Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 231896 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #250 on: November 10, 2012, 04:18:49 PM »
Boy, those are beauties Norma.  :chef:  Congratulations on finding the oil you needed for the crispy bottom.

Bob,

Thanks!  :) I don't think I would have tried the shortening from Wesson, if I hadn't seen the pans at Via 313 being greased with some kind of solid shortening if that is what they are greased with. Also Skee said at Reply 198 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222132.html#msg222132 when he first got the pans he also put a small swipe of Crisco into the edges of the corners.  The Tdavis posted at Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222138.html#msg222138  and asked if I tried using something with a higher saturated fat content.  Peter also helped me at Reply 213 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222349.html#msg222349  when he told me to note what appeared to be greased pans. 

I had looked at real lard at our Country store different times and for a 1 lb. block I think it was over 5.00.  That was another reason I tried the MFB because I already had it at home. 

Some of my Buddyís attempts on this thread do look like they have crispy bottoms, but they werenít as crispy as I wanted. 

Norma


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #251 on: November 10, 2012, 04:36:26 PM »
Norma,

In looking at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034, I believe that you used the dough formulation at the bottom of the page, not the middle one, but with the Occident flour, your 8" x 12" pan (instead of the 12" x 17" pan), and PizzaHog's thickness factor (0.1218).

In case someone wants to try out your dough formulation and methods, you might want to describe the mixing procedure you used. It might also help to know how long the dough balls were held in the refrigerator.

It might be useful to try canola oil at some point, or even soybean oil, since those are oils that anyone can get, whereas the MFB product is a foodservice product. Maybe a standard shortening can be used in lieu of the MFB.

I noticed that your numbering sequence is out of order. You may want to correct it in your last post. I corrected the sequence in this post.

Peter


Peter,

I think I made another booboo in posting what formulation I used.  I think it was the print out sheet at Reply 37 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220077.html#msg220077 that I just changed the size pan since I am using smaller pans right now.  I sure donít know where my bigger pans I ordered are now either.  I have to contact them to see what happened because they were shipped on earlier this week by Priority mail. 

I donít know if you posted wrong, or I did, but the size pans I am using now are 8x10.  I think you posted my pan size is 8Ēx12Ē at Reply 248. 

I will describe the mixing procedure and how long the dough was held in the fridge if someone might want to try out what I did. 

I will try canola oil, or even soybean oil at some point since those are oils anyone can readily purchase.  As I posted to Bob in my last post real lard is expensive and I am not sure if I will purchase some or not.  Did you have in mind trying Crisco shortening? 

I donít know how I fouled up the numbering sequence, but will try to modify it.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #252 on: November 10, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »
Norma,

I made a mistake in Reply 248 on the pan size you used. I corrected my error in that post.

Crisco would be an obvious choice for a shortening but there are other brands that should be comparable. Crisco reformulated its vegetable shortening some time ago. I don't know if that affected its use for your purposes.

If you have a problem correcting the number sequence, I can fix that for you.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #253 on: November 10, 2012, 04:57:17 PM »
Norma,

One of the most important pieces of information that we want on the Margherita coarse pepperoni is the number of servings and the number of slices of pepperoni per serving if that is how Margherita specifies that information in their Nutrition Facts. For example, today I did some more searching and saw at the Margherita website that there is a stick version of the Margherita coarse pepperoni. It can be found by scrolling down the pull-down menu at http://www.margheritabrand.com/product_categories/4. Amazingly, they misspelled coarse. If you click on the nutrition link, you can see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni but no stated number of servings or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving which, of course, makes sense for a stick product. I can only imagine that Buddy's uses pre-sliced pepperoni, not sticks, so the information we want is hopefully in the form that we would like.

Peter


Peter,

I will request the number of servings and number of slices of pepperoni per serving size when I call again Monday.  I see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni, but not stated number of servings, or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving.  I also saw the Nutrition Fact for the Reduced Fat Pepperoni, which is in slices.

Hopefully, I wonít mess up on what we really want to know.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #254 on: November 10, 2012, 05:00:58 PM »
Norma,

Crisco would be an obvious choice for a shortening but there are other brands that should be comparable. Crisco reformulated its vegetable shortening some time ago. I don't know if that affected its use for your purposes.

