Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 165586 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #680 on: December 05, 2012, 01:09:26 PM »
The fourth Buddyís clone attempt was made using the same AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas, but Steve and I baked applewood smoked bacon in the oven first for that pizza.  We also forgot to add sauce to that pizza, but it really didnít need it.  I sure donít know why, but this pizza and the last pizza I made for the day had a much crisper bottom, although it still was very easy to bite.  The dough fermented in the steel pans longer for those last two bakes, so I wonder if somehow the longer ferments make the bottom crisper and a little bit browner.  I am still trying to figure that out and it has me stumped.  The texture of the crumb was better too on the last two bakes. 

Norma,

Since the last two doughs spent more time in the pans, it is quite possible that they developed increased insulative properties that forced the oven heat to concentrate more on the bottom crust rather than passing through the crust to work on the cheeses, sauce and toppings. As a result, the bottom crust gets crispier. You can read more on these principles at Reply 24 and the links contained therein, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831.

Peter


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #681 on: December 05, 2012, 07:09:14 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the comprehensive report and for Steve's input also. It looks like you covered a lot of ground for this style.

After studying the report, I have the following thoughts and comments:

1. For the two pizzas that you weighed after baking (the first and fifth pizzas), the weight losses were 6.92% (for the first pizza) and 8.36% (the last pizza). The weights of those pizzas before baking was 22.25 ounces. The baked weights of the two pizzas, at 587 grams (20.71 ounces) and 578 grams (20.39 ounces), were both more than the final baked weight of the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza that you recently purchased. However, if we use the average slice weight of 145 grams for the slices that dicepackage purchased from Buddy's, which was also from a cheese and pepperoni pizza, the total baked weight is 4 x 145 = 580 grams. So, your baked weights of 587 grams and 578 grams were very close to the dicepackage calculated weight. I have no good explanation for why the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza you purchased weighed less than the ones you made or even the total calculated weight based on dicepackage's number. Maybe Buddy's uses less cheese and possibly less sauce (by weight).

2. Of all the pizzas you made, I thought that the third pizza that you prebaked and then added the sauce (which you had forgotten to add at the outset) looked most like the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza that you recently purchased, including what appears to be a comparable height. The third pizza had the blend of the AMPI white cheddar and the mozzarella cheeses. You mentioned the death of the yeast a couple of times in respect of the third pizza but it is the moisture content of the dough that predominantly governs the oven spring of the dough. The yeast will be completely dead when the internal temperature of the crust is 145 degrees. The starches start to gelatinize at 140 degrees F, and be completely gelatinized (but still swelling) at 153 degrees F. If you pulled the pizza out of the oven after the starches had completely gelatinized and set, I don't think that you could have gotten the crust to rise anymore after you put the sauce on the pizza and returned it to the oven. Maybe it was serendipitous that you forgot to add the sauce because maybe that helps explain why the cheese and pepperoni pizza you recently purchased from Buddy's did not seem to have a great deal of height. That pizza was also a parbaked (partially baked) pizza. If you'd like to read how a pizza changes during the course of its bake, you might take a look at page 16 of the Pendleton Flour booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf.

3. It appears that a 9-ounce dough ball was not too small for a 4-square pizza. Of course, we can't say with any certainty that that is the weight of dough ball that Buddy's uses for its small square pizzas. For example, if Buddy's actually uses less cheese than 8 ounces and/or a small amount of sauce, because the cheese and sauce are not weighed, then the dough ball could weigh more and you can end up with the same pre-baked pizza weight.

4. It seems that the brick cheese can brown if the temperature of the oven is high enough. In fact, your mozzarella based pizzas seemed to do better than the brick cheese in that regard. That is what threw me off when I tried to guess which pizza had only the mozzarella cheese. You indicated that your oven temperature at one point was 538 degrees F. Buddy's apparently uses a bake temperature of around 495 degrees F. The cheese color standard that I have used for a Buddy's pizza is essentially the one shown in the photo of http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. There are many other photos of Buddy's pizzas that appear to be consistent with that photo.

5. It appears that there are many possible cheese options for the Detroit style pizza, although it appears from your tests that mozzarella cheese only is not the best choice. However, mozzarella cheese with another cheese, such as cheddar or brick, look to be reasonable choices.

