Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

If anyone is interested in the times and where my Buddy’s pizza is now this is what it says from the tracking number Buddy’s gave me.

Date/Time Activity Location Details
Nov 27, 2012 8:41 PM
Arrived at FedEx location
LEWISBERRY, PA
Nov 27, 2012 2:31 AM
In transit
PERRYSBURG, OH
Nov 27, 2012 12:55 AM
Left FedEx origin facility
LIVONIA, MI
Nov 26, 2012 6:00 PM
Arrived at FedEx location
LIVONIA, MI
Nov 26, 2012 4:25 PM
Picked up
LIVONIA, MI

This is also the Shipment Facts

Service type
FedEx Ground-U.S.
Weight
19.3 lbs/8.8 kg

The tracking times are a little messed up, from me copying them and pasting them, but at least the Buddy's pizza is in Pa. now. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

You can read Peter’s post at Reply 28 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451 You will see where Peter posted that he found an old post of his where he suggested in the last paragraph of his link that a hydration of around 70% be used for a Buddy’s clone.  You can also read what else Peter posted about he thinks Trenton Bill and I stumbled upon a Buddy’s clone, or it appears that way.  Peter can correct me if I am wrong.

What do you think of a hydration around 70%.  I am using a hydration 71.023% on this thread.  I think Peter knows what he was posting about.

Craig and Norma,

I think the safe zone from a hydration standpoint is perhaps in the 70-80% range. It could be even higher (see my Randazzo discussion below) but I think it depends on who is making the dough and the ability of that person to work with high hydration doughs. For example, I believe that Jet's, which makes a square pizza similar to a Detroit style pizza, uses a hydration of around 65%. In the context of a nationwide franchising program, that is perhaps as high as they dare to go with the type of workers (often young with limited experience) that they hire in their stores. Norma, who is more experienced than most, and knows how to work with high hydration doughs, has been using a hydration of around 71%. Most of the dough balls she has shown have tended to be round (mostly to use the poppy seed trick) but if you look at Reply 170 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221785.html#msg221785, you can see what the dough balls look like before she forms them into round balls.

With respect to the Hunt boys at Via 313, looking at the dough balls in their pans as shown in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html, I would guess that they are using a hydration that may be more than what Norma has been using. But I know that the Hunt boys can also handle high hydration doughs. In the case of Shawn Randazzo, it was recently reported by a skilled pizza operator at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84302#p84302, that Shawn's Detroit style dough as he saw it at one of the pizza shows was so wet that it was like a step above being batter. For that to be, I think he would be using above 80% hydration, and maybe well above 80%. It was intentional that he used a very high hydration dough, much higher than is/was being used by Cloverleaf Pizza, which he and his mother own. They are executing on a very aggressive marketing program and apparently a high hydration dough is at the center of that program, especially since that was the dough the earned him the 2012 World Champion Pizza Maker of the Year award at the 2012 International Pizza Expo (http://www.prweb.com/releases/detroit/pizza/prweb9316391.htm) .

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I see Shawn sends his pizzas out baked.  Do you think they are fully baked?

Norma,

I could be wrong but I read the press release on the mail order pizzas to mean that the pizzas are fully baked.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

For the 0.20% IDY Buddy's clone dough ball that you showed at Reply 491 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225446.html#msg225446 and for the 1% IDY Buddy's clone frozen dough ball that you showed at Reply 495 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225452.html#msg225452, the spacings of the poppy seeds at the times that the photos were taken suggest an increase in the volume of the two dough balls of around 68%. With the tempering in both cases, it looks like the yeast numbers worked. You also demonstrated that it is possible to make frozen Buddy's clone doughs.

Can you compare the results of the two recent pizzas, one using a cold fermented dough and the other using a frozen emergency type dough, with the room temperature emergency type Buddy's clone pizzas?