If you have a problem correcting the number sequence, I can fix that for you.

Peter


Peter,

What other kind of shortening are you thinking about to try, other than Crisco?  I have Crisco at home.

I can try to fix the number sequence, but was just trying a quick fix, by deleting the numbers altogether because I am soon going out to eat with my family and just took the quick way out.   

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #255 on: November 10, 2012, 05:12:06 PM »
What other kind of shortening are you thinking about to try, other than Crisco?  I have Crisco at home.

Norma,

I don't have any particular brand in mind but one brand that is sold in the supermarkets near me is Mrs. Tucker's: http://www.shopwell.com/mrs-tuckers-shortening/shortening/p/6172009948. That brand happens to include animal fats as well as vegetable fats.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #256 on: November 10, 2012, 05:23:25 PM »
Norma,

I don't have any particular brand in mind but one brand that is sold in the supermarkets near me is Mrs. Tucker's: http://www.shopwell.com/mrs-tuckers-shortening/shortening/p/6172009948. That brand happens to include animal fats as well as vegetable fats.

Peter

Peter,

I never saw the Mrs. Tucker's brand near where I live, but I can look more.  I see the Mrs. Tucker's brand happens to include animal fats as well as vegetable fats.

Norma  

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #257 on: November 10, 2012, 05:45:39 PM »
I will request the number of servings and number of slices of pepperoni per serving size when I call again Monday.  I see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni, but not stated number of servings, or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving.  I also saw the Nutrition Fact for the Reduced Fat Pepperoni, which is in slices.

Norma,

Most supermarket pillow packs of sliced pepperoni have a serving size of 28-30 grams (about an ounce) with about 14-16 slices per serving. The Margherita coarse pepperoni that Buddy's uses (unless they have switched brands) is a foodservice product. I understand that the Margherita coarse pepperoni slice is a thicker slice. That will affect its weight. I don't know Armour Eckrich recites its serving size and slices per serving for its foodservice products but it is the weight numbers that I would like for my analysis.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #258 on: November 10, 2012, 07:13:56 PM »
Norma,

I think this article, at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/, has been cited before on the forum, but it looks like Tony Gemignani played around with the Detroit-style pizza. I cite the article mainly for the mention of the Wisconsin brick cheese and white cheddar cheese combination. Another article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html, mentions mozzarella as the second cheese (with Wisconsin cheddar being the other cheese).

It looks like Tony's version uses a low protein flour.

Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313 studied under Tony: http://via313.com/about.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 10:46:47 AM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #259 on: November 10, 2012, 10:42:21 PM »
Norma,

Most supermarket pillow packs of sliced pepperoni have a serving size of 28-30 grams (about an ounce) with about 14-16 slices per serving. The Margherita coarse pepperoni that Buddy's uses (unless they have switched brands) is a foodservice product. I understand that the Margherita coarse pepperoni slice is a thicker slice. That will affect its weight. I don't know Armour Eckrich recites its serving size and slices per serving for its foodservice products but it is the weight numbers that I would like for my analysis.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you understand the Margherita coarse pepperoni slice is a thicker slice than the pillow packs of sliced pepperoni.  I can see how that would affect its weight.  I did copy both of your posts and will type out what I need to ask.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #260 on: November 10, 2012, 11:00:27 PM »
Norma,

I think this article, at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/, has been cited before on the forum, but it looks like Tony Gemignani played around with the Detroit-style pizza. I cite the article mainly for the mention of the Wisconsin brick cheese and white cheddar cheese combination. Another article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html, mentions mozzarella as the second cheese.

It looks like Tony's version uses a low protein flour.

Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313 studied under Tony: http://via313.com/about.

Peter

Peter,

I donít recall that I ever saw the article here on the forum about Tony Gemignani playing around with Detroit-style pizzas.  I wonder why the blog article and the article on Slice mention two different cheeses as the second cheese.  Those articles were interesting that you dug out.  It does look like Tony uses a low protein flour.  I never put two and two together that the Hunt brothers studied under Tony to learn how to make Detroit-style pizzas.  I did read the Hunt brothers studied under Tony, but wondered why he could help them make Detroit-styled pizzas.  How did you put that together, or did you know all that before?