6. I do not sense that dicing the cheeses affected the pizzas you made. Buddy's uses a diced cheese (brick) but that may be because they believe, as Grande often says, that a diced cheese is easier to put on a pizza and it may actually require less cheese for the same coverage when compared with shredded cheese. I might add that there are some pizza operators who do not agree with Grande on this point.

7. Canola oil looks to be a good choice to achieve a crispy bottom crust. As previously noted, Buddy's uses oil in its pans. The two oils that I have identified for this purpose are soybean oil and canola oil.

Peter



Peter,

Thank you for studying what I did and for your thoughts and comments.

1.  It is interesting to see the weight losses for the first and fifth pizzas.  I would think since Buddyís doesnít weight out their ingredients for their dressings there could possibly be different final baked weights in their pizza also.  I could have used less sauce in one of those pizzas, and was going to do that, but thought I would keep all the ingredients the same for those two pizzas to keep things as simple as possible.

2.  I sure donít know if my third pizza really looked like the real Buddyís pizza cheese and pepperoni I recently purchased, but think by what I saw last week Buddyís pizza was really higher in height. 

I know I mentioned the death of the yeast a couple of time in respect to the third pizza, but didnít think about the moisture content of the dough and that is what predominantly govern the oven spring of the dough.  I think what might have happened is the starches might have been completely gelatinized when I pulled that pizza out of the oven, but sure donít know.  Thanks for the link to the Pendleton Flour booklet to explain how pizza changes during the  course of its bake.  I recall studying how that happens when I worked on the Ultra-thin crust thread, but didnít remember it all.

3.  No, the 9 ounce dough ball didnít seem to small for a 4-square pizza.  I know we canít say with any certainty that it might be the weight of a dough ball Buddyís uses though.  Do you want any more weighing on final bakes in the future for a cheese and pepperoni pizza or any different amounts of ingredients in another attempt?  I also wondered what amounts of dough I should use for both of my steel pans next week. 

4.  Yes, the brick cheese can brown.  Sorry the mozzarellas browning threw you off when you tried to guess the pizza which only had mozzarella as the cheese.  I know the picture you use for the cheese standard for Buddyís pizza, but that pizza doesnít look to me to have much caramelization on the edges, or either I have been looking for more caramelization which I personally like.  The bottom side edge closest to the bottom of the screen doesnít look like there is a lot of caramelization.

5.  I think there are other cheese options for a Detroit style pizza.  I wouldnít exactly say the mozzarellas were bad on a Detroit style pizza, but think I like some cheddar better, or the brick cheese.  I think if a normal person would have tasted the mozzarella only pizza they would have like it.

6.  The dicing of the brick cheese didnít seem to make any difference to me in how the first pizza baked. 

7.  Canola oil also seems to me like it a good choice to achieve a crispy bottom crust.  I wonder if I should also try soybean oil.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #682 on: December 05, 2012, 07:13:19 PM »
Norma,

Since the last two doughs spent more time in the pans, it is quite possible that they developed increased insulative properties that forced the oven heat to concentrate more on the bottom crust rather than passing through the crust to work on the cheeses, sauce and toppings. As a result, the bottom crust gets crispier. You can read more on these principles at Reply 24 and the links contained therein, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for explaining the since the last two dough spent more time in the pans that it was quite possible that they developed increased insulative properties that forced the oven heat to concentrate more on the bottom crust.  Thanks for the link to the principles on that.  It was interesting.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #683 on: December 05, 2012, 08:34:46 PM »
Norma,

No, the 9 ounce dough ball didnít seem too small for a 4-square pizza.  I know we canít say with any certainty that it might be the weight of a dough ball Buddyís uses though.  Do you want any more weighing on final bakes in the future for a cheese and pepperoni pizza or any different amounts of ingredients in another attempt?  I also wondered what amounts of dough I should use for both of my steel pans next week.
 
I wouldn't mind if you took future "before" and "after" weighings of Buddy's clone cheese and pepperoni pizzas that are baked at market since that would give me some more data points to consider in relation to the other such pizzas you have baked at market. As for the dough ball weights to use with your pans next week, that is up to you. If you preferred the roughly 9.75-ounce dough balls that you previously used over the 9-ounce dough balls, then you can certainly go with the larger dough balls. If you decide to make an 8-square pizza, you would double the amount of dough that you use for the 4-square pizza.

