Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 106615 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #400 on: November 21, 2012, 09:21:18 AM »
Don’t be puzzled by what I did with using 1 lb. of dough for the 10”x14” pan.  I just looked at the final dough ball weight and guessed at how much dough I should used for a 10”x14” pan.

Norma,

In a way, I am kind of glad you winged it with the one pound of dough for the 10" x 14" pan. I say this because I have been wondering what the lower limit is for the weight of dough that Buddy's uses to make its pizzas and still get good finished crust thickness. That is also the reason why I wanted to see how a 9-ounce dough ball would behave in the 8" x 10" pan. I will await your full report to see if it sheds any light on the answers to these kinds of questions, especially since the amounts of cheese and sauce and toppings, as well as the method of preparing and proofing the dough, can affect the final thickness of the pizza.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #401 on: November 21, 2012, 07:36:56 PM »
Norma,

In a way, I am kind of glad you winged it with the one pound of dough for the 10" x 14" pan. I say this because I have been wondering what the lower limit is for the weight of dough that Buddy's uses to make its pizzas and still get good finished crust thickness. That is also the reason why I wanted to see how a 9-ounce dough ball would behave in the 8" x 10" pan. I will await your full report to see if it sheds any light on the answers to these kinds of questions, especially since the amounts of cheese and sauce and toppings, as well as the method of preparing and proofing the dough, can affect the final thickness of the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I have no idea what the lower limit is for the weight Buddy’s might use to make their pizzas and still get a good finished crust finished crust thickness, but I tried the 3 dough balls for the larger steel pan in three different tempering ways to see what would happen.  I also wanted to see if it made any differences if the skin stayed moist while fermenting in how the crumb rose in the baked pizza.   The partial pictures of first Buddy clone I posted were from fermenting the dough on top of my oven with the metal lid kept on when the dough was fermenting and that skin did stay moist with no crusty “skin“.  The second and third skins in steel pan were fermented for varying amounts of time, until they did develop skins and the 3rd one did have somewhat of a tough skin.  I wanted to see if the dough still rose about the same when baking.  All three skins did rise about the same when baked.  I thought that was somewhat interesting.  I would have thought the skins with the toughest skin wouldn’t have risen as much when baked in the oven with all the toppings applied.  I guess the dough fermenting beneath the skin, still is okay any way (and will still rise about the same when baked in the oven), but will have to do some more experiments on that because right now I don’t have any conclusions. 

I don’t have time to do a full report and resize all the pictures tonight, but these are the numbers for the 2 Buddy’s clone attempts with pepperoni (same brand as last time) and cheese.  Both of these dough balls were just put in the steel pans then pressed open and left to ferment with no lids on.  I used 8 ounces of brick cheese to dress the 2 pizzas and for the one pizza used 5.4 ounces of sauce.  For the second pizza I used 4.9 ounces of sauce.  The final bake weight of the first pizza was 1 lb. 6.1 ounces.  For the second Buddy’s clone attempt the final bake weight was 1 lb. 4.6 ounces.  I don’t really know how much bake loss weights both of those pizzas will have, but will note that the sauce might have been a little thinner in the second pizza.  The first pizza took 11 minutes 24 seconds to bake and the second pizza took 12 minutes 1 second to bake.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #402 on: November 21, 2012, 07:54:52 PM »
I just wanted to post that I had contacted Crystal Farms cheese on Sunday via their Contact feature.  This is the email I received today from Crystal Farms.  When I searched the Crystal Farms website at http://www.crystalfarmscheese.com/  I could find no mention of brick cheese.

Dear Norma:

We want to thank you very much for taking the time to contact the Crystal Farms Consumer Service Center. We currently do not distribute a Brick cheese.

Please feel free to contact me with any additional comments or questions.

