Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 142171 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #420 on: November 23, 2012, 08:05:54 AM »
I think I will start on experimenting with a smaller amount of yeast the week after next.  I do recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of their dough, but for three days of cold fermentation with a higher hydration dough it might get a little tricky.

Norma,

It is true that a higher hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough (all other things being equal), but you can compensate for that by using lower dough temperatures (low finished dough temperature and the refrigerator/deli case) and less yeast. In your case, you might start with about 0.20-0.25% IDY and go from there depending on your test results. You might also find it necessary to give the dough a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the dough. This experiment can be conducted at home if you wish to start the experiment sooner. All you would be trying to do is to get a handle on the amount of IDY needed to get the job done.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #421 on: November 23, 2012, 08:21:34 AM »
Norma,

It is true that a higher hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough (all other things being equal), but you can compensate for that by using lower dough temperatures (low finished dough temperature and the refrigerator/deli case) and less yeast. In your case, you might start with about 0.20-0.25% IDY and go from there depending on your test results. You might also find it necessary to give the dough a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the dough. This experiment can be conducted at home if you wish to start the experiment sooner. All you would be trying to do is to get a handle on the amount of IDY needed to get the job done.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that I can compensate for the higher hydration by using a lower final dough temperature and use less yeast.  That is what I thought, but really wasn’t sure on much yeast to use.  0.20-0.25% IDY sounds good to me.  Maybe I will make an experimental dough tomorrow morning to try for Tuesday.  That will be the same amount of days that I would need to ferment my doughs for market for the two weeks.  My home fridge is about 40 degrees F, so that should almost be similar to what my deli case is. 

What kind of final dough temperature do you suggest?  Why did you post that the dough might need a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the baked crumb.  Wouldn’t the dough temper the same way, no matter if it was cold fermented for 3 days or 1 day?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #422 on: November 23, 2012, 08:35:25 AM »
What kind of final dough temperature do you suggest?  Why did you post that the dough might need a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the baked crumb.  Wouldn’t the dough temper the same way, no matter if it was cold fermented for 3 days or 1 day?

Norma,

I would shoot for the normal finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F, but skip the brief rest period at room temperature before going into the refrigerator. As for the tempering of the dough, I was relying on the fact that, all else being equal, a dough with more yeast will rise faster at a given temperature than one with less yeast. As you have learned, when you have made the Buddy's clone emergency doughs with 0.80% IDY and a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough just about explodes after an hour or two. Given enough time, a dough with a small amount of yeast might rise as much as one with more yeast but the temper time will be considerably longer. Alternatively, you can use a higher temper temperature.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #423 on: November 23, 2012, 10:44:56 AM »
Norma,

I would shoot for the normal finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F, but skip the brief rest period at room temperature before going into the refrigerator. As for the tempering of the dough, I was relying on the fact that, all else being equal, a dough with more yeast will rise faster at a given temperature than one with less yeast. As you have learned, when you have made the Buddy's clone emergency doughs with 0.80% IDY and a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough just about explodes after an hour or two. Given enough time, a dough with a small amount of yeast might rise as much as one with more yeast but the temper time will be considerably longer. Alternatively, you can use a higher temper temperature.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me what finished dough temperature to shoot for, but to skip the brief rest period.  I didn’t think about all else being equal that a dough made with more yeast will rise faster at a given temperature than one made with less yeast, like an emergency dough will rise faster.  I was just thinking about when I used 0.60% IDY the dough tempered the same at market.  I also didn’t think about using a higher temper temperature.  I guess I could use the Hatco unit for that if I needed.

I also was thinking more about what I can try and maybe this coming week I will freeze one dough ball to see what happens.  It that works out okay, maybe I can make enough dough balls the week before and freeze them.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #424 on: November 23, 2012, 10:57:13 AM »
I also was thinking more about what I can try and maybe this coming week I will freeze one dough ball to see what happens.  It that works out okay, maybe I can make enough dough balls the week before and freeze them.

