Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 141389 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #260 on: November 10, 2012, 11:00:27 PM »
Norma,

I think this article, at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/, has been cited before on the forum, but it looks like Tony Gemignani played around with the Detroit-style pizza. I cite the article mainly for the mention of the Wisconsin brick cheese and white cheddar cheese combination. Another article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html, mentions mozzarella as the second cheese.

It looks like Tony's version uses a low protein flour.

Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313 studied under Tony: http://via313.com/about.

Peter


Peter,

I donít recall that I ever saw the article here on the forum about Tony Gemignani playing around with Detroit-style pizzas.  I wonder why the blog article and the article on Slice mention two different cheeses as the second cheese.  Those articles were interesting that you dug out.  It does look like Tony uses a low protein flour.  I never put two and two together that the Hunt brothers studied under Tony to learn how to make Detroit-style pizzas.  I did read the Hunt brothers studied under Tony, but wondered why he could help them make Detroit-styled pizzas.  How did you put that together, or did you know all that before?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #261 on: November 10, 2012, 11:10:05 PM »
If anyone is interested, these are the methods I used to mix the dough and about how long the dough balls fermented before using them. 

I wasnít sure of the percentage of IDY to use for a dough that was supposed to be made the same day and also trying to bake a Buddyís clone attempt the same day.

I just used what I had used in some of the formulations on this thread which was 0.60369 % IDY.  The other instructions and pictures of the dough and dough ball are at Reply 224 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222488.html#msg222488 and Reply 230 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222556.html#msg222556  The final dough temperature is in the first link.

I started the mixing by adding the Kosher salt to the warm water in the mixer bowl of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had added the IDY to the flour.  The flat beater was used first until all the dough was on the flat beater.  The I used a metal spoon to take the dough off of the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 15 minutes to let the water hydrate the flour more.  I then used the flat beater again.  After scraping the dough off of the flat beater again I changed over to the dough hook.  The dough was mixed for 6 minutes (on speed 1) and then rested again for 10 minutes.  I then mixed on speed 3 for 8 minutes.  The dough wasnít really sticky, but a little sticky.  I then lightly floured my kitchen table and scraped the dough (from the mixer bowl) onto the flour.  It can be seen in the link above what the dough looked like right out of the mixer bowl on my kitchen table.  The dough was then scaled into 3 pieces of dough.  The three pieces of dough were then balled with a little bit of flour and oiled with vegetable oil.  The dough balls then were put into plastic containers and the lid was put on.  They then sat out for 20 minutes to start the fermentation process at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough balls were finished at 11:00 AM.  The dough balls were then cold fermented until about 6:00 PM.

If I wasnít clear enough and anyone wants more information, just let me know.

Norma   
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #262 on: November 10, 2012, 11:54:23 PM »


If I wasnít clear enough and anyone wants more information, just let me know.

Norma   
Yes please Ms. Norma....this whole process is so confusing to me I think I need you to reiterate the whole deal from the beginning ....thanks.
Ha!...gottcha. :chef:  You have been doing an excellent job of describing all your steps and changes on this one Norma. Great,great work...thanks so much!
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #263 on: November 11, 2012, 08:55:10 AM »
I donít recall that I ever saw the article here on the forum about Tony Gemignani playing around with Detroit-style pizzas.  I wonder why the blog article and the article on Slice mention two different cheeses as the second cheese.  Those articles were interesting that you dug out.  It does look like Tony uses a low protein flour.  I never put two and two together that the Hunt brothers studied under Tony to learn how to make Detroit-style pizzas.  I did read the Hunt brothers studied under Tony, but wondered why he could help them make Detroit-styled pizzas.  How did you put that together, or did you know all that before?


Norma,

The Gemignani article at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/ was previously mentioned on the forum in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137340/topicseen.html#msg137340. The connection between the two Hunt boys and Tony either came from the Via 313 website, which I reviewed some time ago when they became members of the forum, or from one of my many searches on the Detroit style. I do not recall from my reading that the Hunt boys learned how to make the Detroit style from Tony. Since the Hunt boys came from the Detroit area and had grown up eating Detroit style pizza, I think that they could have shown Tony a thing or two about that style. Also, before the Hunt boys went out to study under Tony, they had already pretty much perfected their Detroit-style dough and pizza in Austin.

