bought into the franchise and pretty much have the dough delivered to me every day and the appliances were provided for me.  Now that I am going to venture off into my own I want to get an oven that can still offer quality thin crust slices as well as give my customers the option to dine in and have their pizza ready in under 6-7 min. 

Another forum user mentioned to look at the pizzamaster electric but before I go the electric root I am hoping I can find a gas solution.  Thanks so much for your help, trust me it much appreciated

Offline scott123

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2012, 04:23:12 PM »
Vince, bake directly on the stone, yes.  Use a wooden peel to launch and a metal peel to turn and retrieve.

I judge gas ovens by the BTUs per square inch of deck real estate.  Whatever oven you're looking at- take depth and width and multiply them together to get the square inches and then divide the total BTUs per deck by that number to get BTUs/sq. inch.

The best ovens you get can get, the Marsal MB and the Baker's Pride Y600 are 55 BTU/sq. inch.  You can find ovens that will go all the way down to 30 BTU/sq. inch, but 40 is about as low as you want to go. Touch base with Norma.  Her oven is 30 BTU/sq. inch. I know that when she cranks up the heat, the bottom of the pizza burns before the top is done, but I don't know how low of a bake time she can hit while still maintaining an even top/bottom heat. She might be able to hit 6 minutes, but I'm not sure.

Even if Norma can comfortably hit 6 minutes, I'd still shoot for a 40+ BTU/sq. inch oven, as this will give a bit more flexibility down the road. For instance, if, at 6 minutes, you're encountering too much bottom heat, you can slow down the bottom with a less conductive hearth such as Fibrament.  In order to accommodate for this handicap, though, you'll need the extra 10 BTUs/sq. inch.

Btw, 6 minutes, for NY style, can be incredibly generic.  Norma's pies aren't generic, but she's the exception to the rule. If you want some 'wow' factor, you might want to follow your initial inclination towards a faster baked Neo-NY pie. This makes your oven quest a lot more difficult, but, at the end of the day, your product will stand out that much more.


Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 04:32:04 PM »
Scott that's a great response. Really appreciate that.  I am debating between the gas as well as the Pizzamaster/Moretti Electric ovens. A few places in my part of town use them and they produce some great pies.  With the pizzamaster's you can control both the top and bottom elements of each deck and can reach up to 900 degrees if need be. Then of course there are the gas decks as an option as well but I won't get that hight of a temperature.   In the pizzamaster 10/11" pies would have a fast cook time, that I'm pretty sure of.  Just wondering if anybody has any experience with these electric ovens...




Vince, bake directly on the stone, yes.  Use a wooden peel to launch and a metal peel to turn and retrieve.

I judge gas ovens by the BTUs per square inch of deck real estate.  Whatever oven you're looking at- take depth and width and multiply them together to get the square inches and then divide the total BTUs per deck by that number to get BTUs/sq. inch.

The best ovens you get can get, the Marsal MB and the Baker's Pride Y600 are 55 BTU/sq. inch.  You can find ovens that will go all the way down to 30 BTU/sq. inch, but 40 is about as low as you want to go. Touch base with Norma.  Her oven is 30 BTU/sq. inch. I know that when she cranks up the heat, the bottom of the pizza burns before the top is done, but I don't know how low of a bake time she can hit while still maintaining an even top/bottom heat. She might be able to hit 6 minutes, but I'm not sure.

Even if Norma can comfortably hit 6 minutes, I'd still shoot for a 40+ BTU/sq. inch oven, as this will give a bit more flexibility down the road. For instance, if, at 6 minutes, you're encountering too much bottom heat, you can slow down the bottom with a less conductive hearth such as Fibrament.  In order to accommodate for this handicap, though, you'll need the extra 10 BTUs/sq. inch.

