Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 166915 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gschwim

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 386
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1760 on: April 06, 2013, 03:55:48 PM »
Gene,

Actually, the certification document reads as follows regarding the ovens:

Deck Oven Baking: Authentic Detroit Style Pizza must be baked in a deck oven or other approved oven.

If conveyor ovens would be approved, then the two types of ovens would cover pretty much the entire range of ovens in use. Maybe the remaining oven types would be wood- or coal-fired or gas-assisted ovens. I am not sure that commercial owners of such ovens would want to run them at the lower temperatures used for the Detroit style pizza.

Peter

If the crust comes out right, who cares what oven it was baked in?

Personally, as much as I'm from Detroit and love DS pizza, I find the idea of a certification for the style a bit silly.  At least in my own experience, the only problem I've encountered is cheese sticking to the side of the pan after I take the pizza out.  But the pizza itself is fine and I've found the recipe to be pretty forgiving and easy to master.

On second thought, maybe I should reconsider the idea of certification, but add a requirement, similar to the one for President of the United States, that the person making the pizza must be a native-born Detroiter...  :^)

Gene


Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11390
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1761 on: April 06, 2013, 04:06:14 PM »
Jeff,

I'm pretty sure that one of our members confirmed that the pans in question were from Dover. However, last August a member informed me via PM that he had sent an email to Bucket Outlet in which he referenced the A30402 and A30403 pans and in which he asked if the oxide coating was safe, whether it would leach into food, whether it would wash off, whether using a knife with the pan would liberate the coating and attach itself to food, and if the coating was stable at a bake temperature of 550 degrees F.

The reply from Bucket Outlet was as follows:

Not recommended for cooking and are not food safe.

I am pretty certain that the pans were the same ones everyone was using at the time.

Peter
Then why was he worried about it.... ::)

Bucket Outlet has to say that.... ;)   ::)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline gschwim

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 386
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1762 on: April 06, 2013, 04:10:34 PM »
I couldn't disagree more.  The biggest issue with VPN in my opinion is that they did not create an oven requirement.  It is one thing for an oven to create one pizza that meets certification, and another thing for it to do it all day every day in a commercial environment.  This is exactly why we have so much subpar VPN pizza cooked in subpar ovens in this country.  For that reason and a few others I personally consider VPN a worthless gimmick that in no way guarantees quality.

See the VPN guidelines, translated from the Italian, here:  http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html

Here's the rule on ovens (italics mine):

"The Method

"Pizza Napoletana" is a food preparation made from a base of risen dough and cooked in a wood fire oven.  The product is characterized both by the ingredient, means and technologies of production."

And as you can see here, they don't content themselves with specifying the overall oven temperature, but for the floor and dome, individually.  They also specify precise temperatures for the individual ingredients:  dough, tomatoes, oil and mozzarella:

The following temperature guidelines should be followed:

Cooking surface temperature: 800ļF about.

Oven dome temperature:800ļF about.

Temperature reached by the dough: 60-65C.

Temperature reached by the tomatoes: 75-80C.

Temperature reached by the oil: 75-85C.

Temperature reached from the mozzarella: 65-7C.

But getting back to the "oven requirement," VPN does promulgate one and it's very specific.  As the Forno Bravo Web site states (http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_guideline.html):

"Pizza Napoletana must be cooked in a wood-fired dome oven. Gas, coal or electric ovens, while capable of produce wonderful pizza, do not conform to the Pizza Napoletana tradition."

The problem, if I understand you correctly, is not a lack of guidelines, but some pizzerias, either deliberately or out of ignorance, are calling their pizzas "Neopolitan" when they're not.

Gene




Offline gschwim

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 386
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1763 on: April 06, 2013, 04:14:02 PM »
Then why was he worried about it.... ::)

Bucket Outlet has to say that.... ;)   ::)

The original blue steel pans probably are not designated food safe, too, as they're designed for and intended to be use as industrial metal parts trays.  In any case, I ordered a pan from Bucket Outlet.  They're identical to the blue steel pans in size, shape, folded corners, etc., but they are cold rolled steel, not blue steel, with no coating that I could see.

Gene

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13235
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1764 on: April 06, 2013, 04:59:53 PM »
See the VPN guidelines, translated from the Italian, here:  http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html

Here's the rule on ovens (italics mine):

"The Method

"Pizza Napoletana" is a food preparation made from a base of risen dough and cooked in a wood fire oven.  The product is characterized both by the ingredient, means and technologies of production."

And as you can see here, they don't content themselves with specifying the overall oven temperature, but for the floor and dome, individually.  They also specify precise temperatures for the individual ingredients:  dough, tomatoes, oil and mozzarella:

The following temperature guidelines should be followed:

Cooking surface temperature: 800ļF about.

Oven dome temperature:800ļF about.