With respect to the two conflicting articles (the insidescoopsf.sfgate article and the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html), you will note that the insidescoopsf article is dated 4/25/11 and mentions the Wisconsin brick cheese and the white cheddar cheese, and that the Slice article is dated September 21, 2011 and mentions the Wisconsin cheddar cheese (maybe the white variety) and the mozzarella cheese. Somewhere between the two articles, Tony may have switched cheeses. If both articles are correct, there could have been several reasons for the switch. For example, it may have been because of customer preference (maybe consumers in the SF area are not used to Wisconsin brick cheese), availability (Wisconsin brick cheese is not widely known outside of the Midwest), cost (Wisconsin brick cheese is not cheap), or maybe Tony was just playing around with different possible cheese combinations.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 10:09:13 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #264 on: November 11, 2012, 09:30:11 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for referencing the post of yours here on the forum where you mentioned that Gemignani was starting to offer Detroit-style pizzas. 

I did a Google search this morning about Tony Gemignani and the Hunt boys and saw the Hunt boys did learn to make Detroit-style pizzas before they went to learn more about making different pizzas from Tony.  I also think the Hunt boys could show Tony a thing or two about making Detroit-style pizzas, since they have tasted and seen so many of them. 

Thanks also for explaining more about the conflicting articles. 

I have no idea of what other brick cheeses taste like other than Eddieís, but when I make Greek style pizzas with AMPI white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas, they really donít taste that much different to me then when using just the Eddieís brick cheese, or when using AMPI mild white cheddar and the Eddieís brick cheese like I did in my last attempt.  I really donít know what a real Buddyís pizza tastes like though in the cheese department, but with my experiences with blends I donít think regular people could really tell the difference no matter what is used.  At least that was the experience with my family, in that they thought the cheese I used for my last attempts was all mozzarella. 

I also am going to contact Great Lakes at some point in time and see if there are distributors in my area for Eddieís brick cheese.  I would be interested in knowing how much it costs a pound from a distributor.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #265 on: November 11, 2012, 09:31:56 AM »
Yes please Ms. Norma....this whole process is so confusing to me I think I need you to reiterate the whole deal from the beginning ....thanks.
Ha!...gottcha. :chef:  You have been doing an excellent job of describing all your steps and changes on this one Norma. Great,great work...thanks so much!


Bob,

Do you really understand what I did so far?  If not, I can explain again.  Are you planning on trying this style of pizza? 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #266 on: November 11, 2012, 09:55:30 AM »
I started the mixing by adding the Kosher salt to the warm water in the mixer bowl of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had added the IDY to the flour.  The flat beater was used first until all the dough was on the flat beater.  The I used a metal spoon to take the dough off of the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 15 minutes to let the water hydrate the flour more.  I then used the flat beater again.  After scraping the dough off of the flat beater again I changed over to the dough hook.  The dough was mixed for 6 minutes (on speed 1) and then rested again for 10 minutes.  I then mixed on speed 3 for 8 minutes.  The dough wasnít really sticky, but a little sticky.  I then lightly floured my kitchen table and scraped the dough (from the mixer bowl) onto the flour.  It can be seen in the link above what the dough looked like right out of the mixer bowl on my kitchen table.  The dough was then scaled into 3 pieces of dough.  The three pieces of dough were then balled with a little bit of flour and oiled with vegetable oil.  The dough balls then were put into plastic containers and the lid was put on.  They then sat out for 20 minutes to start the fermentation process at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough balls were finished at 11:00 AM.  The dough balls were then cold fermented until about 6:00 PM.

Norma,

For your next Buddy's clone experiment at market, do you intend to go through the above ritual (if it can even be done in the context of the rules that you have to follow at market, especially the cold fermentation part) or will you make a straight dough with a high finished dough temperature and/or use your Hatco unit? I assume you would be using the MFB product and possibly an oil in the pans.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #267 on: November 11, 2012, 09:59:58 AM »
I do not recall from my reading that the Hunt boys learned how to make the Detroit style from Tony.

I believe it is, in fact, the other way around.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #268 on: November 11, 2012, 10:40:33 AM »
Norma,

For your next Buddy's clone experiment at market, do you intend to go through the above ritual (if it can even be done in the context of the rules that you have to follow at market, especially the cold fermentation part) or will you make a straight dough with a high finished dough temperature and/or use your Hatco unit? I assume you would be using the MFB product and possibly an oil in the pans.

Peter

Peter,

I do not intend to mix a dough at market tomorrow.  I donít think I am ready to mix a larger batch of what I have been trying, because I am not sure of how my Hobart will mix the dough and I also donít know how my deck oven will bake the Buddyís clone attempts.  Until I can get consistent results in my deck oven with the Buddyís clone attempts I wonít be trying to mix the dough at market on Mondays.   