Yes, the brick cheese can brown.  I know the picture you use for the cheese standard for Buddyís pizza, but that pizza doesnít look to me to have much caramelization on the edges, or either I have been looking for more caramelization which I personally like.  The bottom side edge closest to the bottom of the screen doesnít look like there is a lot of caramelization.
You are correct that the photo I referenced was to emphasize the color of the cheese on Buddy's pizzas. When I researched photos of Buddy's pizzas, using the Google Images feature, I saw many different photos of Buddy's pizzas yet the color of the cheeses was pretty consistent (with little browning). But there were variations in the degree of caramelization of the cheeses. I saw examples of little caramelization of the cheese (see, for example, http://www.chicagomag.com/images/cache/e7f4069d83319d03a1f38e742de35832.jpeg) and a lot of caramelization of the cheese (see, for example, http://www.michigan.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/buddys-pizza-detroit.jpg). I suppose in any given case a diner at Buddy's may not know what he or she is likely to get in the way of caramelization of the cheeses.

Canola oil also seems to me like it a good choice to achieve a crispy bottom crust.  I wonder if I should also try soybean oil.
It might be interesting at some point to see if soybean oil works as well as the canola oil, especially since I was told by a manager in the Buddy's location I called that they were using soybean oil. It's a "trust but verify" sort of thing. But there is no urgency on this matter.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #684 on: December 06, 2012, 08:41:23 AM »
Norma,
  
I wouldn't mind if you took future "before" and "after" weighings of Buddy's clone cheese and pepperoni pizzas that are baked at market since that would give me some more data points to consider in relation to the other such pizzas you have baked at market. As for the dough ball weights to use with your pans next week, that is up to you. If you preferred the roughly 9.75-ounce dough balls that you previously used over the 9-ounce dough balls, then you can certainly go with the larger dough balls. If you decide to make an 8-square pizza, you would double the amount of dough that you use for the 4-square pizza.
You are correct that the photo I referenced was to emphasize the color of the cheese on Buddy's pizzas. When I researched photos of Buddy's pizzas, using the Google Images feature, I saw many different photos of Buddy's pizzas yet the color of the cheeses was pretty consistent (with little browning). But there were variations in the degree of caramelization of the cheeses. I saw examples of little caramelization of the cheese (see, for example, http://www.chicagomag.com/images/cache/e7f4069d83319d03a1f38e742de35832.jpeg) and a lot of caramelization of the cheese (see, for example, http://www.michigan.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/buddys-pizza-detroit.jpg). I suppose in any given case a diner at Buddy's may not know what he or she is likely to get in the way of caramelization of the cheeses.
It might be interesting at some point to see if soybean oil works as well as the canola oil, especially since I was told by a manager in the Buddy's location I called that they were using soybean oil. It's a "trust but verify" sort of thing. But there is no urgency on this matter.

Peter

Peter,

I will do the weighings before and after of future Buddyís clone cheese and pepperoni pizzas that are baked at market to give you some more data points.   I liked the 9-ounce dough balls, so I think I will continue using them.  Thanks for telling me just to double the dough balls for the 8-square pan.  I know I messed-up on that before.  It makes it easier to just use the expanded dough calculation tool if the weight is just doubled when I am making a larger batch of dough for two sizes of pizzas.

I forgot to mention in my report yesterday that the frozen dough ball, that was defrosted, was the hardest to press out and wanted to stretch back a lot even though it was warmed-up for a long while.  That was the dough ball I had put in my pizza prep fridge on Monday.  I have no idea if I would have floured that dough ball first if it would have been easier to stretch though.  Maybe I somehow over-mixed that one.

I can see what you meant by using the Google Images feature to look at different photos of Buddyís pizza how the color of the cheeses stays pretty consistent.  

I saw this picture of ďThe DetroiterĒ on Buddyís facebook page at Conant location at McNichols in Detroit. The man that posted the picture said he has been hitting up Buddyís since 1958.  Another poster on the same picture said The pizza at the 6 mile store tastes better than any of the other stores; though they are all good. Wes Pikula posted and said its because the pans and oven that have been in use for 50 years... Yum with a smiley face.  I sure donít think they use the same oven for 50 years at that location, but could be wrong.  That post on facebook was from October of this year.

That picture of ďThe DetroiterĒ looks about how I would like my Buddyís pizzas to look.  It has nice caramelized edges and what I would like in browning of the cheese.