Sincerely,
Patricia Markuson
Crystal Farms
Customer Service Lead
Patricia.markuson@Crystalfarms.com

I wonder if I should try to contact Land O’ Lakes to see if they carry brick cheese.  I saw when PowerWagonPete posted at Reply 142 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20093.msg206817.html#msg206817 about the New Bridge brick cheese he said it has similar Nutrition Facts to Land O’ Lakes brick cheese.  Where Pete lives really isn’t that far away from me.  If I can’t find the New Bridge brick cheese in my local supermarkets I might travel to where Pete live.  I wonder who manufactures the New Brick cheese too.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #403 on: November 21, 2012, 08:30:03 PM »
Norma,

I thought that I had recalled seeing the logo for the Crystal Farms cheese (http://www.crystalfarms.com/) in one of your earlier posts. I found that post, at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220464.html#msg220464, but I can now see that I was mistaken on the logo and the name (http://www.greatlakescheese.com/about-great-lakes-cheese.php). The correct name is Great Lakes. I'm positive that I have seen that brand in one of the supermarkets near me. However, I don't recall seeing a brick cheese under that name. Brick cheese in general is not one that I have seen in the stores near me although maybe there is a brand somewhere in the specialty cheese section. That is also the only place where I can find white cheddar cheese. But at highly inflated prices.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #404 on: November 21, 2012, 08:47:22 PM »
I don’t have time to do a full report and resize all the pictures tonight, but these are the numbers for the 2 Buddy’s clone attempts with pepperoni (same brand as last time) and cheese.  Both of these dough balls were just put in the steel pans then pressed open and left to ferment with no lids on.  I used 8 ounces of brick cheese to dress the 2 pizzas and for the one pizza used 5.4 ounces of sauce.  For the second pizza I used 4.9 ounces of sauce.  The final bake weight of the first pizza was 1 lb. 6.1 ounces.  For the second Buddy’s clone attempt the final bake weight was 1 lb. 4.6 ounces.  I don’t really know how much bake loss weights both of those pizzas will have, but will note that the sauce might have been a little thinner in the second pizza.  The first pizza took 11 minutes 24 seconds to bake and the second pizza took 12 minutes 1 second to bake.

Norma,

Based on the information that you provided, the first cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 9.5%, and the second cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 13.8%. For both pizzas, I assumed that you used 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices. We perhaps shouldn't make too much of the weight losses since the conditions were different than what we believe Buddy's is doing in making its emergency dough pizzas.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #405 on: November 21, 2012, 09:01:29 PM »
Norma,

I thought that I had recalled seeing the logo for the Crystal Farms cheese (http://www.crystalfarms.com/) in one of your earlier posts. I found that post, at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220464.html#msg220464, but I can now see that I was mistaken on the logo and the name (http://www.greatlakescheese.com/about-great-lakes-cheese.php). The correct name is Great Lakes. I'm positive that I have seen that brand in one of the supermarkets near me. However, I don't recall seeing a brick cheese under that name. Brick cheese in general is not one that I have seen in the stores near me although maybe there is a brand somewhere in the specialty cheese section. That is also the only place where I can find white cheddar cheese. But at highly inflated prices.

Peter


Peter,

I haven’t seen Great Lakes cheeses in any supermarkets in my area.  The only supermarket where my daughter could find Great Lakes sharp cheddar was in Wildwood where I posted about at Reply 1080 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg191222/topicseen.html#msg191222 in the boardwalk thread.  Trenton Bill told me they do carry Great Lakes cheeses in NJ, but he has never seen any Great Lakes brick cheese.  He also purchased his brick cheese from Mandi Cheese, but like me, said he isn’t going to pay that much for brick cheese again.

I think I will try to contact Land O’ Lakes to see if they carry brick cheese.  I am about at a loss where to find the brick cheese.  I really don’t know who produces the New Bridge brick cheese that Pete purchased.  

I guess white cheddars are scarce in Texas, since you can only find them at highly inflated prices.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 09:03:26 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #406 on: November 21, 2012, 09:10:08 PM »
Norma,

Based on the information that you provided, the first cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 9.5%, and the second cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 13.8%. For both pizzas, I assumed that you used 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices. We perhaps shouldn't make too much of the weight losses since the conditions were different than what we believe Buddy's is doing in making its emergency dough pizzas.

Peter



Peter,

That sure is a big difference in weight losses for the two cheese and pepperoni pizzas.  I did use 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices for both pizzas.  I used my smaller scale to make sure the weight of the pepperoni slices were 1.25 ounces. 