Peter

[norma427]

Craig and Norma,

I think the safe zone from a hydration standpoint is perhaps in the 70-80% range. It could be even higher (see my Randazzo discussion below) but I think it depends on who is making the dough and the ability of that person to work with high hydration doughs. For example, I believe that Jet's, which makes a square pizza similar to a Detroit style pizza, uses a hydration of around 65%. In the context of a nationwide franchising program, that is perhaps as high as they dare to go with the type of workers (often young with limited experience) that they hire in their stores. Norma, who is more experienced than most, and knows how to work with high hydration doughs, has been using a hydration of around 71%. Most of the dough balls she has shown have tended to be round (mostly to use the poppy seed trick) but if you look at Reply 170 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221785.html#msg221785, you can see what the dough balls look like before she forms them into round balls.

With respect to the Hunt boys at Via 313, looking at the dough balls in their pans as shown in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html, I would guess that they are using a hydration that may be more than what Norma has been using. But I know that the Hunt boys can also handle high hydration doughs. In the case of Shawn Randazzo, it was recently reported by a skilled pizza operator at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84302#p84302, that Shawn's Detroit style dough as he saw it at one of the pizza shows was so wet that it was like a step above being batter. For that to be, I think he would be using above 80% hydration, and maybe well above 80%. It was intentional that he used a very high hydration dough, much higher than is/was being used by at Cloverleaf Pizza, which he and his mother own. They are executing on a very aggressive marketing program and apparently a high hydration dough is at the center of that program, especially since that was the dough the earned him the 2012 World Champion Pizza Maker of the Year award at the 2012 International Pizza Expo (http://www.prweb.com/releases/detroit/pizza/prweb9316391.htm) .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting you think the safe zone for a Buddy’s pizza in perhaps in the 70-80% range.  An 80% hydration dough with a lower protein content flour, or even a higher protein flour would be hard for me to handle unless I almost poured the dough into the pan.  I can’t see normal employees being able to handle much over 70% hydration, unless the dough isn’t balled, or they have a lot of experience with high hydration doughs.  If my doughs I have tried on this thread were much higher in hydration I probably would have had to use more stretch and folds.

I really don’t know how high the hydration doughs are that Hunt boys dough balls are in that article on Slice, but couldn’t they be just mixed doughs and not balled?  They look to me like some of my doughs looked before balling.  I believe the Hunt boys can manage a higher hydration dough than I can.  I see what you mean about Shaw’s Detroit style doughs being like a step above a batter from the link on PMQ Think Tank.

Norma 

[norma427]

Norma,

I could be wrong but I read the press release on the mail order pizzas to mean that the pizzas are fully baked.

Peter

Peter,

I also read the press release and thought the same thing as you, but wondered how you would reheat a whole pizza and not dry it out some if it is fully baked.  I guess I wonder too much. 

Norma

[norma427]

Looking forward to the report on the Buddy's!  As far as "tang" in cheese, this is lactic acid, like in yogurt, and "sharp" cheddars that have not been aged a long time are often tangy without the complexity added through longer aging (the nutty flavors for instance).  I did a little experiment with the cheese on last Sunday's deep-dish pizzas - both had the standard two oz of white NY sharp cheddar on the edges and a mix of part-skim and whole milk (low moisture) mozzarella across the tops, but on one I added 0.5 oz of the sharp cheddar to the mix.  The difference between the two was subtle and if you didn't know what it was you might not pick it out and say "extra cheddar!" but the cheddar version was deemed better by the tasters.

Skee,

I am sorry I missed your post last evening.  Thank for explaining how the “tang” in cheese can be obtained. 

Your experiment was interesting with the 0.5 ounces of sharp cheddar added to your mix of cheeses.  Glad to hear the cheddar version with the sharp cheddar in the mix was deemed better by your taste testers.
 
I have been keeping a block of Nasonville 3 month old aged cheddar in my fridge to see if it tastes any different when used on the boardwalk style of pizza.  Before it was a little too mild for that type of pizza.  I wanted to experiment to see how it might age in my fridge in the sealed package.  I have been looking for that “tang” in the boardwalk thread for a long while (over 2 years).  I did achieve it one time, but that was with the Nasonville cheddar that was aged for 1 year and was baked in my moms oven.  When I went to make the same pizza at market the flavor profile changed somehow and was a little too “tangy”.    Oh, what we go though to try and get what we want.  This pizza obsession drives me almost crazy sometimes. 