If I remember I will try soybean oil to oil one steel pan this week.  I had thought I had like MFB better, but after the 4th and 5th pizza on Tuesday think I like Canola oil the best right now.  I know my steel pans are getting seasoned better with each use, but my steel pans still have a long way to go.  There is no trouble now with getting the Buddyís clones out of the steel pans.  I just take a big metal spatula and they slip right out.  I also ordered some more 8Ēx10Ē steel pans the other week from Detroit Style Pizza Co but havenít heard a thing from them about the steel pans.  Steve had ordered some steel pan too, way before I did and he said he hasnít received his steel pans yet and never even received an email thanking him for his purchases.  I had received an email right after I made the purchase of my larger steel pans before, but mine had taken about 2 weeks to get to me.  Steve and I talked and said we wondered why they couldnít just hire someone to season the steel pans so customers could get them quicker.  It makes me wonder how many people are ordering steel pans now.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 08:43:23 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #685 on: December 06, 2012, 09:40:11 AM »
Norma,

I liked the 9-ounce dough balls, so I think I will continue using them.  Thanks for telling me just to double the dough balls for the 8-square pan.  I know I messed-up on that before.  It makes it easier to just use the expanded dough calculation tool if the weight is just doubled when I am making a larger batch of dough for two sizes of pizzas.
One of the possible advantages of using a high-yeast, emergency type dough for a Buddy's clone pizza, such as one of your recent 9-ounce dough balls, is that it will rise much more than one with a lot less yeast. For example, if you made a dough ball of equivalent weight but with a lot less yeast and cold fermented it for a few days, you might not get the same degree of rise (for a comparable temper time), making it necessary to use more dough the next time to get an equivalent height in the finished crust. That is something that you might want to keep in mind if you decide to make a cold fermented Buddy's clone dough for use at market.

It will also interesting to see what results you get if you make an 8-square Buddy's clone pizza. As I discussed at Reply 399 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg224664/topicseen.html#msg224664, the quantities of ingredients used for the two pan sizes are not proportionate.

I forgot to mention in my report yesterday that the frozen dough ball, that was defrosted, was the hardest to press out and wanted to stretch back a lot even though it was warmed-up for a long while.  That was the dough ball I had put in my pizza prep fridge on Monday.  I have no idea if I would have floured that dough ball first if it would have been easier to stretch though.  Maybe I somehow over-mixed that one.
Can you tell me which of the five pizzas you made on Tuesday used the twice-frozen, twice-defrosted Buddy's clone dough ball?

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #686 on: December 06, 2012, 10:15:17 AM »
Norma,
One of the possible advantages of using a high-yeast, emergency type dough for a Buddy's clone pizza, such as one of your recent 9-ounce dough balls, is that it will rise much more than one with a lot less yeast. For example, if you made a dough ball of equivalent weight but with a lot less yeast and cold fermented it for a few days, you might not get the same degree of rise (for a comparable temper time), making it necessary to use more dough the next time to get an equivalent height in the finished crust. That is something that you might want to keep in mind if you decide to make a cold fermented Buddy's clone dough for use at market.

It will also interesting to see what results you get if you make an 8-square Buddy's clone pizza. As I discussed at Reply 399 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg224664/topicseen.html#msg224664, the quantities of ingredients used for the two pan sizes are not proportionate.
Can you tell me which of the five pizzas you made on Tuesday used the twice-frozen, twice-defrosted Buddy's clone dough ball?

Peter

Peter,

I didnít think about the advantages of using a high-yeast emergency type dough for a Buddyís pizza in relation to how the crust would rise with more yeast.  I also didnít think about how a dough ball of equivalent weight with a lot less yeast and cold fermented maybe might not rise to the same degree.  I had just thought that letting the dough temper more in the steel pans would take care of that.  For 2 of the pizzas I had made on Tuesday the dough balls were cold fermented for one day.  I might have to try another experiment with a 9 ounce dough ball that is fermented for 3 days to see what might happen for when market has their different days for market and I would have to make the dough on Friday. 

I see from your link that the quantities of ingredients used for the two pan sizes are not proportionate.  Do you think I should just double my amount of ingredients for a 4-square pan and see what happens in final bake weights for a cheese and pepperoni pizza?

