Author Topic: First try at Sicilian  (Read 494 times)

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Offline GlobalTJB

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First try at Sicilian
« on: July 03, 2015, 08:34:32 PM »
Up until today, I had only made neapolitan pizza with a modified version of this recipe http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/001199.html which tasted pretty close to what my grandmother made growing up.  I added some ingredients to the dough to make it taste like I remember.  After a several year hiatus I logged back into the site and finally made my intro post and began reading up on Sicilian pizza specifically Norma's quest for Buddy's Detroit recipe. 

After seeing that a proper pan was needed and knowing that I don't like Aluminum or pans with coating, I wound up purchasing the Paderno World Cuisine 19 5/8" by 13 3/4" Blue Steel Baking Sheet from Amazon.com.  When I first got it, it had this nasty sticky coating on it, so I decided to wash it off with hot soapy water and season it.  A few weeks back, I had made a batch of lard form leftover fat from pork butts.  I heated up the oven to 450, put the pan in for a few minutes and smeared a layer of lard on it.  I lined the bottom cooking rack with commercial tin foil and put the pan in upside down for an hour.  Repeat this 6 times and I was comfortable that the pan would not stick.

With that out of the way, I knew I would have company today and decided to go with this recipe which I used the calculator to expand out to fit my slightly larger pan http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg218034#msg218034.  Instead of instant yeast, I used active dry yeast.  I poured the water and yeast in the kitchenaid mixing bowl and let the yeast bloom for 15 min.  Afterwards, I added in 2T of olive oil and 1t of sugar and ran it in the mixer with dough hook fr about 8 minutes until the dough stopped sticking to the sides and climbed the hook.  I removed the dough from the hook, placed it in a oiled pyrex 4qt bowl and did a 2 day cold ferment in the fridge. 


1/2 hour prior to cooking the pie, I took the dough out and placed it in the baking sheet.  I picked 425 degrees at the baking temperature and after stretching the dough out, letting it rest 15 min and stretching it again, I put some sauce on it, and placed it in the oven for a 15 minute par-bake.

I checked on it after 10 minutes and noted that the crust started to cook nicely, didn't stick and the dough rose to a nice height. 

After another 5 minutes I pulled the dough and dressed it up for a 25 minute bake.  I topped it with 50/50 low moisture mozzarella and provolone cheese, home made sauce from uncooked crushed tomatoes and a mix of pepperoni and mushrooms.

After 15 minutes, I checked the pie and saw a bit more liquid than I would have liked, so I put it back in for another 8 minutes before adding a light layer of more 50/50 cheese.  After adding the cheese, I cooked it an additional 5 minutes and then pulled it, and let it rest while we ate our salads.

When I started cutting it into 12 slices, I was happy when the crust made a cracking sound but as I cut further, the pie was too mushy for my tastes.  My guests liked the pizza but that thin layer of uncooked/soggy dough disappointed me.

I give the pizza a 7 out of 10 but to make it a 10/10 I was thinking of changing the following variables:
-par-bake duration
-baking temperature
-removing the pie form the pan half way and finishing it on the fibrament stone
-make the sauce with whole canned cento tomatoes, pull them apart by hand, and use the reserved liquid elsewhere.


Any tips or advice is greatly appreciated.  The corner slices came out almost perfect but as you went to the middle edge pieces or the crustless ones the sogginess was readily apparent.

Here are some pics

After Par-baking/seasoning worked
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/7DrC7M.jpg)

Dressing the pie
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/XEpN8G.jpg)

a little more sauce
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/dUAH6v.jpg)

final cheese addition
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/KTU9Ys.jpg)

Cutting it in half so it fit on the cutting board.  Each half yielded 6 slices

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/905/CGCxua.jpg)

The bottom of the corner and the post cook pan after 6 coatings and a 7th from the oiled pie cooking on it

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/jcrZGQ.jpg)

Corner Slice Side Shot
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/s5481Z.jpg)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/913/ue4eLj.jpg)

Corner Slice Bottom after remembering to take a pic

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/0ZIvEz.jpg)



the exact recipe was

Flour 100% 520.4 g
Water 70% 364.28G
ADY .60369% 3.14g
Salt 2.2373% 11.64G
Sugar 1t
Olive Oil 2T





« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 08:59:11 PM by GlobalTJB »


Offline GlobalTJB

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 08:40:06 PM »
I guess you can't embed images.

Online norma427

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 11:27:25 PM »
GlobalTJB,

I reoriented your misoriented photos.

Peter and I have been asking members to use the photo test thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33199.msg328718#msg328718 to test photos if in doubt as to whether they will show up properly on the forum. The forum's software cannot tell whether a photo is properly oriented.

For your additional information, members can fix misoriented photos themselves but it has to be done within one day of posting.

I could click on your links to your photos in your first post, but it isn't a good idea to embed photos because they can be lost from dead links sometimes.