Norma

[norma427]

From Peter’s one post at Reply 501 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225466.html#msg225466 I decided to see if I could watch the Youtube link of when Shawn Randazzo made his award winning pizza at the Pizza Expo and see if I could see how his dough might have looked in the steel pan.  I really couldn’t see how his dough looked, but it does look like his dough might have been higher in the pan than my doughs. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3DRNF4YHY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3DRNF4YHY</a>

I don’t know why I couldn’t watch the video from the link Peter gave.  At 0.20 seconds and a little after the dough can be seen in the steel pan, but not a close-up shot.  I thought the was an interesting video.  I think in the video it says Shawn used a 3 cheese blend on his award winning pizza.

This is a picture I copied off of Detroit Style Pizza Co website of Shaw Randazzo with another Detroit-style pizza he made with his award.  I wondered why on his website he had pictures of Old Forge Style Thin Crust pizzas if you watch the slideshow on  top of the website. http://detroitstylepizza.co/   I saw when I downloaded the menu at http://detroitstylepizza.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/7-1-12-DSPC-JumboBack.pdf that they do offer “Old Forge Style” Thin Crust Pizzas.

From Detroit Style Pizza Co Twitter page https://twitter.com/DetStylePizzaCo

Shawn Randazzo and Linda Michaels, owners of Detroit Style Pizza Co., know first hand the benefits of bringing in a coach. Randazzo and Michaels are a mother and son team who hired a coach even though they didn't have the money to do so. In a recent interview, they told me that they knew they had to do something to improve their business. They were doing the same things over and over and getting the same results. They both recognized that they needed to get outside help in order to take their business to the next level.

http://www.fastcompany.com/3002882/if-tom-brady-can-improve-so-can-you

From Forbes

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertamatuson/2012/11/16/its-all-in-the-family-sons-and-moms-in-business-together/

From candgnews.com

http://www.candgnews.com/news/local-restaurant-wins-world-pizza-making-title

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

For the 0.20% IDY Buddy's clone dough ball that you showed at Reply 491 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225446.html#msg225446 and for the 1% IDY Buddy's clone frozen dough ball that you showed at Reply 495 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225452.html#msg225452, the spacings of the poppy seeds at the times that the photos were taken suggest an increase in the volume of the two dough balls of around 68%. With the tempering in both cases, it looks like the yeast numbers worked. You also demonstrated that it is possible to make frozen Buddy's clone doughs.

Can you compare the results of the two recent pizzas, one using a cold fermented dough and the other using a frozen emergency type dough, with the room temperature emergency type Buddy's clone pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing the calculations and telling me how much my 2 dough balls increased by around 68% from the spacings of the poppy seeds.  Yes, the yeast numbers did work well that you gave me to try for both doughs with some tempering of the dough balls.  Thanks for giving me the right amounts of IDY to try.  I had wanted to get the dough ball with the 1% IDY added out of the freezer on Monday and let it thaw out in the refrigerator, but wondered if it might then ferment too much with that much yeast added until the next day.  I wonder what would have happened if I would have taken the dough ball with 1% IDY out of the freezer and left it defrost in the fridge until the next day. 

To answer your question about comparing the results of the two recent pizzas, with the room temperature emergency type of Buddy’s clone pizza, I would say they almost tasted the same to me.  As I posted I liked the second Buddy’s clone attempt I made yesterday better.  That was the one made from the frozen dough ball.  I really can’t say, but think I liked it better because it had a browner and crisper bottom crust.  I really don’t know if that was from using Canola oil, or if how much of any kind of oil matters.  I would think that how much oil in the steel pan matters, but haven’t found that magic spot each time, or either the bake time is off.  I still will say that using the AMPI mild white cheddar and my mozzarellas in comparison to using the brick cheese from Mandi Cheese really don’t give the pizzas that much of a different taste.  I think what really stands out in any of these pizzas is the oiling off of any of the cheeses, the caramelization of the edges and the soft and nice texture of the crumb.  The brick cheese does oil off well and is buttery tasting and so does the AMPI mild white cheddar and my blend of mozzarellas.  It is kind of weird, but with this type of pizza it really doesn’t seem to matter how the dough is tempered in how the crumb tastes after the bake.  So far it seems like it tastes almost the same to me.  I haven’t tried a long ferment though.  I also thought it was kind of weird too in the two pizzas I made yesterday that the pepperoni really couldn’t be tasted a lot, something like my other experiments with the pepperoni under the cheese.  The regular pepperoni did oil off more than the brand Steve brought me though.  I think in one or two of the pictures it can be seen there was a slight gum line on the first pizza I made yesterday in the middle of the pizza, but in the second pizza there was not any gum line.

