Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[Serpentelli]

Norma,

Your DS pies look like delectable pillows of air covered with lovingly applied layers of kindness and goodness.

My DS pies look like grease-laden auto repair rags with molten goo plopped on "just because". Keep up the quest!! Looks awesome!

John K

[norma427]

Norma,

Your DS pies look like delectable pillows of air covered with lovingly applied layers of kindness and goodness.

My DS pies look like grease-laden auto repair rags with molten goo plopped on "just because". Keep up the quest!! Looks awesome!

John K

John,

Thanks for your kind comments.  I think your Detroit style pizzas look very good.  I had to laugh when you posted about the grease-laden auto repair rags.  My dad used to have loads of tools in some kind of filing cabinets, that were over about a 30 ft. space in our garage.  I know he had some of those auto parts pans to hold some of those tools.  I know how greasy some of his tools were, but he knew exactly where to find each tool.  I had to go though drawers after drawer to find what I was looking for.  Your post gave me great memories of my dad.   

Norma

[norma427]

Via 313 makes it on the 21 Hottest Pizzerias in the Area Now.  http://eater.com/archives/2013/02/27/pizza-map-february-2013.php 

Congrats to them! 

I see Pizza Brain is also on the list. 

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

Are you suggesting I should try a higher hydration for a Detroit style dough from Sub’s post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23668.msg240351.html#msg240351 using Sub’s method and what you might be suggesting at Reply 5 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23668.msg240378.html#msg240378 I don’t think I could go to 100% hydration in a Detroit style dough.  I agree with John’s post at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23668.msg240379.html#msg240379

I did do a 80% hydration dough in a pan at Reply 244 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122397.html#msg122397 with the formulation I used at Reply 248 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122436.html#msg122436  but then not a lot of toppings were added.  I also tried a high hydration dough at Reply 188 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg121524.html#msg121524 If you look in the fifth picture down that I posted that dough wanted to almost turn into a dripping batter again, even after it did look mixed enough before that picture.  I posted at Reply 190 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg121545.html#msg121545 that I didn’t know how high that dough hydration was, but I know by just looking at what I posted back then it was high.  I really don’t think I have gained enough skills to use a 100% hydration dough. 

If you want me to try a higher hydration than 75% for a Detroit style dough let me know what you want me to try.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I was basically thinking out loud. I know from my own experience with my standard electric home oven that I had problems getting good oven spring with a very highly hydrated dough, and especially if the thickness factor was high, the pizza size was above about 10"-12", and a lot of cheese and toppings were to be used. In the latter instance, even a low thickness factor value was not a great help. All of this was asking too much out of my oven. Nonetheless, I still wondered whether using a pan with a properly tempered/proofed and risen dough and with a high enough oven temperature you could still get good oven spring without pre-baking the dough. My gut is that there is a crossover point where the height of the finished crust starts to drop. I just don't know where that crossover point is hydration-wise. In your case, it perhaps isn't practical for you to use a pre-bake at market for your Detroit style pizzas. I'm sure it can be done but it adds another step to the process.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I was basically thinking out loud. I know from my own experience with my standard electric home oven that I had problems getting good oven spring with a very highly hydrated dough, and especially if the thickness factor was high, the pizza size was above about 10"-12", and a lot of cheese and toppings were to be used. In the latter instance, even a low thickness factor value was not a great help. All of this was asking too much out of my oven. Nonetheless, I still wondered whether using a pan with a properly tempered/proofed and risen dough and with a high enough oven temperature you could still get good oven spring without pre-baking the dough. My gut is that there is a crossover point where the height of the finished crust starts to drop. I just don't know where that crossover point is hydration-wise. In your case, it perhaps isn't practical for you to use a pre-bake at market for your Detroit style pizzas. I'm sure it can be done but it adds another step to the process.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you were basically thinking out loud.  I have experimented on the thread referenced in my last post and on the Pizzarium thread with higher hydration doughs, but also wonder what the crossover point is (in a higher hydration than 75%) in not having to do the pre-bake first and the dough being able to hold the toppings such as are used on a Detroit style pizza.  If you have a hydration (above 75%) in mind for me to try I could even try it in my home oven maybe this weekend.  I am willing to give it a go.