Norma,

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to freeze the Buddy's clone doughs, as we both learned in spades when we played around with the Mellow Mushroom frozen dough balls. However, what you will have to decide is how you would like to use the defrosted dough balls, which can affect the amount of yeast to use. For example, if you want the defrosted dough to behave like an emergency dough, you may want to up the amount of yeast at the outset to around 1% IDY to compensate for the losses of fermentation capacity due to the freezing process. Similarly, for a frozen Buddy's clone dough that you used with 0.60% IDY, you may want to increase the amount of yeast to about 0.80% IDY. And so on and so forth.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #425 on: November 23, 2012, 11:55:01 AM »
Norma,

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to freeze the Buddy's clone doughs, as we both learned in spades when we played around with the Mellow Mushroom frozen dough balls. However, what you will have to decide is how you would like to use the defrosted dough balls, which can affect the amount of yeast to use. For example, if you want the defrosted dough to behave like an emergency dough, you may want to up the amount of yeast at the outset to around 1% IDY to compensate for the losses of fermentation capacity due to the freezing process. Similarly, for a frozen Buddy's clone dough that you used with 0.60% IDY, you may want to increase the amount of yeast to about 0.80% IDY. And so on and so forth.

Peter

Peter,

I know we both learned a lot playing around with the Mellow Mushroom frozen dough balls.  Maybe I will also make a emergency Buddy’s clone dough ball tomorrow and up the yeast amount to 1% IDY to see what might happen Tuesday.  At first I didn’t think about upping the amount of yeast for a emergency frozen dough ball.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #426 on: November 23, 2012, 10:42:17 PM »
Norma, what temp/time are you baking at?

I'm having a hard time getting the cheese edge crust as dark as I want it without getting the cheese on top too dark. Any suggestions?
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #427 on: November 23, 2012, 11:26:35 PM »
Norma, what temp/time are you baking at?

I'm having a hard time getting the cheese edge crust as dark as I want it without getting the cheese on top too dark. Any suggestions?


Craig,

As you can see if you scan though this thread for pictures, my experimental Detroit-style pizzas do have different looks on the how dark the cheese edges are.  Some of these pizzas have been baked in my home oven, some at market and my moms gas oven.  At home I first tried baking without a pizza stone, but now do use a pizza stone.  At home I think I have baked at about 475 to 500 degrees F for anywhere from about 12 to 14 minutes, either on the bottom rack, or the second to bottom oven rack.  At market there is a lower head space in the deck oven and the temperature is about 525 to about 538 degrees F, depending on how much the oven doors are opened and what spot the pizzas are placed in the oven.  The baked time at market can vary too from about 11 minutes some seconds to almost 13 minutes something seconds.  I am still not sure if the kind of cheese matters too (I have tried brick Eddie’s from Mandi Cheese and a blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and two mozzarellas).  I kind of like it if the edges aren’t really dark, but just crispy and a little bit dark, if that makes any sense.  I still have to try to press the cheese or cheese into the edges of the pan more to see what happens.  I don’t have problems at market with my Greek-style pizza getting a dark enough edges, something like at Reply 466 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg224614.html#msg224614   That just seems to happen no matter what kind of cheddar I use at the edges when I use the steel blackbuster pans (they are heavier than the pans I am using for these Detroit-style pies).

In my moms gas oven the edges seemed to bake okay and I used a pizza stone.

I am still trying to figure everything out myself.

Where in your oven are you baking your Detroit-style pizza and are you using a stone?  How long are your bakes?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #428 on: November 24, 2012, 03:34:25 PM »
I mixed the one Buddy’s clone dough to be fermented until Tuesday and used 0.20% IDY with a final dough temperature of 78.9 degrees F.  Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball to watch how it ferments until Tuesday.  I used the same way of mixing using the flat beater and mixed on speed one and then rested the dough some and mixed again.  The dough was a little sticky.  The dough ball was placed right into the refrigerator with no rest time at room temperature.  The dough ball was scaled to 9.5 ounces because of Tom’s post. 

This is the print out sheet in case anyone is interested.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #429 on: November 24, 2012, 03:39:59 PM »
I also mixed the emergency Buddy’s clone dough right after I mixed the last Buddy’s clone dough.  I wasn’t sure what final dough temperature to shoot for in the emergency dough, so I went for a little lower final dough temperature.  The final dough temperature was 75.8 degrees F.  I used 1% IDY in the formulation.  I mixed this Buddy’s clone dough in a little different way to see what would happen.  It was mixed on speed 3 in my Kitchen Aid mixer right from the start.  I sure don’t know why, but that seemed to mix the dough better at least for me.  The dough ball wasn’t as sticky for some reason and wanted to hold its shape better when balling.  Both dough balls were oiled with Canola oil.  Poppy seeds were also placed on this dough ball too so I can watch how it ferments when it is defrosted.  From start to finish with this Buddy’s clone dough ball only 10 minutes lapsed until the dough was mixed, scale, balled and put into the freezer.  This dough ball was also scaled to 9.5 ounces.  