I asked Tom Kiefer yesterday if the brick cheese he wholesales iare mild, or does it have a tang.  He said he would ask the producer of the brick cheese if they have two varieties of the brick cheese and might be able to get me two samples to try on my Detroit-style pizzas if they do offer two different brick cheeses.

I wanted to ask you another question since you think Detroit-style pizzas can be in the 70-80% hydration range, or maybe higher, if there is anyway we will really know what hydration Buddy’s is using?

Norma

[norma427]

The FedEx truck just brought me the Buddy’s pizza.  I didn’t open the box yet, but sure don’t think I am ready to eat a Buddy’s pizza so early in the morning.  I didn’t even eat breakfast yet.   Now I wonder what I should do.  I didn’t expect the Buddy’s pizza to arrive so early.

Norma

[norma427]

I opened the box from Buddy’s pizza and if anyone is interested this what the pizza and extra sauce look like and all the packing materials.  I put everything back in the shipping box, until I am better prepared to look at it more.  Everything is freezing cold.  When I handled the extra sauce it almost froze my fingers.

I did bring a 8”x10” steel pan home from market, but don’t think the instructions call for using a steel pan.  The instructions do say a baking tray can be used, but wouldn’t think that would be a steel pan.  I did bring my IR gun home from market so I can make sure the temperature in my oven is between 375-400 degrees F.    I am not too sure of how to retain all of the stuff on the Buddy’s pizza during the bake if it isn‘t kept in some kind of a pan. 

Any further ideas of what to do?

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thanks for doing the calculations and telling me how much my 2 dough balls increased by around 68% from the spacings of the poppy seeds.  Yes, the yeast numbers did work well that you gave me to try for both doughs with some tempering of the dough balls.  Thanks for giving me the right amounts of IDY to try.  I had wanted to get the dough ball with the 1% IDY added out of the freezer on Monday and let it thaw out in the refrigerator, but wondered if it might then ferment too much with that much yeast added until the next day.  I wonder what would have happened if I would have taken the dough ball with 1% IDY out of the freezer and left it defrost in the fridge until the next day.

I think you would have been OK had you decided to let the frozen dough defrost overnight in the deli case. One of the nice things about pan pizzas is that you don't have to worry about the effects of long fermentations on handling of the dough. Even doughs on the verge of overfermenting or overproofing won't be particularly hard to handle when they are in the pans.

I wanted to ask you another question since you think Detroit-style pizzas can be in the 70-80% hydration range, or maybe higher, if there is anyway we will really know what hydration Buddy’s is using?

Absent insider information or having a real Buddy's dough ball to observe and feel and maybe even run some tests, there is no way that I can think of to ascertain the hydration value for the Buddy's dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,
I think you would have been OK had you decided to let the frozen dough defrost overnight in the deli case. One of the nice things about pan pizzas is that you don't have to worry about the effects of long fermentations on handling of the dough. Even doughs on the verge of overfermenting or overproofing won't be particularly hard to handle when they are in the pans.

Absent insider information or having a real Buddy's dough ball to observe and feel and maybe even run some tests, there is no way that I can think of to ascertain the hydration value for the Buddy's dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you think it would have been okay if I defrosted the dough ball overnight in the deli case.  I kept it at home until yesterday morning because I wasn’t sure about the weather.  I will make another frozen dough ball this week and let it defrost in the deli case until the next day.  I didn’t think about not having to worry about the effects of long fermentation on handling the dough since it is put into a pan.  I also wanted to watch how the poppy seeds spacings changed while the dough ball defrosted.