Thanks for telling me of your experiences using very highly hydrated doughs in your home oven.

Norma

[norma427]

I think in foolishpoolish (Toby’s) post at Reply 1 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12651.msg121348.html#msg121348 and other posts and videos in that thread do help with high hydration dough.  Matt also posts in that thread about his high hydration doughs at Reply 18 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12651.msg121430.html#msg121430  Matt said in that post that you basically need to turn a batter into a dough using the double hydration method.  Toby’s post at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12651.msg121361.html#msg121361  with his pictures of Pizza Bianca with 80% hydration and using baker’s yeast sure looks good.

I really don’t think a hydration of more than 80% would work out for a Detroit Style pizza.  Maybe even a little lower than 80% hydration.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I have experimented on the thread referenced in my last post and on the Pizzarium thread with higher hydration doughs, but also wonder what the crossover point is (in a higher hydration than 75%) in not having to do the pre-bake first and the dough being able to hold the toppings such as are used on a Detroit style pizza.  If you have a hydration (above 75%) in mind for me to try I could even try it in my home oven maybe this weekend.  I am willing to give it a go.

Norma,

Since you will be using mechanical mixing and also a rest period, I think I would give 85% hydration a try, to see if that is anywhere near a crossover point.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Since you will be using mechanical mixing and also a rest period, I think I would give 85% hydration a try, to see if that is anywhere near a crossover point.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting 85% hydration to see if that is anywhere near a crossover point with mechanical mixing and a rest period.  I have a feeling it won't work for me, but will give it a try.

Norma

[Skee]

Thanks for suggesting 85% hydration to see if that is anywhere near a crossover point with mechanical mixing and a rest period.  I have a feeling it won't work for me, but will give it a try.

I'm curious too - with limited experimentation at hydrations above 75%, I think you will have to par-bake the crust for ~10 minutes with at least the cheddar on the edge (and maybe some part of the rest of the cheese) to be able to get any spring out of it, then finish dressing and bake another ~10 minutes.  Seems like a real pain in a commercial application if you're doing more than a couple pans at a time.

[norma427]

I'm curious too - with limited experimentation at hydrations above 75%, I think you will have to par-bake the crust for ~10 minutes with at least the cheddar on the edge (and maybe some part of the rest of the cheese) to be able to get any spring out of it, then finish dressing and bake another ~10 minutes.  Seems like a real pain in a commercial application if you're doing more than a couple pans at a time.

Britt,

I am curious too what will happen with a 85% hydration dough with toppings applied.  I could see it working if the dough was par-baked first, but that is not the way I am going to try it.  I am going to try to see if I can develop enough gluten in the dough with 2 intensive mixes and a rest period in-between.  I am also going to try cold water.  I did some experiments with higher hydrations doughs (in a pan), but not all of them were not successful. 

I could see how it could be a real pain in a commercial operation if the dough needed par-baked first.

Norma

[gschwim]

Britt,

I am curious too what will happen with a 85% hydration dough with toppings applied.  I could see it working if the dough was par-baked first, but that is not the way I am going to try it.  I am going to try to see if I can develop enough gluten in the dough with 2 intensive mixes and a rest period in-between.  I am also going to try cold water.  I did some experiments with higher hydrations doughs (in a pan), but not all of them were not successful. 

I could see how it could be a real pain in a commercial operation if the dough needed par-baked first.

Norma

Norma,

I was actually wondering whether par-baking could be a good thing in a commercial setting.  Instead of letting "raw" dough sit in several pans, par-bake a crust in each pan, take the crust out and stack it, perhaps even put it back in the refrigerator.  When someone orders a pie, take a par-baked crust, slip it back into the pan, top it and bake it.

The point being, you could have "naked" crusts that hold their shape stacked up and then you would need fewer pans.

Gene

[norma427]

Norma,

I was actually wondering whether par-baking could be a good thing in a commercial setting.  Instead of letting "raw" dough sit in several pans, par-bake a crust in each pan, take the crust out and stack it, perhaps even put it back in the refrigerator.  When someone orders a pie, take a par-baked crust, slip it back into the pan, top it and bake it.

The point being, you could have "naked" crusts that hold their shape stacked up and then you would need fewer pans.