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #261 on: November 10, 2012, 11:10:05 PM »
If anyone is interested, these are the methods I used to mix the dough and about how long the dough balls fermented before using them. 

I wasnít sure of the percentage of IDY to use for a dough that was supposed to be made the same day and also trying to bake a Buddyís clone attempt the same day.

I just used what I had used in some of the formulations on this thread which was 0.60369 % IDY.  The other instructions and pictures of the dough and dough ball are at Reply 224 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222488.html#msg222488 and Reply 230 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222556.html#msg222556  The final dough temperature is in the first link.

I started the mixing by adding the Kosher salt to the warm water in the mixer bowl of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had added the IDY to the flour.  The flat beater was used first until all the dough was on the flat beater.  The I used a metal spoon to take the dough off of the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 15 minutes to let the water hydrate the flour more.  I then used the flat beater again.  After scraping the dough off of the flat beater again I changed over to the dough hook.  The dough was mixed for 6 minutes (on speed 1) and then rested again for 10 minutes.  I then mixed on speed 3 for 8 minutes.  The dough wasnít really sticky, but a little sticky.  I then lightly floured my kitchen table and scraped the dough (from the mixer bowl) onto the flour.  It can be seen in the link above what the dough looked like right out of the mixer bowl on my kitchen table.  The dough was then scaled into 3 pieces of dough.  The three pieces of dough were then balled with a little bit of flour and oiled with vegetable oil.  The dough balls then were put into plastic containers and the lid was put on.  They then sat out for 20 minutes to start the fermentation process at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough balls were finished at 11:00 AM.  The dough balls were then cold fermented until about 6:00 PM.

If I wasnít clear enough and anyone wants more information, just let me know.

Norma   

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #262 on: November 10, 2012, 11:54:23 PM »


If I wasnít clear enough and anyone wants more information, just let me know.

Norma   
Yes please Ms. Norma....this whole process is so confusing to me I think I need you to reiterate the whole deal from the beginning ....thanks.
Ha!...gottcha. :chef:  You have been doing an excellent job of describing all your steps and changes on this one Norma. Great,great work...thanks so much!
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #263 on: November 11, 2012, 08:55:10 AM »
I donít recall that I ever saw the article here on the forum about Tony Gemignani playing around with Detroit-style pizzas.  I wonder why the blog article and the article on Slice mention two different cheeses as the second cheese.  Those articles were interesting that you dug out.  It does look like Tony uses a low protein flour.  I never put two and two together that the Hunt brothers studied under Tony to learn how to make Detroit-style pizzas.  I did read the Hunt brothers studied under Tony, but wondered why he could help them make Detroit-styled pizzas.  How did you put that together, or did you know all that before?

Norma,

The Gemignani article at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/ was previously mentioned on the forum in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137340/topicseen.html#msg137340. The connection between the two Hunt boys and Tony either came from the Via 313 website, which I reviewed some time ago when they became members of the forum, or from one of my many searches on the Detroit style. I do not recall from my reading that the Hunt boys learned how to make the Detroit style from Tony. Since the Hunt boys came from the Detroit area and had grown up eating Detroit style pizza, I think that they could have shown Tony a thing or two about that style. Also, before the Hunt boys went out to study under Tony, they had already pretty much perfected their Detroit-style dough and pizza in Austin.

With respect to the two conflicting articles (the insidescoopsf.sfgate article and the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html), you will note that the insidescoopsf article is dated 4/25/11 and mentions the Wisconsin brick cheese and the white cheddar cheese, and that the Slice article is dated September 21, 2011 and mentions the Wisconsin cheddar cheese (maybe the white variety) and the mozzarella cheese. Somewhere between the two articles, Tony may have switched cheeses. If both articles are correct, there could have been several reasons for the switch. For example, it may have been because of customer preference (maybe consumers in the SF area are not used to Wisconsin brick cheese), availability (Wisconsin brick cheese is not widely known outside of the Midwest), cost (Wisconsin brick cheese is not cheap), or maybe Tony was just playing around with different possible cheese combinations.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 10:09:13 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #264 on: November 11, 2012, 09:30:11 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for referencing the post of yours here on the forum where you mentioned that Gemignani was starting to offer Detroit-style pizzas. 