I can understand there is really no way of knowing what hydration Buddy’s dough balls are unless someone has a real Buddy’s dough ball or there is insider information.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I opened the box from Buddy’s pizza and if anyone is interested this what the pizza and extra sauce look like and all the packing materials.  I put everything back in the shipping box, until I am better prepared to look at it more.  Everything is freezing cold.  When I handled the extra sauce it almost froze my fingers.

Any further ideas of what to do?

Norma,

At this point, I would just follow the instructions sent to you by Buddy's. Eventually, you will want to weigh the container with the extra sauce and, once the sauce has been removed from the container, either to use it on the pizza or to transfer it to another container for future study or tests, and weigh the empty container itself (after rinsing, of course). Knowing the combined weight of the container and sauce and the weight of the empty container will enable us to calculate how much sauce was in the container. Hopefully, they sent you an amount of sauce that they use on their own pizzas.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

At this point, I would just follow the instructions sent to you by Buddy's. Eventually, you will want to weigh the container with the extra sauce and, once the sauce has been removed from the container, either to use it on the pizza or to transfer it to another container for future study or tests, and weigh the empty container itself (after rinsing, of course). Knowing the combined weight of the container and sauce and the weight of the empty container will enable us to calculate how much sauce was in the container. Hopefully, they sent you an amount of sauce that they use on their own pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to just follow the instructions sent to me by Buddy’s.  I will weigh the container with the extra sauce.  I did ask for the amount of sauce that is on a small Buddy’s pizza, but have no idea if that is what they sent me.

I will taste the sauce and then freeze it again.  I invited Steve over so he could taste the Buddy’s pizza sometime later today.  He knows what my Buddy’s clones have tasted like and also my sauces and cheeses, so he should be a good one to compare my Buddy’s clones to a real Buddy pizza in the taste of everything.

I am going to take the Buddy’s pizza and sauce out of the box now and put them into the refrigerator until later today.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

I am not too sure of how to retain all of the stuff on the Buddy’s pizza during the bake if it isn‘t kept in some kind of a pan. 

Any further ideas of what to do?

Norma

Norma,
Have you ever reheated any of your Buddy's clones? I think that original Buddy's you have there looks like it is parbaked quite well and given their own directions I see on the box I wouldn't think you'll have any problems with ingredients overflowing. They recommend such a short reheat time...if it was me, I think I would probably reheat on a screen and if you don't want to preheat a stone to place the screened pie onto...then just go without a stone in the oven.
Bob

[norma427]

Norma,
Have you ever reheated any of your Buddy's clones? I think that original Buddy's you have there looks like it is parbaked quite well and given their own directions I see on the box I wouldn't think you'll have any problems with ingredients overflowing. They recommend such a short reheat time...if it was me, I think I would probably reheat on a screen and if you don't want to preheat a stone to place the screened pie onto...then just go without a stone in the oven.
Bob

Bob,

Yes, I have reheated slices of the Buddy’s clones attempts I have made, but not a whole pizza.  I didn’t remove the plastic bag, but the Buddy’s pizza is defrosting on my kitchen table.  To me the sides of the Buddy’s pizza don’t look like they appear to be baked enough.  I didn’t look at the bottom crust yet, because there is a cardboard bottom on the Buddy’s pizza in the plastic bag.  Steve is coming over soon and we will think over how we want to try and bake the Buddy’s pizza the rest of the way.  I don’t know if I will use my steel pan or not.  It all depends on how brown the bottom crust is of the Buddy’s pizza.

I really don’t want to lose any toppings, sides, etc. either in the final bake to be able to take the weight of the Buddy’s pizza after baking, so I am now leaning towards using something to bake the pizza in. 

Thanks for your ideas!

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Just a thought I had after reading that you don't think the Buddy's edge is very browned...maybe brush some melted butter on the crust? I know that you know about these things, Norma, and I'm just throwing ideas out there cause sometimes(if you're like me) you don't always think/remember all the tools/weapons we have to skin a cat as they say....especially when excited about something, which I can imagine you probably are about reheating this Buddy's pizza(I know I am and I'm not even eating any of it!  )