Norma

Offline GlobalTJB

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 09:38:42 AM »
GlobalTJB,

I reoriented your misoriented photos.

Peter and I have been asking members to use the photo test thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33199.msg328718#msg328718 to test photos if in doubt as to whether they will show up properly on the forum. The forum's software cannot tell whether a photo is properly oriented.

For your additional information, members can fix misoriented photos themselves but it has to be done within one day of posting.

I could click on your links to your photos in your first post, but it isn't a good idea to embed photos because they can be lost from dead links sometimes.

Norma
Norma

thank you for the response about the photo test area.  I will keep that in mind in the future when I post pictures.
My pizza shrunk after parbaking causing a gap around the sides of the pan so there was no contact.  What is the best way to keep it from retracting?  I pushed it into the corners but it kept sliding back.
thanks

Offline David Esq.

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 09:50:58 AM »
If resting and stretching isn't working then it may just be you need more dough to fill out the pan.  But, if you think you have enough dough then try a little longer rest and maybe a little more olive oil to help push it out.

Probably the first thing to do is to try picking it up and letting gravity stretch it longer than you did the first time.

Online mitchjg

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 11:19:41 AM »
GlobalTJB:

Regarding stretching it out more, I generally stretch it out, then rest for 15 minutes.  Stretch it out again by gently pushing down all over the place and pushing the dough towards the corners.  Wait another 15 minutes and push it out again, etc.  I have found that, with my non-stick pans, the dough does not like to stick and retracts a bit.  The other thing is you can wait longer and let the dough rise longer before baking.  It looks like you let it rest 15 minutes, stretched and then immediately started baking.  I wait much longer, as long as 2 hours or more, letting the dough rise (and expand) in the pan.

 I would suggest you read this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31228.0
MaryAnn is one of our top pizza bakers and she makes awesome looking Sicilian pies.  She provides detailed instructions. 

In reading your post, I think your complaint is about sogginess in the center.  And, your cooking time was way too long.  If I tracked your notes correctly, you baked for a total of 43 minutes at 425.  You will see MaryAnn baked for a total of 22 minutes at 500.  Tony Gemignani (famous pizza guy and author of the "Pizza Bible") bakes for a total of 27 minutes at 450.

You said you sauce it and then parbake.  Perhaps you put on too much sauce.  I think (too much) sauce and a slower bake can easily make the pie soggy.  An alternative is also to parbake for awhile before putting anything at all on the pie.  This give everything a chance to firm up, including the top.  This is how Tony Gemignani says to do it in his Sicilian pie recipe (and this guy knows a lot!!!!).

So, my suggestions are:

1 let the dough rise in the pan longer before it goes in the oven.  Stretch, wait, stretch, wait, wait, wait, wait (as long as 2 hours). 
2. Bake at a higher temperature - minimum 450
3 Top with less sauce when parbaking or no sauce at all.

Good luck

Mitch

Offline GlobalTJB

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 12:28:34 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  I am not sure how I came up with the 425 degrees but my oven can get to 550 and at that temp the stone is around 575 or so.  It can break 600 with the broiler on, but I will go with 500.  I think the lower temp is what made the bake time that long. 

I am going to make another of these Friday for dinner so I think the first variable I will change is the bake temperature to 500 and go from there.   I will also parbake without the sauce.  I figured the weight of the sauce would "hold the pie" in place to keep it from retracting away from the edge.  The pan was nice and slick with Olive Oil so a lack of oil isnt the issue.  The skin was not totally baked when i pulled it to top the pie which might be the source of this.  From watching Frank Gianquinto videos, he bakes the shell completely for around 10 minutes in the mornings and puts them in for another 15 minutes once topped with sauce, cheese, and toppings.

I watched MaryAnne's video and my bake time should be slightly longer, in the 25 minute range due to the increased volume and surface area of the pan I am using.

I think the tips on waiting longer for the dough to wake up after stretching will hep too as I feel there was plenty of dough for the size of the pan.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 12:30:52 PM by GlobalTJB »

Online mitchjg

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 12:52:22 PM »
One thing is that you should not feel that you need to go that high on the temperature.  Sicilian pies are thick, so a high heat, very short bake can cause the outside to be done while the inside is not.

Keep it at 500 or lower.  But, I think you are on a good track!
Mitch

Offline hotsawce

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Re: First try at Sicilian
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2015, 04:35:10 PM »
Pretty nice crumb on that pie!

Based on my favorite sicilians in NY, I would max out your oven at 550 and cook it hot in the steel pan. Prince street, which makes one of my favorite slices, bakes for about 12 minutes in the pan and pops the pie out to crisp on the deck for another couple minutes. I've seen this done at Williamsburg pizza also. Dom Demarco of DiFara parbakes before the final bake, but this likely helps him achieve a crisp bottom as well. They all cook for about 15 minutes tops.