I did a Google search this morning about Tony Gemignani and the Hunt boys and saw the Hunt boys did learn to make Detroit-style pizzas before they went to learn more about making different pizzas from Tony.  I also think the Hunt boys could show Tony a thing or two about making Detroit-style pizzas, since they have tasted and seen so many of them. 

Thanks also for explaining more about the conflicting articles. 

I have no idea of what other brick cheeses taste like other than Eddieís, but when I make Greek style pizzas with AMPI white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas, they really donít taste that much different to me then when using just the Eddieís brick cheese, or when using AMPI mild white cheddar and the Eddieís brick cheese like I did in my last attempt.  I really donít know what a real Buddyís pizza tastes like though in the cheese department, but with my experiences with blends I donít think regular people could really tell the difference no matter what is used.  At least that was the experience with my family, in that they thought the cheese I used for my last attempts was all mozzarella. 

I also am going to contact Great Lakes at some point in time and see if there are distributors in my area for Eddieís brick cheese.  I would be interested in knowing how much it costs a pound from a distributor.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #265 on: November 11, 2012, 09:31:56 AM »
Yes please Ms. Norma....this whole process is so confusing to me I think I need you to reiterate the whole deal from the beginning ....thanks.
Ha!...gottcha. :chef:  You have been doing an excellent job of describing all your steps and changes on this one Norma. Great,great work...thanks so much!


Bob,

Do you really understand what I did so far?  If not, I can explain again.  Are you planning on trying this style of pizza? 

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #266 on: November 11, 2012, 09:55:30 AM »
I started the mixing by adding the Kosher salt to the warm water in the mixer bowl of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had added the IDY to the flour.  The flat beater was used first until all the dough was on the flat beater.  The I used a metal spoon to take the dough off of the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 15 minutes to let the water hydrate the flour more.  I then used the flat beater again.  After scraping the dough off of the flat beater again I changed over to the dough hook.  The dough was mixed for 6 minutes (on speed 1) and then rested again for 10 minutes.  I then mixed on speed 3 for 8 minutes.  The dough wasnít really sticky, but a little sticky.  I then lightly floured my kitchen table and scraped the dough (from the mixer bowl) onto the flour.  It can be seen in the link above what the dough looked like right out of the mixer bowl on my kitchen table.  The dough was then scaled into 3 pieces of dough.  The three pieces of dough were then balled with a little bit of flour and oiled with vegetable oil.  The dough balls then were put into plastic containers and the lid was put on.  They then sat out for 20 minutes to start the fermentation process at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough balls were finished at 11:00 AM.  The dough balls were then cold fermented until about 6:00 PM.

Norma,

For your next Buddy's clone experiment at market, do you intend to go through the above ritual (if it can even be done in the context of the rules that you have to follow at market, especially the cold fermentation part) or will you make a straight dough with a high finished dough temperature and/or use your Hatco unit? I assume you would be using the MFB product and possibly an oil in the pans.

Peter


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #267 on: November 11, 2012, 09:59:58 AM »
I do not recall from my reading that the Hunt boys learned how to make the Detroit style from Tony.

I believe it is, in fact, the other way around.

CL
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #268 on: November 11, 2012, 10:40:33 AM »
Norma,

For your next Buddy's clone experiment at market, do you intend to go through the above ritual (if it can even be done in the context of the rules that you have to follow at market, especially the cold fermentation part) or will you make a straight dough with a high finished dough temperature and/or use your Hatco unit? I assume you would be using the MFB product and possibly an oil in the pans.

Peter

Peter,

I do not intend to mix a dough at market tomorrow.  I donít think I am ready to mix a larger batch of what I have been trying, because I am not sure of how my Hobart will mix the dough and I also donít know how my deck oven will bake the Buddyís clone attempts.  Until I can get consistent results in my deck oven with the Buddyís clone attempts I wonít be trying to mix the dough at market on Mondays.   

I do intend to mix 3 dough balls again tomorrow morning and then just cold ferment them for one day to be tried at market on Tuesday.  I really donít think I am going to use the Hatco unit this time, but might.  I really would like to see how the dough ferments in the steel pans, without using the Hatco Unit. 