About 10 lines above that, they write "The cooking of the "Pizza Napoletana STG" must be done exclusively in a wood fire oven which has reached the cooking temperature of 485C, (905F), which is essential to cook the Pizza Napoletana." I'm not sure how the two square up.

In any case, Jeff does make a good point. 800F in a low dome is not the same thing as 800F in a high dome. Nor is a flat dome the same as an arched dome. Lower, flatter domes have a higher view factor and that translates directly to more energy on the pie. Mass, door size, chimney area, etc. also effect performance.

My point in Reply #1754 above is not that the oven shouldn't have been better defined in the VPN standard but rather that it is less a factor with DS. Radiated energy varies directly with the 4th power of temperature (StefanĖBoltzmann law). NP temps are on the order of 2X DS temps, so youíre talking about managing 16X the radiant energy when baking NP Ė accordingly, it stands to reason that oven design is much more critical for NP. There is ample margin of error in DS; there is almost none in NP.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22637
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1765 on: April 06, 2013, 05:35:38 PM »
If Bucket Outletís steel pans arenít food safe, I really wonder if any of mine are food safe.  The steel pans I purchased first were from Northern Pizza Equipment http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.msg160865.html#msg160865  They were the ones I had to season.  I just mentioned to Steve last week after wiping out a few of my steel pans, no matter how much I wipe them out, there is still what seems like some kind of something that gets on the paper towels.  I wonder what that stuff is.  I never wash the ones at market, but did wash the one at home when I made Craigís Detroit style butter, sugar and cinnamon pizza.  That one didnít show anything on my dish towel after soaking and washing.  Steve told me not to worry about that stuff that keeps wiping off on all my steel pans.

Does anyone know why Bucket Outletís steel pans wouldnít be food safe and my steel pans from two different places would be okay?  My steel pans donít seem any different in any way, except the one I purchased from http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/  were seasoned.  They both do the same thing when wiping them out and they both scratch on the sides from using metal spatulas to get the cheese loose.  I saw the same scratches on Buddyís pan one time before on this thread somewhere (when a picture was referenced). 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1766 on: April 06, 2013, 06:02:35 PM »
Norma,

It could have been that the Bucket Outlet employee had no idea that the Dover pans were being used to make pizzas, and since the pans were intended to hold metal parts and the like, I can see how the reaction of the employee would be to discourage use of the pans for food applications, even though the pans have been used for many years to make pizzas. As you may know from Jeff's recent post at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg245980.html#msg245980, the FDA has stepped in and apparently is no longer allowing the blue steel pans to be used for food applications. I don't know it that is a prospective or retroactive action, or whether that ruling was even in effect at the time that the Bucket Outlet employee rendered her verdict.

Peter

Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11390
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1767 on: April 06, 2013, 06:12:11 PM »
So the guy with the 3 grand phoney baloney certification is selling "outlaw" pans... ???
This is awesome!!  8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1768 on: April 06, 2013, 06:19:22 PM »
So the guy with the 3 grand phoney baloney certification is selling "outlaw" pans... ???
This is awesome!!  8)
Bob,

I don't believe that Shawn is selling the old blue steel pans. I think he is seasoning and selling the new pans.

Peter

Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11390
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1769 on: April 06, 2013, 06:23:05 PM »
Bob,

I don't believe that Shawn is selling the old blue steel pans. I think he is seasoning and selling the new pans.

Peter
Ok great...that is exactly what I would do too. I hope the pans don't need to be "certified"   :)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1770 on: April 06, 2013, 06:28:31 PM »
I had forgotten that I had called Bucket Outlet on their blue steel pans, but as noted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137295/topicseen.html#msg137295, I was told at the time (April, 2011) that the pans were indeed from Dover. That post also confirmed that Dover was selling the pans to just about everyone in the Detroit deep dish business.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 06:31:41 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13235
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1771 on: April 06, 2013, 06:51:12 PM »
Does anyone know why Bucket Outletís steel pans wouldnít be food safe

I  don't know why they wouldn't be safe - particularly if you seasoned it. Bucket Outlet says it has a "heavy, oxide coating." The question is what does that mean. I can't think of what it might be that would be toxic. All I can tell is that it is not dark and apparently not very thick as Gene couldn't discern it.  It might be zinc oxide. If so, the FDR classifies that as safe. If ti was galvanized, Gene would have noticed. My guess is that the coating is hematite - another form of iron oxide that is part of mill scale and can be silvery-grey in color. If someone is really worried about it, they should call and ask what is on the pans.

I don't know why real black steel pans would be a problem either. Hot black steel is simply steel with the surface converted to magnetite (iron oxide) which is non-toxic. Perhaps because fake (cold) black oxide has selenium which can be toxic and comes off easily?