I sure don’t know why Buddy’s emergency dough pizzas would be that much different in weight losses than mind.  Do you still want me to make an emergency cheese and pepperoni pizza this weekend in my home oven, or do you think my home oven is another variable that will just confuse baked weight loss weights?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #407 on: November 21, 2012, 09:24:16 PM »
I sure don’t know why Buddy’s emergency dough pizzas would be that much different in weight losses than mine.  Do you still want me to make an emergency cheese and pepperoni pizza this weekend in my home oven, or do you think my home oven is another variable that will just confuse baked weight loss weights?

Norma,

That is entirely up to you. There are so many variables in a Buddy's pizza even as made at Buddy's that it is hard to know which information and data will be useful in trying to replicate their pizzas. The closest test at the moment would be to make an emergency Buddy's clone dough at market using 9 ounces of dough, 8 ounces of brick cheese, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, some sauce, and bake the pizza at about the same temperature and for the same amount of time as Buddy's does. The next closest test would be to do the same thing but with your home oven. It would also help if we had some weight data for a real Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #408 on: November 22, 2012, 08:01:23 AM »
Norma,

That is entirely up to you. There are so many variables in a Buddy's pizza even as made at Buddy's that it is hard to know which information and data will be useful in trying to replicate their pizzas. The closest test at the moment would be to make an emergency Buddy's clone dough at market using 9 ounces of dough, 8 ounces of brick cheese, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, some sauce, and bake the pizza at about the same temperature and for the same amount of time as Buddy's does. The next closest test would be to do the same thing but with your home oven. It would also help if we had some weight data for a real Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I will think over what you posted and might try one emergency dough at market on Tuesday if I find time.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #409 on: November 22, 2012, 08:03:18 AM »
This is the rest of the report about what happened with the Buddy’s clone pizza I experimented with on Tuesday.  These are the rest of the pictures of the first Buddy’s clone attempt in the bigger steel pan that I posted some of the pictures at Reply 395 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg224599.html#msg224599   

The first picture shows how moist the top of the dough was.  Even with the moist dough, the toppings didn’t make the crumb fall in the bake.  That still puzzles me.

One thing I can’t figure out is why some of the pizzas had a droop at one end when they were finished baking.  I think that was on two of the Buddy’s attempts.  One being in a larger pan and one being in a smaller pan.  I don’t know if too much MFB was added to the steel pan that caused that or not.  I wonder if I should try all Canola oil in the bakes next Tuesday.

Also I wonder now since I proofed the dough in the steel pans and saw a “skin” form on the doughs that were left out without any cover if that is really what Buddy’s is doing.  I think I recall that Mary Heller was carrying two Buddy’s doughs in the steel pans that didn’t look like there were “skins” on the doughs in the steel pans.  I wonder if Buddy’s might be using some kind of proofer that protects the skins from forming a “skin”.  There are too many mysteries about Buddy’s pizzas that I don’t truly know. 

I am also trying to figure out just how Buddy’s mixes their dough.  As could be seen on the two videos I took in my Hobart mixer, I did really mix the dough fast and on second speed different times.  The dough still was sticky.  I had at first wondered if those higher mix speeds might damaged the dough in some way, but really don’t think they did.  I was holding my breath on that one and really didn’t know until Tuesday if those dough balls would be okay.  I had to oil my doughs balls though because I was putting them in plastic bags to ferment until the next day.  When I took the dough balls out of the plastic bags, they really weren’t in round dough balls anymore.  I know Buddy’s doesn’t put their dough balls in plastic bags.

I might be thinking ahead too much, but for Christmas and New Years Day at market, since they are both on Tuesdays, market will only be opened on Mondays until 3:00 PM.  I am kind of wondering how I am going to make this dough on a Friday and also my regular NY style pizza dough in the amount of yeast I might have to try.  From Friday to Monday is a lot different than one day in trying to ferment my doughs. 

Norma 
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #410 on: November 22, 2012, 08:04:13 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #411 on: November 22, 2012, 08:08:59 AM »
This were the two Buddy's attempts in a smaller pan.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #412 on: November 22, 2012, 08:11:15 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #413 on: November 22, 2012, 08:13:52 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #414 on: November 22, 2012, 08:22:20 AM »
This was the one other larger Buddy's clone pizza attempt.  There was a "skin" on this dough, but it didn't seem to affect the rise of the crumb when baked.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 08:27:23 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #415 on: November 22, 2012, 08:23:51 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #416 on: November 22, 2012, 10:51:38 AM »
Norma,

The first picture shows how moist the top of the dough was.  Even with the moist dough, the toppings didn’t make the crumb fall in the bake.  That still puzzles me.

