Author Topic: Cracker Style for busy shop  (Read 3672 times)

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Offline FredFlin

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Cracker Style for busy shop
« on: October 13, 2012, 03:41:41 AM »
Hi

I've read this forum a lot and see that everyone has their own style / recipe for the cracker pizza. I also know its not a simple thing to get right.

Anyway, what I'm after is a relatively simple recipe that I can use in my quite busy take away store, a recipe that is fairly fool proof that I can hand to my staff and have them repeat day in and out. I'm making batches on 12kg of flour at a time using a mixer and then a roller. Currently my dough process is mix, rise for an hour, use... Simple but not the result I'm looking for.

My crust at the moment is quite bread like, slightly crispy and bubbly but not thin and crispy enough. The trend here seems to be going to the cracker type base and my customers are asking more and more for thin and crispy.

I look forward to your suggestions.

Thanks

Ps I use a wood fired oven
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 03:45:36 AM by FredFlin »


Offline Little Joe

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 08:27:37 AM »
I use 50/50 water and flour with a little bacon grease added. Tt makes a very nice bubbly and crunchy crust.

Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 09:26:03 AM »
I use 50/50 water and flour with a little bacon grease added. Tt makes a very nice bubbly and crunchy crust.

That's pretty much where I am at... How long you letting it rise for and room temp or fridge? Fresh yeast or dry yeast?

Thanks

Offline Little Joe

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 06:57:14 PM »
No yeast, just flour, water, bacon grease. I keep it in the fridge with wet towel over it. Dough can be used immediately after being mixed. 

Offline ThatsAmore

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 03:24:53 PM »
This thread ... http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1311.0.html  is worth reading IMO to assist you with your search.
Who put that pie in my eye ?

Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 04:39:58 PM »

Offline ThatsAmore

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 05:18:43 PM »
Who put that pie in my eye ?

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 07:32:59 PM »
I thought it meant:

Ignore
Most
Others


Wait, I guess it does....

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 07:44:31 PM »
Fred, with that WFO you may need to go yeastless as per Little Joe. What temp are you running the WFO ? Also, post your dough formula.....
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Offline Little Joe

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 12:07:49 AM »
You don't need to add the bacon grease, it just adds a nice flavor. I do add a little salt. I bake on a screen at 600 deg F then to finish it off I pull the screen and slide pie directly on stone for approx 2 min. Also, I do not dock the dough.

Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 03:58:13 AM »
My dough recipe is difficult as I am part of a franchise and get a "spice pack" from the franchisor. This is supposed to contain the yeast, salt and whatever else they feel needs to be in there (not sure what). However we have had the same recipe for the last 30 years and I am on a drive to have it improved / modernized. My customers are definitely after thin and crispy where as in the past we have been quite bread like, thin-ish, slightly crispy, slightly bubbly, chewy, and like I said but very bready. Until recently I have been using a 60% hydration and about an hour proofing time. We use cake flour. (Our options are cake or white bread)

In my latest experiment I have gone to a 44% hydration but have continued to use the "mysterious" spice pack head office supplies. I am allowing about a 9 hour proof but am getting the feeling that the longer it proofs the better it will be as it seems it is getting lighter the longer I leave it without loosing the crisp. As part of my drive I have managed to convince head office to look into the 'spice pack' so we know what is in there but this will only happen towards the end of the month. I'm currently doing as much research and testing as I can before my session at the end of the month.

This is my latest IMO (thanks ThatsAmore :D for that) its getting there:

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 09:39:21 AM »
Fred,
Your're asking for help with your dough and you give us a pic of your cheese?  :D
Well, for now I believe the easiest improvement will be to get rid of that cake flour. It's low protein content hinders crumb structure...hence, the hollow blowout I can see on the one slice. You mention you have the option of using "white bread flour", not sure if you mean "all purpose" or actual "bread flour" but either one should give a nice improvement. Have you tried this yet?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 10:00:40 AM »
Hi Chicago Bob

that was a picture of my cracker crust.. hmmm so you're not impressed...  :o

Will give white bread flour a try

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 10:09:29 AM »
Hi Chicago Bob

that was a picture of my cracker crust.. hmmm so you're not impressed...  :o

Will give white bread flour a try
Well, I can't see anything except that blow hole. :)  Have you tried making one of these on a pan yet? I'd like to see this done on a "cutter" pan...with a small 3/8-1/4in. lip on the pan. Dress the pizza all the way up to the lip and bake.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline pythonic

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 09:20:39 PM »
Hi Chicago Bob

that was a picture of my cracker crust.. hmmm so you're not impressed...  :o

Will give white bread flour a try

Cracker crust looks decent.  Any reviews yet?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 05:02:38 PM »
Tom Lehmann recently posted at the PMQ Think Tank on a yeast-less dough for a cracker style, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84021#p84021.

There is additional discussion on the topic elsewhere in the same thread.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2012, 05:26:20 PM »
I did an experiment with unfermented dough a few months ago, which I documented in a thread on here somewhere. In this experiment I baked some pizzas using dough without yeast, and I also made pizzas using essentially identical dough with yeast but no fermentation time. From what I remember, I made a few batches of each type of dough, making minor changes with each batch.

I'd probably call these pizzas cracker style.

Without yeast, the crusts ended up pale, gummy, lifeless, and flavorless. They were floppy and sorta resembled tortillas. These pizzas weren't horrible, and they were even pretty good in some ways, but I would never consider serving them to paying customers.

When I used yeast but did everything else the same as I did with my yeastless dough, the pizzas were much better and much more presentable. Every time. The two major differences I remember are: 1) No gummy, soggy crust, and 2) Much better flavor. Seriously, yeast added a ton of good flavor.

From what I remember, buceriasdon indicated that my results were consistent with his experience doing the same (or a similar) experiment.