I think I am going to try and use my flat beater on my Hobart on Tuesday to see how well it does mix my other Buddy’s clone doughs, since this method seemed to work for me today.  I sure have no idea how the Hobart will do with its flat beater in mixing the dough though.

The print out sheet is also included for this Buddy’s clone dough.

Both doughs were finished about 2:00 PM.

I know I am crazy, but it has been bugging me about how a real Buddy’s pizza tastes and really what one looks like.  I did call Buddy’s today and ordered a small cheese and pepperoni pizza to be shipped.  Dennis told me the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza will taste like it was freshly baked, when reheated.  Dennis took my order and told me it would cost about 50.00, including shipping for the small cheese and pepperoni pizza.  Dennis said the price could be a little more or a little less than the quoted price once it was weighed and ready to be shipped.  Buddy’s is shipping my cheese and pepperoni pizza out on Monday and I should receive it by Wednesday.  Reheating instructions will come with it.  Dennis said Buddy’s could call me with the tracking information when it is shipped, or either I could get that information by email.  I decided on the email because I might not be home when the Buddy’s pizza is shipped.  I know I won’t have any ambience or a road trip when I receive this pizza, like when I went to Mellow Mushroom, Mack’s pizza, or other pizzerias where I got to taste their pizzas and had companions, but at least I will have my curiosity satisfied.   :-D  >:D

Are there any instructions for when I received the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza?  

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #430 on: November 24, 2012, 04:29:49 PM »


Are there any instructions for when I received the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza?  

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #431 on: November 24, 2012, 04:37:47 PM »
I know I am crazy, but it has been bugging me about how a real Buddy’s pizza tastes and really what one looks like.  I did call Buddy’s today and ordered a small cheese and pepperoni pizza to be shipped.  Dennis told me the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza will taste like it was freshly baked, when reheated.  Dennis took my order and told me it would cost about 50.00, including shipping for the small cheese and pepperoni pizza.  Dennis said the price could be a little more or a little less than the quoted price once it was weighed and ready to be shipped.  Buddy’s is shipping my cheese and pepperoni pizza out on Monday and I should receive it by Wednesday.  Reheating instructions will come with it.  Dennis said Buddy’s could call me with the tracking information when it is shipped, or either I could get that information by email.  I decided on the email because I might not be home when the Buddy’s pizza is shipped.  I know I won’t have any ambience or a road trip when I receive this pizza, like when I went to Mellow Mushroom, Mack’s pizza, or other pizzerias where I got to taste their pizzas and had companions, but at least I will have my curiosity satisfied.   :-D  >:D

Are there any instructions for when I received the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza?  


Norma,

Do you know what form the pizza will take? For example, will it be fully baked or partially baked (such as the half-baked pizza discussed at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)? And will it be frozen when you receive it?  

As for other things to do, you should first weigh the pizza, whatever form it takes and preferably in grams, both before and after reheating. If you can note the number of slices of pepperoni and weigh one or two of the slices and measure their diameters, that would be good information also. I realize that counting the number of slices of pepperoni can be a problem since they are underneath the cheese, so don't worry if you find that you can't count them. I don't want you to completely dismantle the pizza and ruin your eating experience just to have that count.

For your own purposes, you might want to note the character of the crust and crumb and their flavor and also the flavor of the cheese, which I assume will be brick cheese. If you see signs of more than one type of cheese on the pizza, knowing that will be useful. If before reheating you can get a sense of the amount of sauce used on the pizza and whether it is smooth or chunky or thick or thin or anything else that might provide a clue as to a possible source (like Stanislaus), that would also be helpful. You might also note how the sauce changed after reheating. For your own purposes, you might note whether the sauce is mild or zesty and see if you can identify herbs, garlic, etc. used in the sauce.

In general, you should use all of your sensory powers and take notes as appropriate. And save any packaging materials that have information about the pizza on them.