I wouldn't fight it. Apparently there is enough strength in the gluten matrix and retention of the gases of fermentation that the dough can tolerate adding cheese, pepperoni slices and some sauce on top of it without collapsing. Also, the sides of the pans contain the dough and may prevent it from spreading when things are put on top of it.

One thing I can’t figure out is why some of the pizzas had a droop at one end when they were finished baking.  I think that was on two of the Buddy’s attempts.  One being in a larger pan and one being in a smaller pan.  I don’t know if too much MFB was added to the steel pan that caused that or not.  I wonder if I should try all Canola oil in the bakes next Tuesday.

One of the things that I noticed was that lufty, the former employee of Buddy's, said to use the "thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge". See his discussion of this point at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. Also, the same point was made in the video at http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza where, at 1:52, the dough is pushed up at the corners. Maybe that simple measure helps "lock" the dough in place and keeps the ends from shrinking more than the rest of the pizza. It's also possible, I suppose, that the dough at the sides is pushed up relative to the center but I have not read anywhere that that is done. I also recall that one member used shortening at the corners of the pan, although I have seen no evidence that Buddy's does that. However, it might help in your case if it solves the problem.

Also I wonder now since I proofed the dough in the steel pans and saw a “skin” form on the doughs that were left out without any cover if that is really what Buddy’s is doing.  I think I recall that Mary Heller was carrying two Buddy’s doughs in the steel pans that didn’t look like there were “skins” on the doughs in the steel pans.  I wonder if Buddy’s might be using some kind of proofer that protects the skins from forming a “skin”.  There are too many mysteries about Buddy’s pizzas that I don’t truly know.

At this point, I am not prepared to ignore or refute what lufty said about how the Buddy's dough is made and managed, as he discusses at Reply 318 referenced above. I have not read anywhere that Buddy's uses a proofer of any sort. steel_baker entertained the idea of using a proofer at Buddy's, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg126411/topicseen.html#msg126411, but as far as I know that was never confirmed. 

I am also trying to figure out just how Buddy’s mixes their dough.  As could be seen on the two videos I took in my Hobart mixer, I did really mix the dough fast and on second speed different times.  The dough still was sticky.  I had at first wondered if those higher mix speeds might damaged the dough in some way, but really don’t think they did.  I was holding my breath on that one and really didn’t know until Tuesday if those dough balls would be okay.  I had to oil my doughs balls though because I was putting them in plastic bags to ferment until the next day.  When I took the dough balls out of the plastic bags, they really weren’t in round dough balls anymore.  I know Buddy’s doesn’t put their dough balls in plastic bags.

My guess is that Buddy's works off of 50 pound bags of flour and otherwise uses volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients since that would simplify matters for the workers who make the dough. A 50-pound bag of flour would seem to be enough to make a fair number of dough balls for both the small and large pans for lunch service. Based on typical volumes learned from experience, further dough batches would be made throughoy the day for later service. If timed properly, that might negate the need for a proofer.

I noticed over at Reply 1211 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20791.msg224601.html#msg224601 that you offered your Detroit-style pizza for sale at market. How did that go, and how did the pizzas taste?

Peter
 

 


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #417 on: November 22, 2012, 02:22:30 PM »
Norma,
I wouldn't fight it. Apparently there is enough strength in the gluten matrix and retention of the gases of fermentation that the dough can tolerate adding cheese, pepperoni slices and some sauce on top of it without collapsing. Also, the sides of the pans contain the dough and may prevent it from spreading when things are put on top of it.
One of the things that I noticed was that lufty, the former employee of Buddy's, said to use the "thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge". See his discussion of this point at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. Also, the same point was made in the video at http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza where, at 1:52, the dough is pushed up at the corners. Maybe that simple measure helps "lock" the dough in place and keeps the ends from shrinking more than the rest of the pizza. It's also possible, I suppose, that the dough at the sides is pushed up relative to the center but I have not read anywhere that that is done. I also recall that one member used shortening at the corners of the pan, although I have seen no evidence that Buddy's does that. However, it might help in your case if it solves the problem.
At this point, I am not prepared to ignore or refute what lufty said about how the Buddy's dough is made and managed, as he discusses at Reply 318 referenced above. I have not read anywhere that Buddy's uses a proofer of any sort. steel_baker entertained the idea of using a proofer at Buddy's, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg126411/topicseen.html#msg126411, but as far as I know that was never confirmed. 
 