The pizza made with the twice-frozen, twice-defrosted Buddyís clone dough was the apple wood smoked bacon one at Reply 664 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg226803.html#msg226803  That dough ball did ferment very nicely and I had it sitting out at room temperature for several hours, but it sure was a bugger in trying to press it out.  I didnít flour that dough ball at all and I had to laugh at every time Steve told me to flour those dough balls.  As I posted before I had wanted to study more about how differently the dough balls pressed out in a steel pan without first flouring them a little.  I even twisted Steveís ears, when he kept mentioning that.  >:D :-D  Steve kept telling me I was doing more work than I needed to and I kept telling him I know, but wanted to see for myself if the dough would bake any differently.  I did have a picture of that dough ball in the steel pan, but deleted it because I thought why even post that picture.  I had thought after reballing that dough ball with the extra piece of dough when left to defrost after a day everything would have been okay, but that sure was a stubborn dough ball.  At least the final pizza turned out okay.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #687 on: December 06, 2012, 10:50:48 AM »
Norma,

I didnít think about the advantages of using a high-yeast emergency type dough for a Buddyís pizza in relation to how the crust would rise with more yeast.  I also didnít think about how a dough ball of equivalent weight with a lot less yeast and cold fermented maybe might not rise to the same degree.  I had just thought that letting the dough temper more in the steel pans would take care of that.  For 2 of the pizzas I had made on Tuesday the dough balls were cold fermented for one day.  I might have to try another experiment with a 9 ounce dough ball that is fermented for 3 days to see what might happen for when market has their different days for market and I would have to make the dough on Friday.
You are correct that you can use a longer temper time with the smaller dough ball if you have the luxury of time. Or you might use your Hatco unit or some other warm spot. 

I see from your link that the quantities of ingredients used for the two pan sizes are not proportionate.  Do you think I should just double my amount of ingredients for a 4-square pan and see what happens in final bake weights for a cheese and pepperoni pizza?
We were told by Buddy's that they use about one pound of cheese for their 8-square pizzas. Elsewhere, I read that Buddy's uses 15 ounces of cheese for their 8-square pizzas. You might use 15 ounces and add another ounce if you think it is needed. If you use pepperoni, I think I would double what you used before (2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ounces). For the sauce, I think I would just spoon it on like you have been doing with the 4-square pizzas until you think you have enough sauce on the pizza, but with three racing stripes rather than two. You might weigh the amount of sauce for future reference.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #688 on: December 06, 2012, 12:04:01 PM »
Norma,
You are correct that you can use a longer temper time with the smaller dough ball if you have the luxury of time. Or you might use your Hatco unit or some other warm spot. 
We were told by Buddy's that they use about one pound of cheese for their 8-square pizzas. Elsewhere, I read that Buddy's uses 15 ounces of cheese for their 8-square pizzas. You might use 15 ounces and add another ounce if you think it is needed. If you use pepperoni, I think I would double what you used before (2 x 1.25 = 2.5 ounces). For the sauce, I think I would just spoon it on like you have been doing with the 4-square pizzas until you think you have enough sauce on the pizza, but with three racing stripes rather than two. You might weigh the amount of sauce for future reference.

Peter

Peter,

I worry about the luxury of time when I am attempting to offer Detroit style pizzas at market.  To get it all together is something that will take some more on my part of finding out what works and what doesnít work in tempering the doughs in the pans.  I know I could use my Hatco unit, but maybe want to put it up on my counter to be able to display the Detroit style pizza that might have more than one topping.  The Hatco unit does have a temperature control, humidity control, lighting and shelves that would fit the Detroit style pizzas no matter which sizes I offer.

Thanks for your thoughts on how much cheese to try on a 8-square pizza and your other comments of what to try. 

I called Stanislaus last week and told the lady I spoke to that I would like to try Full-Red and 7/11 Ground Tomatoes for the Detroit style pizza I am trying to offer for market.  Stanislaus is very friendly and I received the two products today.

Do you have any idea of which Stanislaus product I should try first in an attempt to make a tomato basil sauce like Buddyís had sent me the extra sauce?