I do intend to mix 3 dough balls again tomorrow morning and then just cold ferment them for one day to be tried at market on Tuesday.  I really donít think I am going to use the Hatco unit this time, but might.  I really would like to see how the dough ferments in the steel pans, without using the Hatco Unit. 

Should I just try the same formulation and use the same amount of IDY I have been using and try to get a lower final dough temperature, or should I do something else?

I will be using the MFB to grease 2 pans and probably Canola oil in one pan.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #269 on: November 11, 2012, 10:41:23 AM »
I believe it is, in fact, the other way around.

CL

Craig,

I also believe you are correct!  :)

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #270 on: November 11, 2012, 10:58:11 AM »
I do intend to mix 3 dough balls again tomorrow morning and then just cold ferment them for one day to be tried at market on Tuesday.  I really donít think I am going to use the Hatco unit this time, but might.  I really would like to see how the dough ferments in the steel pans, without using the Hatco Unit.  

Should I just try the same formulation and use the same amount of IDY I have been using and try to get a lower final dough temperature, or should I do something else?

Norma,

At his time of year with the weather turning cooler where you are, I think that with around 0.60% IDY you should be able to have a dough that is usable after about a day of cold fermentation. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F if your cold storage unit is around 40 degrees F. You will also want to use a temper period, whether it is at room temperature or in your Hatco unit, if necessary. You should monitor the progress of the dough, especially the volume expansion of the dough and how easily you are able to spread the dough in the pans, in case changes are needed for future experiments.

Whichever ritual you decide to use to make the dough, you will perhaps want it to be one like you would use at market at some point, that is, one that fits within the rules at market.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 11:29:20 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #271 on: November 11, 2012, 09:51:23 PM »
Norma,

At his time of year with the weather turning cooler where you are, I think that with around 0.60% IDY you should be able to have a dough that is usable after about a day of cold fermentation. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F if your cold storage unit is around 40 degrees F. You will also want to use a temper period, whether it is at room temperature or in your Hatco unit, if necessary. You should monitor the progress of the dough, especially the volume expansion of the dough and how easily you are able to spread the dough in the pans, in case changes are needed for future experiments.

Whichever ritual you decide to use to make the dough, you will perhaps want it to be one like you would use at market at some point, that is, one that fits within the rules at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to use around 0.60 % IDY and strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F since it is cooler in my area at this time of the year. 

I will use a temper period.  I will also note how the dough spreads in the pan.  Before I did open the dough balls some, (to about fit the steel pans) so I am not sure if you want me to continue doing that, or if you want me to just place the dough ball into the pan and then try to spread it to the edges gradually. 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #272 on: November 11, 2012, 09:59:42 PM »
I will use a temper period.  I will also note how the dough spreads in the pan.  Before I did open the dough balls some, (to about fit the steel pans) so I am not sure if you want me to continue doing that, or if you want me to just place the dough ball into the pan and then try to spread it to the edges gradually. 

Norma,

It's hard for me to judge the condition of the dough on paper so I think you should use your best judgment based on how hard it is to open up and spread the dough to fill the pan.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #273 on: November 11, 2012, 10:30:22 PM »
Norma,

It's hard for me to judge the condition of the dough on paper so I think you should use your best judgment based on how hard it is to open up and spread the dough to fill the pan.

Peter

Peter,

To explain a little more, I think all of the doughs I have tried on this thread have been really easy to open, even if they are somewhat cold.  There is very little stretch back.  After a little more time of placing the doughs in the steels pans the edges are easy to place into the corners and sides of the steel pans.  I guess all that is from the higher hydration dough.  The doughs have all been really soft so far in this thread.

I will use my best judgment on what to do.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #274 on: November 12, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »



I called about the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices again this morning.  I talked to Lisa again and she checked to see if the plant had sent her the information I had asked for.  She said she had some information, but when I told Lisa what I really would like to know if she could give me the number of slices per serving size and those weight numbers, Lisa didnít have that information.  She then asked me if I really didnít want the ingredients that go into the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices and I said, no I didnít need the ingredients list. 

Lisa said she would call the plant again to see if she could get the information for the number of slices per serving and those weights. I also asked if the Margherita coarse pepperoni was thicker than normal sliced pepperoni and Lisa told me yes it was. 