Gene

Gene,

I would think in some cases doing a par-bake or per-bake can be a good thing.  I still get par-bake or pre-bake mixed-up in what those terms mean.  I can’t recall right now, but think there is a Detroit style pizza business that does par-bake their dough first, but don’t know if they do that so the crumb doesn’t fall after the toppings are added, or if they stack the pans with the par-baked doughs for later use.

Tom Lehmann posted on PMQ Think Tank about per-bake different times.  This is one for deep pan bases.  http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13574&p=83737&hilit=par+bake+dough+in+a+pan#p83737   I am sure there are also other good articles from Tom Lehmann over at PMQ Think Tank about per-bake but I have to many problems searching there to find them.

Really I don’t want to add another step to the process since I am already making other styles of pizzas, but maybe it could work out for you if you decide to go into the business of making Detroit style pizzas.  I think I have found out I don’t need any extra pans than I already have.  I tried some dough balls that were in plastic bags and then put them into the empty steel pans and they seemed to work out well so far.

Norma

[norma427]

I forgot to post about this after Tuesday, but I did temper a Greek style dough in a pan to see how it would act if I put it back into the deli case for later use.  It was tempered in the Hatco Unit and then put into the deli case to be used later when I needed another Greek style pizza.  I was surprised when I took it out of the deli case to add dressings and do the bake.  I sure don’t know why, but the dough that looked nicely tempered had gone back to what looked liked not much tempering was done.  I would think the same thing would happen with tempered Detroit style doughs, but since I didn’t try any of them the same way I am not sure of what would happen.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I was actually wondering whether par-baking could be a good thing in a commercial setting.  Instead of letting "raw" dough sit in several pans, par-bake a crust in each pan, take the crust out and stack it, perhaps even put it back in the refrigerator.  When someone orders a pie, take a par-baked crust, slip it back into the pan, top it and bake it.

The point being, you could have "naked" crusts that hold their shape stacked up and then you would need fewer pans.

Gene,

What you are proposing is something that a place called Klausie's Pizza Truck does in the Raleigh, NC area. They actually have what might be called a thrice baked pizza. They start by pre-baking (or par-baking, if you prefer) the crust, and they then add the cheese and bake the pizza again. Finally, they add the sauce and toppings and bake for a third time. There is no reason why the baked crusts alone can't be set aside in advance so as not to be slammed when orders start to mount. I believe, but am not absolutely certain, that you can see a couple of baked crusts in the third photo of the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html. From that photo you can see some pans stacked with separators plus a cover here and there. You can also see a photo of a baked crust with what appears to be the cheese on it in the fifth photo in the article at http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/. The thrice bake method is also discussed in that article and also in the article at http://anotherdayinparadisewithdaveandlisa.blogspot.com/2012/01/pie-like-no-other-klausies-pizza.html?m=1. This last article also appears to be showing how the sauce is applied to the crust with the cheese already applied, in the photo at the bottom of the article.

I might add that the notion of double baking appears to have always been associated with the Detroit style, at least according to the description of that style at Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza. In my research, the only example of double baking that I saw was at Klausie's. I should also mention that there was recently a Grub Street writeup at http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2013/02/the-best-pizza-in-america.html#photo=63x00017 that mentioned double baking with respect to Buddy's pizzas. That prompted Norma to try to get clarification at the Buddy's Facebook page (at https://www.facebook.com/buddyspizza), but Buddy's never did answer Norma's questions. Since Buddy's uses conveyor ovens, it is hard to imagine how they would want to use the double bake method as part of their regular modus operandi.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I would think in some cases doing a par-bake or per-bake can be a good thing.  I still get par-bake or pre-bake mixed-up in what those terms mean.

Norma,

The terms pre-bake and par-bake are often used synonymously. However, I personally prefer to use the term pre-bake for a crust that it to be baked and then either dressed immediately thereafter or after a brief cooling. I use the term par-bake for crusts that are to be baked and then set aside in bags or other storage containers to be used later. The crusts can be stored at room temperature for short term use or in the refrigerator or freezer for longer term use. By drawing a distinction between pre-bake and par-bake, when I am reading my own posts I always know how the crust is to be used without having to read through a lot of material to learn which is which.