Should I just try the same formulation and use the same amount of IDY I have been using and try to get a lower final dough temperature, or should I do something else?

I will be using the MFB to grease 2 pans and probably Canola oil in one pan.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #269 on: November 11, 2012, 10:41:23 AM »
I believe it is, in fact, the other way around.

CL

Craig,

I also believe you are correct!  :)

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #270 on: November 11, 2012, 10:58:11 AM »
I do intend to mix 3 dough balls again tomorrow morning and then just cold ferment them for one day to be tried at market on Tuesday.  I really donít think I am going to use the Hatco unit this time, but might.  I really would like to see how the dough ferments in the steel pans, without using the Hatco Unit.  

Should I just try the same formulation and use the same amount of IDY I have been using and try to get a lower final dough temperature, or should I do something else?

Norma,

At his time of year with the weather turning cooler where you are, I think that with around 0.60% IDY you should be able to have a dough that is usable after about a day of cold fermentation. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F if your cold storage unit is around 40 degrees F. You will also want to use a temper period, whether it is at room temperature or in your Hatco unit, if necessary. You should monitor the progress of the dough, especially the volume expansion of the dough and how easily you are able to spread the dough in the pans, in case changes are needed for future experiments.

Whichever ritual you decide to use to make the dough, you will perhaps want it to be one like you would use at market at some point, that is, one that fits within the rules at market.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 11:29:20 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #271 on: November 11, 2012, 09:51:23 PM »
Norma,

At his time of year with the weather turning cooler where you are, I think that with around 0.60% IDY you should be able to have a dough that is usable after about a day of cold fermentation. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F if your cold storage unit is around 40 degrees F. You will also want to use a temper period, whether it is at room temperature or in your Hatco unit, if necessary. You should monitor the progress of the dough, especially the volume expansion of the dough and how easily you are able to spread the dough in the pans, in case changes are needed for future experiments.

Whichever ritual you decide to use to make the dough, you will perhaps want it to be one like you would use at market at some point, that is, one that fits within the rules at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to use around 0.60 % IDY and strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F since it is cooler in my area at this time of the year. 

I will use a temper period.  I will also note how the dough spreads in the pan.  Before I did open the dough balls some, (to about fit the steel pans) so I am not sure if you want me to continue doing that, or if you want me to just place the dough ball into the pan and then try to spread it to the edges gradually. 

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #272 on: November 11, 2012, 09:59:42 PM »
I will use a temper period.  I will also note how the dough spreads in the pan.  Before I did open the dough balls some, (to about fit the steel pans) so I am not sure if you want me to continue doing that, or if you want me to just place the dough ball into the pan and then try to spread it to the edges gradually. 

Norma,

It's hard for me to judge the condition of the dough on paper so I think you should use your best judgment based on how hard it is to open up and spread the dough to fill the pan.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #273 on: November 11, 2012, 10:30:22 PM »
Norma,

It's hard for me to judge the condition of the dough on paper so I think you should use your best judgment based on how hard it is to open up and spread the dough to fill the pan.

Peter

Peter,

To explain a little more, I think all of the doughs I have tried on this thread have been really easy to open, even if they are somewhat cold.  There is very little stretch back.  After a little more time of placing the doughs in the steels pans the edges are easy to place into the corners and sides of the steel pans.  I guess all that is from the higher hydration dough.  The doughs have all been really soft so far in this thread.

I will use my best judgment on what to do.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #274 on: November 12, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »



I called about the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices again this morning.  I talked to Lisa again and she checked to see if the plant had sent her the information I had asked for.  She said she had some information, but when I told Lisa what I really would like to know if she could give me the number of slices per serving size and those weight numbers, Lisa didnít have that information.  She then asked me if I really didnít want the ingredients that go into the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices and I said, no I didnít need the ingredients list. 

Lisa said she would call the plant again to see if she could get the information for the number of slices per serving and those weights. I also asked if the Margherita coarse pepperoni was thicker than normal sliced pepperoni and Lisa told me yes it was. 

Lisa had remembered she has spoke with me on Thursday.  I asked Lisa if she still had my email and phone numbers and she checked and said she did.

Norma


 

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