Lisa had remembered she has spoke with me on Thursday.  I asked Lisa if she still had my email and phone numbers and she checked and said she did.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #275 on: November 12, 2012, 09:54:51 AM »
Another 3 dough ball batch of the Buddyís clone formulation was mixed this morning.  The final dough temperature was 74.7 degrees F.  The dough was mixed the same as in my last attempt and the 3 dough balls were scaled to 277 grams again.  The dough balls was left out for 15 minutes before being placed into the refrigerator.  The dough balls went into the refrigerator at 9:20 AM.

If anyone is interested, these are the pictures of what the dough looked like in my Kitchen Aid mixer bowl, the dough on the table, how the dough looks when it is scaled and the dough balls.  Poppy seeds were placed on one dough ball. 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #276 on: November 12, 2012, 12:26:41 PM »
Norma,

I have been following this recent PMQ Think Tank thread on the Detroit-style pizza with interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656.

You will note that a recent poster, Pizza of the Month, indicates at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84376#p84376 that more than 3% oil should be used for that style, at least his version, and that cold fermenting the dough should be avoided. I tracked down the poster's website where you can see an example of his square pizza at http://www.claysburgpizza.com/pizza-and-stromboli.html. Is Claysburg, PA anywhere near you?

I agree with Pizza of the Month that the recipes cited in the abovereferenced PMQTT thread are not Detroit style recipes.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #277 on: November 12, 2012, 05:44:17 PM »
Norma,

I have been following this recent PMQ Think Tank thread on the Detroit-style pizza with interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656.

You will note that a recent poster, Pizza of the Month, indicates at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84376#p84376 that more than 3% oil should be used for that style, at least his version, and that cold fermenting the dough should be avoided. I tracked down the poster's website where you can see an example of his square pizza at http://www.claysburgpizza.com/pizza-and-stromboli.html. Is Claysburg, PA anywhere near you?

I agree with Pizza of the Month that the recipes cited in the abovereferenced PMQTT thread are not Detroit style recipes.

Peter




 
Peter,

I havenít been looking on PMQ Think Tank lately, because they keep getting my password fouled up.  They do give me a new password, but each time I try to log-in it needs to be changed.  I donít know what is going on with the problems in logging on to PMQ Think Tank for me.  One time I did forget my password, but canít make a new one now.

I can see why you have been following the PMQ Think Tank thread with interest, since it about Detroit-style pizzas. 

I donít think the recent poster, Pizza of the Month, has a clue about what real Detroit-style pizza is about since I saw the pictures of what he must call Detroit-style pizzas.  His pizzas look like regular pan pizzas to me and they are not too appetizing to my eyes.  I think Pizza of the Month could learn a thing or two here on the forum.  If my Detroit-style pizzas I would like to offer at market would look anything like his Detroit-style pies, I wouldnít even offer them.  I wonder if I should post on that thread and link the Buddyís thread and this thread here on the forum.   

Claysburg Pizza Shop is about 2 hrs. 30 minutes away from me according to Google Maps, and no I donít have any interest in traveling to Claysburg to try those pizzas.  :-D

Do you think Pizza of the Monthís pizzas look anything like Detroit-style pizzas? 

Thanks for the links.  I find them interesting.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #278 on: November 12, 2012, 05:46:16 PM »
This is how much the one Buddyís clone dough ball fermented in about 4 hours.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #279 on: November 12, 2012, 06:17:31 PM »
Norma,

I donít think the recent poster, Pizza of the Month, has a clue about what real Detroit-style pizza is about since I saw the pictures of what he must call Detroit-style pizzas.  His pizzas look like regular pan pizzas to me and they are not too appetizing to my eyes.  I think Pizza of the Month could learn a thing or two here on the forum.  If my Detroit-style pizzas I would like to offer at market would look anything like his Detroit-style pies, I wouldnít even offer them.  I wonder if I should post on that thread and link the Buddyís thread and this thread here on the forum.


Another PMQTT member, aerotech, who is also a member of our forum and admires what we do, already referred the original poster to our forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84308#p84308. If their members choose to ignore that advice, that is their prerogative. Often I have sensed that the members at the PMQTT do not think that our forum offers them much of value, possibly because they view us as amateurs and not professionals.

Do you think Pizza of the Monthís pizzas look anything like Detroit-style pizzas? 

No, I do not. However, the pizzeria has been in business since the 1950s, so who am I to tell them to do otherwise?

Peter


 

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