It will help if you are sober when you conduct your tests and measurements :-D.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #432 on: November 24, 2012, 05:53:35 PM »
Sit back and enjoy it with your favorite beverage...immensely!  ;D

Bob,

I will sit back and hopefully enjoy Buddy's pizza with one of my favorite beverages, after checking over the pizza closely.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #433 on: November 24, 2012, 06:11:10 PM »
Norma,

Do you know what form the pizza will take? For example, will it be fully baked or partially baked (such as the half-baked pizza discussed at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)? And will it be frozen when you receive it?  

As for other things to do, you should first weigh the pizza, whatever form it takes and preferably in grams, both before and after reheating. If you can note the number of slices of pepperoni and weigh one or two of the slices and measure their diameters, that would be good information also. I realize that counting the number of slices of pepperoni can be a problem since they are underneath the cheese, so don't worry if you find that you can't count them. I don't want you to completely dismantle the pizza and ruin your eating experience just to have that count.

For your own purposes, you might want to note the character of the crust and crumb and their flavor and also the flavor of the cheese, which I assume will be brick cheese. If you see signs of more than one type of cheese on the pizza, knowing that will be useful. If before reheating you can get a sense of the amount of sauce used on the pizza and whether it is smooth or chunky or thick or thin or anything else that might provide a clue as to a possible source (like Stanislaus), that would also be helpful. You might also note how the sauce changed after reheating. For your own purposes, you might note whether the sauce is mild or zesty and see if you can identify herbs, garlic, etc. used in the sauce.

In general, you should use all of your sensory powers and take notes as appropriate. And save any packaging materials that have information about the pizza on them.

It will help if you are sober when you conduct your tests and measurements :-D.

Peter


Peter,

From what Dennis told me the pizza will be partially baked, then frozen, because he said I would finish baking it in my oven.  I could call Buddy’s again to make sure if it will be fully baked or partially baked though. 

Thanks for all the information about how I should weigh the pizza and try to note the number of slices of pepperoni and weigh one or two of the slices of pepperoni.  I can dig though the pizza a little to see how many slices of pepperoni I can see. 

One of the reasons I wanted to purchase a real Buddy’s pizza was to be able to note how the crust and crumb look and their flavor and also the flavor of the cheese.  I also assume the cheese will be brick cheese, but don’t know if it will be mild or aged a little.  I will look and taste for different cheeses on the Buddy’s pizza too.  I will note everything you posted about the sauce.  I will print out your directions and check each thing so I don’t forget to do anything. 

I will take as many pictures and measurements as I can and see if my Buddy’s clones are anything like a real Buddy’s pizza. 

I will make sure I am sober when I take the measurements and notes.  There is always time for a few drinks after the autopsy and the fun of tasting a real Buddy‘s pizza.  :-D I am really looking forward to trying a Buddy’s pizza, so this should be fun.

Dennis told me that Buddy’s pizza would come by FexEx ground, but I could get it overnighted, or in a day, but then the price would double, or almost triple.  I said no thanks that the price was enough for me already. 

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #434 on: November 24, 2012, 08:19:39 PM »

Norma,

Do you know what form the pizza will take? For example, will it be fully baked or partially baked (such as the half-baked pizza discussed at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)? And will it be frozen when you receive it?  

Peter




Peter,

I just called Buddy’s pizza again to check if the Buddy’s pizza I ordered will be partially baked or fully baked.  Allison answered the phone and I told her I had wanted to check on the pizza that was being sent to Pa. that I ordered.  I asked if it would it be partially baked or how it would baked.  Allison told me since the Buddy’s pizza would be shipped to Pa. the pizza would not be baked at all.  I asked again to make sure I understood if the pizza wouldn’t be baked at all and asked would I have to bake the Buddy’s pizza myself.  She said that is correct, that the pizza would just be made then frozen and then I would need to bake the pizza the whole way myself.  Did you ever hear of that before?  I thought my ears were deceiving me when I heard that the second time.  If that is the way the Buddy’s pizza is shipped to me that is all the better in my opinion.  Maybe I need another clarification. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #435 on: November 24, 2012, 08:40:51 PM »
Norma,

I honestly haven't paid much attention to how companies process pizzas for shipment to customers. However, I think that a frozen unbaked Buddy's pizza may well be the best option for our purposes since the starting point for weighing the pizza is an unbaked pizza. However, it isn't clear how you will be instructed to bake the pizza. For example, will the pizza be baked while frozen or after being defrosted? I'm not sure how the answer to that question will affect the weight loss during baking. However, I think you should end up with a pizza that is pretty close to the real deal.