My guess is that Buddy's works off of 50 pound bags of flour and otherwise uses volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients since that would simplify matters for the workers who make the dough. A 50-pound bag of flour would seem to be enough to make a fair number of dough balls for both the small and large pans for lunch service. Based on typical volumes learned from experience, further dough batches would be made throughoy the day for later service. If timed properly, that might negate the need for a proofer.

I noticed over at Reply 1211 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20791.msg224601.html#msg224601 that you offered your Detroit-style pizza for sale at market. How did that go, and how did the pizzas taste?

Peter
 

 





Peter,

I sure am not going to fight it if there is enough gluten matrix and retention of gases of fermentation that it can hold up to adding the cheese and pepperoni slices and then sauce on top without collapsing.  I didn’t think about the sides of the pans maybe might have prevented the dough from spreading when toppings are place on top. 

I tried to make my doughs stick halfway up the sides of the pans different time like lufty posted, but for some reason the dough always comes back down while tempering.  I think I had better results with getting the dough to stick to the pans halfway up when I made the emergency Buddy's clone dough.

I wouldn’t think Buddy’s would use a proofer either, because I saw how fast dough can rise when 0.80% IDY was added with a higher final dough temperature. 

I never thought about Buddy’s using volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients other than the 50 lb. bag, but do know other big pizzerias do just add the other ingredients by volume. 

I had wanted to offer some of the Detroit-style pizzas for lunch, but became busy when a worker came and ordered different whole pizzas for workers where he worked.  If I am going to be making these Detroit-style pizzas all the time, I have to manage my time and doughs better.  In the later afternoon and early evening, Steve and I did put some Detroit-style pizzas out to sell though.  The one lady customer came back twice and said how good the pizza was.  There were also a few more customers that also really liked the Detroit-style pizzas.  The one man said he was a connoisseur of good pizzas and he said he really liked the Detroit-style pizza and he also would be back to purchase more.  That Detroit-style pizza had a blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas.  He liked the taste of the cheddar and the light texture of the crumb.  Of course Steve and I had to explain what a Detroit-style pizza was.  The smaller Detroit-style pizzas weren’t offered for sale.  Steve and my taste testers ate them.  Hopefully this style of pizza will be appealing to my customers and I can get my act together to be able to make them if customers are interested.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #418 on: November 22, 2012, 02:52:26 PM »
I might be thinking ahead too much, but for Christmas and New Years Day at market, since they are both on Tuesdays, market will only be opened on Mondays until 3:00 PM.  I am kind of wondering how I am going to make this dough on a Friday and also my regular NY style pizza dough in the amount of yeast I might have to try.  From Friday to Monday is a lot different than one day in trying to ferment my doughs. 

Norma,

If it turns out that your customers by Christmas and New Years Day are still interested in your Detroit-style pizzas, I would think that the yeast issue should be something that can be resolved. Unfortunately, I don't think that the poppy seed trick will be effective for the Detroit-style dough because of the way that it is formed in your pans and when that takes place. So, some experimentation may be required in advance of the above holidays. You may recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of the dough, so that approach is clearly a viable one. The pizzas might even have a better flavor profile because of the extended fermentation.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #419 on: November 22, 2012, 09:57:59 PM »
Norma,

If it turns out that your customers by Christmas and New Years Day are still interested in your Detroit-style pizzas, I would think that the yeast issue should be something that can be resolved. Unfortunately, I don't think that the poppy seed trick will be effective for the Detroit-style dough because of the way that it is formed in your pans and when that takes place. So, some experimentation may be required in advance of the above holidays. You may recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of the dough, so that approach is clearly a viable one. The pizzas might even have a better flavor profile because of the extended fermentation.

Peter

Peter,

I think I will start on experimenting with a smaller amount of yeast the week after next.  I do recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of their dough, but for three days of cold fermentation with a higher hydration dough it might get a little tricky.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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