Obviously there are some things to consider before trying to translate my results to a commercial environment. Regardless, what I did was very easy, and I don't think it would take much effort to translate it to a commercial setting.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2012, 12:07:02 PM »
Having a bit of a tough time with this with mixed results....

Tried:
  • 40% hydration which rose well and over flowed from its container but was very sticky after 12 hours
  • so we tried leaving it in the cold room to rise...once I got great dough, the next time very hard dough which hardly rose at all

I think what I'm going to try next is less water to start and leave to rise at room temp.

What I'm trying to avoid is a weak base that flops once it has toppings on...

My thinking (and I love to hear your thoughts) is the more water the weaker the base ie floppy... Less water = a crispy base, but not enough water a very hard base. No yeast again a hard more compact dough. Light, thin and crispy with a bit of strength so it does flop is this possible?

It seems very difficult to get consistency... One day the dough is good the next day sticky.. I haven't tried white bread flour yet but the delivery came yesterday and we'll be trying it this week.

I'll keep trying, if I could get consistent results it would certainly help so adjustments would be easier..

 ???

buceriasdon

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2012, 12:42:19 PM »
Are you weighing your flour and water or using volume measurements? I suspect volume because of your lack of consistency.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2012, 03:20:22 PM »
Are you weighing your flour and water or using volume measurements? I suspect volume because of your lack of consistency.

I'm with Don. Also, a dough with 40% hydration shouldn't feel remotely sticky, nor should it rise much. If your dough is overflowing from its container, it's almost certainly not a 40% hydration dough.

Could you explain how you measure your dough ingredients?
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2012, 03:43:16 PM »
Our flour comes in 12,5kg bags, so 1 bag and we measure 5 liters of water

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2012, 05:35:28 PM »
My thinking (and I love to hear your thoughts) is the more water the weaker the base ie floppy... Less water = a crispy base, but not enough water a very hard base. No yeast again a hard more compact dough. Light, thin and crispy with a bit of strength so it does flop is this possible?

"Hard more compact dough" is vague and open to interpretation, especially since you're talking about using dough without yeast.

After sitting around for a few hours at room-temperature, a low hydration yeast dough certainly feels softer than the same dough without yeast. However, I pretty much always think of dough stiffness as the stiffness of dough immediately after mixing, rather than how it feels after it rises. So under those terms: Yeast does not affect the stiffness of dough, but it can affect the rigidity of crust. And based on the results of my unleavened experiment, I feel pretty confident saying yeast affects crust rigidity in a completely opposite way than what you seem to be thinking.

Yes, more water (or higher hydration percentage) = more flop potential. But to me, lower hydration percentage translates to crunchy, not necessarily crispy. Also, hydration is not the only factor that determines a dough's potential for crispy/crunchy vs. soft/floppy. In fact, I don't even think it's the biggest factor, as I'll try to explain.

Based on the results of my experiment with yeastless dough vs. unrisen yeast dough, I can tell you that stiff, yeastless dough does not translate to crispier or crunchier crust than unrisen yeast dough. In fact, my results showed the complete opposite. After making only a few pizzas out of yeastless dough, I can say with a high degree of certainty that I would never consider using yeastless dough again. Especially in a commercial environment. Just by including yeast in the dough, without giving the dough any time to rise, my pizzas were crispier and crunchier than pizzas made of identical dough with no yeast. The pizzas made of yeastless dough were floppy, watery, tasteless, and unmarketable.

In the end, my experiment told me that no yeast leads to soft, floppy, wet crust, even with low hydration dough (40%). Yet in this experiment, as well as in other pizzamaking adventures, I've made countless crispy crusts out of yeast dough ranging from 40% hydration to 65% hydration.

If you choose to offer pizzas made of yeastless dough, I feel pretty confident predicting that the pizzeria won't be busy for long.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 05:37:50 PM »
Our flour comes in 12,5kg bags, so 1 bag and we measure 5 liters of water

If I did the conversions right, 12.5 kg of flour with 5 liters of water comes to 41.46% hydration. If you're measuring everything correctly, that should be a pretty stiff dough. However, I can imagine the stiffness would change considerably if you're using cake flour (which I've never used). So I can't tell you what's going on there, and I doubt that anyone else will be able to help you without more details.

So hopefully you will think of some other important details that you haven't revealed yet.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 05:43:14 PM »
Very nice info from your experiments Ryan. thanks,
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline FredFlin

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Re: Cracker Style for busy shop
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 06:43:50 PM »
First not talking about not using yeast, I too do not want go yeast less. I'm after, lighter crispy, base that cracks when you cut it very similar to what I had in my photograph a short while back and if I understand what you are saying more crisp not crunch.

About the mixing it really is just that 12,5 kgs flour, 5 liters of water... We also of course add the mysterious spice pack I spoke about in my earlier post which contains yeast, salt and whatever else our franchisor feels like they would like to add. ( I will find out soon). I've never weighed the water, was taught at school 1L of water = 1kg. I'm obviously doing my calculation differently to work out the hydration, I was simply dividing 5 by 12,5 x 100= 40 I guess that's wrong

(FYI: In my earlier post when I said the dough was sticky that was after 12 hours rising time not after mixing)which I translated into to much water?

Quote
hydration is not the only factor that determines a doughs potential to crisp and crunch......


So maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree... I'm not after crunchy like a biscuit, definitely crispy and thin, flaky is not the right word but more on those lines, cracker ie cracks when cut, shatters almost....

I've found the higher the hydration the more bread like the base became and getting thin and crispy very difficult. The less hydration the more crisp, like the blow hole in my picture, i liked that. But too little hydration became biscuit like crunch, hard heavy and crunchy not light.




« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:50:40 PM by FredFlin »