I'm sure you will be able to tell the state of the pizza once you get it. And maybe the instructions will tell you.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #436 on: November 24, 2012, 09:08:17 PM »
Norma,

I honestly haven't paid much attention to how companies process pizzas for shipment to customers. However, I think that a frozen unbaked Buddy's pizza may well be the best option for our purposes since the starting point for weighing the pizza is an unbaked pizza. However, it isn't clear how you will be instructed to bake the pizza. For example, will the pizza be baked while frozen or after being defrosted? I'm not sure how the answer to that question will affect the weight loss during baking. However, I think you should end up with a pizza that is pretty close to the real deal.

I'm sure you will be able to tell the state of the pizza once you get it. And maybe the instructions will tell you.

Peter

Peter,

Dennis told me today I would have to bake the pizza, but I thought it would be partially par-baked.  He said it would come with instructions though, but I sure don’t know what they are.  I don’t understand how a frozen Buddy’s pizza could taste like a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza if a steel pan isn’t used at home.  I think I am going to call Buddy’s again tomorrow to see if I can find out more information about how I am supposed to bake their frozen pizza if I don’t have a steel pan and see what they say.  I only can hope the frozen Buddy’s pizza will end up with a pizza that is pretty close to the real deal.  Dennis told me the Buddy’s pizza will be shipped in dry ice, so I would believe it would stay frozen.  I would think the Buddy’s frozen pizza would have to be defrosted to bake it.

If the Buddy’s pizza is a frozen unbaked pizza I also think that might be our best option since the starting point for weighing the pizza is an unbaked one like you posted. 

I will post if I find out anymore information tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #437 on: November 24, 2012, 09:29:55 PM »
Norma,

Knowing that the Detroit Pizza Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas, I went to their website where I found the instructions that they send to mail order customers, at http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/. It appears that the pizzas can be baked either in the defrosted state or the frozen state. It also looks like the sauce is kept in a small container separate from the rest of the pizza. It would be nice if Buddy's does that also.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #438 on: November 24, 2012, 10:09:27 PM »
Norma,

Knowing that the Detroit Pizza Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas, I went to their website where I found the instructions that they send to mail order customers, at http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/. It appears that the pizzas can be baked either in the defrosted state or the frozen state. It also looks like the sauce is kept in a small container separate from the rest of the pizza. It would be nice if Buddy's does that also.

Peter


Peter,

I didn’t know Detroit Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas also.  They sure are a lot cheaper than Buddy’s mail order pizzas.  I see it appears that the pizzas can be baked either in the defrosted state or the frozen state.  Maybe I can ask Buddy’s if the sauce comes separate, or if I can get it that way.  I wish Buddy’s frozen pizza would come all separated and then I could assemble it and weight each ingredient.  That sure would be convenient, but sure don’t think that will happen.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #439 on: November 25, 2012, 08:12:04 AM »
Norma,

I didn’t know Detroit Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas also.  They sure are a lot cheaper than Buddy’s mail order pizzas.

That may well be true. But, according to http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/, the Detroit Style Pizza Co's pizzas are cut into six slices, whereas the Buddy's pizzas are cut into four slices. Do you think that you can handle eating six slices?

Maybe I can ask Buddy’s if the sauce comes separate, or if I can get it that way.

That is a good idea. If they can't do it that way maybe you can ask them if they can give you some extra sauce on the side, maybe in the same amount as they regularly put on their pizzas so that you can dip the parts of their pizza not covered by sauce into the extra sauce. Or you can tell them that you will be eating their pizza with your great granddaughter and she really, really loves extra sauce to dip her pizza into. Only a cruel-hearted person could turn down such a request.

BTW, I noticed that the Detroit Pizza Style Co mail order pizzas are 7" x 9". Apparently there is an inch lost through shrinkage during baking in the 8" x 10" pans. Also, that company uses both mozzarella and brick cheese for their pizzas, and not Jack cheese as has been reported in some reviews.

Peter


 

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