Interestingly, if you use the terms pre-bake and par-bake in their hyphenated form at the PMQ Think Tank search engine, it will not recognize those terms even though they might actually appear in posts (see, for example, the post you referenced earlier at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13574&p=83737&hilit=#p83737). The PMQTT search engine will recognize the terms prebake and parbake in unhyphenated form but it will not produce all of the posts that use the terms in their different forms. As you can see, just as with our forum, the PMQTT search engine has its own idiosyncrasies. This morning, when I did a search on our forum for the terms pre-bake and par-bake, I got 165 pages of hits, most of them inapplicable. When I used the terms prebake and parbake, I got 3 pages and 5 pages of hits, respectively. The lesson to take away from all this is to use multiple search terms, not just single words like pre-bake/prebake or par-bake/parbake. This approach won't always work, but your odds go up that you will get an answer.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I forgot to post about this after Tuesday, but I did temper a Greek style dough in a pan to see how it would act if I put it back into the deli case for later use.  It was tempered in the Hatco Unit and then put into the deli case to be used later when I needed another Greek style pizza.  I was surprised when I took it out of the deli case to add dressings and do the bake.  I sure don’t know why, but the dough that looked nicely tempered had gone back to what looked liked not much tempering was done.  I would think the same thing would happen with tempered Detroit style doughs, but since I didn’t try any of them the same way I am not sure of what would happen.

Norma,

Since warming up a dough will cause it to expand, cooling the dough will cause it to contract. The degree to which this happens is likely to be direclty related to the degree of openness and airiness of the dough. The more open and airy the dough, the greater the contraction (or collapse).

If there is still enough yeast left in the dough to permit another rise, letting the dough warm up again should allow it to rise again. Of course, it will take time for that to happen and in some cases you might not get the dough back to the exact point before it was refrigerated.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Since warming up a dough will cause it to expand, cooling the dough will cause it to contract. The degree to which this happens is likely to be direclty related to the degree of openness and airiness of the dough. The more open and airy the dough, the greater the contraction (or collapse).

If there is still enough yeast left in the dough to permit another rise, letting the dough warm up again should allow it to rise again. Of course, it will take time for that to happen and in some cases you might not get the dough back to the exact point before it was refrigerated.

Peter

Peter,

At the time when I tempered the Greek style pizza, and put it back into the deli case and then removed it again, I didn’t think about when warming the dough is what made it expand and then cooling the dough would cause it to contract.  That makes sense though what you posted.  I guess then the Buddy’s clone doughs would contract more when placed back in the deli case after tempering since they are more open and airy after they are tempered.  I think I should scrap that idea of trying to temper Buddy’s clone doughs and then putting them in the deli case for later use.  It was interesting to me what happened though with the Greek style dough.  I guess that is how stuff is learned by just trying something.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,
It may sound like an extra step but wouldn't it actually be more convenient to par-bake crusts and always be able to have something that is ready to go at any given time? The par-baking can be done at your pace...heck, they could even be done at home and then(in Norma's case)be brought to market all ready to go?  Just a thought....

[Pete-zza]

It may sound like an extra step but wouldn't it actually be more convenient to par-bake crusts and always be able to have something that is ready to go at any given time? The par-baking can be done at your pace...heck, they could even be done at home and then(in Norma's case)be brought to market all ready to go?  Just a thought....

Bob,

Apart from the fact that, at least in Norma's case, she has already said that she does not want to introduce another step in the Detroit style pizza making process, there is at least one other problem that I envision. And it is the fact that I have never seen a par-baked crust with a hydration of 75%. By par-baked, I mean crusts that are made for longer term use, maybe even days after being made and stored somewhere. Most par-baked crusts that I have seen have been for thin pizzas, such as cracker style or NY style. I also wonder how a par-baked Detroit style crust would go over with customers after being stored for some time. I am thinking in terms of freshness and tenderness and airiness, all of which are critical to the success of the Detroit style pizza in my opinion. I can see making a few pre-baked crusts and setting them aside to fulfill orders more quickly, as it appears that Klausie's does, but even then I would want to be sure that the quality of the end product is not compromised in any way.

As for making par-baked crusts at home and bringing them to market in Norma's case, that would not be permitted. The rules and regulations at market require that everything that is sold at market be completely made at market.

Peter