Btw, 6 minutes, for NY style, can be incredibly generic.  Norma's pies aren't generic, but she's the exception to the rule. If you want some 'wow' factor, you might want to follow your initial inclination towards a faster baked Neo-NY pie. This makes your oven quest a lot more difficult, but, at the end of the day, your product will stand out that much more.

Offline scott123

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 04:50:59 PM »
In almost all markets, it seems like gas ovens tend to be a little cheaper, fuel wise, than electric. This is why gas have the lion's share of the market. But, yes, if you want flexibility when it comes to bake times, nothing touches the electric deck ovens.

The only person I know using a Pizzamaster is Jeff Varasano, but that's a pretty prestigious endorsement, imo. As far as I know they're great, but a bit expensive. The only known downside is that they're fairly renowned for having horrible customer service.  Sales reps tend to be pretty bad at returning emails. Other than that, though, if you have the money and are willing to pay the extra for electricity, this is a pretty kick butt oven.  Give Jeff a call at his shop and see if he's still happy with his oven. If he is, that's what I'd get.

David Sheridan, a member here and a contributor to Slice, is opening a new place in Brooklyn in 2013 that will have a Moretti:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/openings-wheated-ditmas-park-brooklyn.html

David is a very sharp guy, so I have no doubt that he did his homework.  I'd drop him a line as well to get an idea of what prompted him to take this direction.

Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 05:16:12 PM »
Aside from the upfront cost of the pizzamaster I'm curious to know how the monthly electrical bill would be. If its similar to gas then I wouldn't be too concerned.  However if the bills are out of control I'd be nervous.  I hear they are efficient but without any experience with one I wouldn't know for sure.  Also what is David's name on here, I'd like to send him a message to see what he thinks about the electric oven.  Thanks again Scott :)

In almost all markets, it seems like gas ovens tend to be a little cheaper, fuel wise, than electric. This is why gas have the lion's share of the market. But, yes, if you want flexibility when it comes to bake times, nothing touches the electric deck ovens.

The only person I know using a Pizzamaster is Jeff Varasano, but that's a pretty prestigious endorsement, imo. As far as I know they're great, but a bit expensive. The only known downside is that they're fairly renowned for having horrible customer service.  Sales reps tend to be pretty bad at returning emails. Other than that, though, if you have the money and are willing to pay the extra for electricity, this is a pretty kick butt oven.  Give Jeff a call at his shop and see if he's still happy with his oven. If he is, that's what I'd get.

David Sheridan, a member here and a contributor to Slice, is opening a new place in Brooklyn in 2013 that will have a Moretti:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/openings-wheated-ditmas-park-brooklyn.html

David is a very sharp guy, so I have no doubt that he did his homework.  I'd drop him a line as well to get an idea of what prompted him to take this direction.

Offline scott123

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 05:56:14 PM »

Offline enzopizza

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 06:18:11 PM »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2012, 08:55:17 AM »
Just my opinion...I think you would pick up more business with a 12in pie rather than the 10. Couples eating together will share a 12 instead of doing slices if they don't want the expense of buying 2 10's. And the hungry individual will be your friend if you give him a 12 instead of a 10...that is a really small looking pizza when cut into slices.
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Offline TheDude

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 02:50:09 AM »
I do a neo-ny pie in a commercial setting.  We are using two Forno Bravo Napoli140W 56" Ovens..no gas...on a 16 in pie and cook times are around 2-3 minutes.  If you are stuck on gas..dunno...maybe give Forno a call..they do offer those ovens with a gas option and "claim" they can hit the temps needed.  But on that I just don't know.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neo-NY in under 6 min?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 10:26:35 AM »
I do a neo-ny pie in a commercial setting.  We are using two Forno Bravo Napoli140W 56" Ovens..no gas...on a 16 in pie and cook times are around 2-3 minutes.  If you are stuck on gas..dunno...maybe give Forno a call..they do offer those ovens with a gas option and "claim" they can hit the temps needed.  But on that I just don't know.

I'm confused, you website says you do Neapolitan?
-Jeff


 

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