As Bob commented, I think it would be incredibly stupid for Bucket outlet to say the pans are food safe even if they are safe. They said exactly what I would expect them to say when asked.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22637
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1772 on: April 06, 2013, 06:56:51 PM »
Peter and Craig,

Thanks to both of you for the links and answers.  I wonder if Buddyís and other older Detroit pizzerias are still using the older steel pans.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22637
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1773 on: April 06, 2013, 06:59:10 PM »
Another Detroit native, Michael Spurlock of Loui Louiís with five partners is bringing the first Detroit-style pizzas to Louisville in April.  http://insiderlouisville.com/news/2013/02/25/loui-louis-bringing-first-detroit-style-pizza-to-louisville-in-april/   

I am not sure who quoted how a Detroit style pizza is made in the article or the bake time, but this is what is written. 

"Detroit-style pizza starts with a heavy, pressed steel rectangular pan thatís well oiled. A thick (but once baked), light and chewy dough, is pressed into the pan and allowed to rise to about double its volume. Itís then pressed down again, sauced, cheesed, topped and often dolloped with additional sauce. During the 30-minute bake, the oil in the pan shallow fries the doughís exterior crisply to give it an appealing nuttiness".

That method isn't like mine.

I can't find a direct link to Loui Loui's.


Norma
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 08:30:55 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1774 on: April 06, 2013, 07:10:02 PM »
Norma,

I'm not sure whether what you quoted was by Shawn or the person who wrote the article, but a 30-minute bake time seems like a lot to me. 

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22637
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1775 on: April 06, 2013, 07:46:31 PM »
Norma,

I'm not sure whether what you quoted was by Shawn or the person who wrote the article, but a 30-minute bake time seems like a lot to me. 

Peter

Peter,

I am not sure whether what I quoted was from Shawn or the person who wrote the article either, but a 30 minute bake seems a lot to me too.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 08:54:29 PM by Pete-zza »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22637
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1776 on: April 06, 2013, 08:45:13 PM »
This is Loui Louiís facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/LouiLouisAuthenticDetroitStylePizza?fref=ts

If the photos posted are looked at, it can be seen how the steel pans are stacked and covered.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1162
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1777 on: April 06, 2013, 10:44:13 PM »
Here is a link to Cloverleaf's menu:
http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/menu.htm

This is identical to the menu in the restaurant. You will see that they specify a 25 minute bake time.  It shows in their finished product, it is much more evenly browned and crisp with very little if any gum line.  It is something I certainly plan to emulate when I start trying to make my idea of the perfect Detroit style pizza very shortly.

I would love to continue the conversation about VPN and oven requirements, but don't want to take this thread too far off topic so it will have to wait for another time and place.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 10:46:13 PM by shuboyje »
-Jeff

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22637
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1778 on: April 06, 2013, 11:35:56 PM »
Here is a link to Cloverleaf's menu:
http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/menu.htm

This is identical to the menu in the restaurant. You will see that they specify a 25 minute bake time.  It shows in their finished product, it is much more evenly browned and crisp with very little if any gum line.  It is something I certainly plan to emulate when I start trying to make my idea of the perfect Detroit style pizza very shortly.

I would love to continue the conversation about VPN and oven requirements, but don't want to take this thread too far off topic so it will have to wait for another time and place.

Jeff,

Thanks so much for posting the link to Cloveleafís menu and their bake time.  ;) I am glad you are posting about other Detroit style pizzas other than Buddyís.  Since you have tried other Detroit style pizzas you sure do know what you are talking about.  I find that interesting that the bake time is so long and that is why the bottom crust is much more evenly browned and their isnít much of any gum line. 

I look forward to when you start your thread on making your idea of the perfect Detroit style pizza.  I have a lot to learn. 

I donít care if you go off-topic on this thread, but maybe you might start you own thread on VPM and oven requirements.  That is also a subject I am interested in and am sure other members are too.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline gschwim

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 386
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1779 on: April 07, 2013, 12:21:45 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks so much for posting the link to Cloveleafís menu and their bake time.  ;) I am glad you are posting about other Detroit style pizzas other than Buddyís.  Since you have tried other Detroit style pizzas you sure do know what you are talking about.  I find that interesting that the bake time is so long and that is why the bottom crust is much more evenly browned and their isnít much of any gum line. 

I look forward to when you start your thread on making your idea of the perfect Detroit style pizza.  I have a lot to learn. 

I donít care if you go off-topic on this thread, but maybe you might start you own thread on VPM and oven requirements.  That is also a subject I am interested in and am sure other members are too.

Norma

Actually, now that I think of it, and after so many years, I could be wrong, but I do suddenly remember, at Buddy's, having to wait at least 20-25 minutes for a pizza.  On the other hand, that could have been because of orders taken ahead of mine.

But actually, it does make sense.  You don't need 500 degrees to fry something and the lower temperature would reduce the chances of burning the cheese.  Maybe it would even reduce the cheese's tendency to stick to the sides.

Think I'll try it.

Gene