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #689 on: December 06, 2012, 12:23:38 PM »
Well what do you know, I was shopping at Whole Foods(whole paycheck as Tom says) yesterday and found a new item...Carmelina tomatos. Only have the small 14oz cans but I think that just might turn out to be a convient size. I bought both types they are carrying, traditional peeled plums and something I have seen for the first time...Italian cherry tomatoes.Both are packed in puree and after doing the Bill's sauce with each seperatly I think the cherry one tastes pretty darn good. These aren't peeled though so there's a bit more work involved with the cherries. I'm going to try one of these Detroit styles tonight before making a fine opinion on which tomato product I prefer.
Thought I would try the formula posted on the first page here. The one Peter converted from Norma's "Bill" recipe. And I'm going to try out my new found fresh yeast.
Should I try a couple hour preferment with this? Also, I wanted to ask whether any oil has now been brought into this dough during all of the developements this thread has experienced...thanks!  :chef:
Bob

ps. I thought I might try a non smoked Gouda on the edge and then a Muenster/mozz blend in the center...warmed sauce on post bake is the preferred method? Should I place the VT pepperoni under or on top?
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #690 on: December 06, 2012, 01:38:41 PM »
I made 2, 8 square pies last night, according to Norma's formula. One with Occident flour and an all day room temp ferment and one with Norma's Organic Sprouted wheat flour. Sorry, I got really lazy with the camera and only took the one picture.

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #691 on: December 06, 2012, 01:55:56 PM »
Well what do you know, I was shopping at Whole Foods(whole paycheck as Tom says) yesterday and found a new item...Carmelina tomatos. Only have the small 14oz cans but I think that just might turn out to be a convient size. I bought both types they are carrying, traditional peeled plums and something I have seen for the first time...Italian cherry tomatoes.Both are packed in puree and after doing the Bill's sauce with each seperatly I think the cherry one tastes pretty darn good. These aren't peeled though so there's a bit more work involved with the cherries. I'm going to try one of these Detroit styles tonight before making a fine opinion on which tomato product I prefer.
Thought I would try the formula posted on the first page here. The one Peter converted from Norma's "Bill" recipe. And I'm going to try out my new found fresh yeast.
Should I try a couple hour preferment with this? Also, I wanted to ask whether any oil has now been brought into this dough during all of the developements this thread has experienced...thanks!  :chef:
Bob

ps. I thought I might try a non smoked Gouda on the edge and then a Muenster/mozz blend in the center...warmed sauce on post bake is the preferred method? Should I place the VT pepperoni under or on top?

Bob,

The Carmelina tomatoes that Bob from Trenton sent me were San Marzano Italian Peeled Tomatoes and in 14.28 oz. cans.  It is great if you like Billís sauce with the cherry Carmelina tomatoes.  I never saw them before and havenít even seen any Carmelina tomatoes in my area and only have one can left. 

If you want to try the formulation that Peter converted for me for the Normaís ďBill recipeĒ that is fine, but I am using a higher TF now.  The TF I am now using is 0.1218 and you can scale down a little it if you want. 

It all depends on how much fresh yeast you use when your dough might be ready.  There really isnít a preferment in this dough, but a temper time/or ferment time in the steel pan. 

No oil has been added to the dough anywhere in this thread.  The only oil is to grease the steel pans.

On this thread I did try warmed sauce after the bake, but most of my pies on this thread the sauce is put on before the bake.  You can try either way.

Your non-smoked Gouda on the edge with a Muenster/mozzarella blend sound very good.  Steve and I were just talking on Tuesday about what cheeses we could try and one was Gouda.

Good luck with your Detroit style pizza!

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #692 on: December 06, 2012, 01:58:33 PM »
I made 2, 8 square pies last night, according to Norma's formula. One with Occident flour and an all day room temp ferment and one with Norma's Organic Sprouted wheat flour. Sorry, I got really lazy with the camera and only took the one picture.

Steve,

Your 8-square pies look great!  ;D  How did you like the one with the Organic Sprouted wheat flour?  Did the all day room temperature ferment change the crust flavor any? 

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #693 on: December 06, 2012, 02:15:41 PM »
Norma, thanks for answering each of my questions...you're very nice.  ;)
This will be my first use of VT pepperoni, I always see how nice it crisps/cups up when cooked on the top. Is this (on top) what you recommend....thanks peach.  ;D
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #694 on: December 06, 2012, 02:24:44 PM »

This will be my first use of VT pepperoni, I always see how nice it crisps/cups up when cooked on the top. Is this (on top) what you recommend....thanks peach.  ;D


Bob,

Yes, I would recommend putting the Vermont Smoked pepperoni on the top.  I think you will love how it crisps, cups and tastes.  Vermont Smoked pepperoni is very good.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #695 on: December 06, 2012, 02:59:53 PM »
I called Stanislaus last week and told the lady I spoke to that I would like to try Full-Red and 7/11 Ground Tomatoes for the Detroit style pizza I am trying to offer for market.  Stanislaus is very friendly and I received the two products today.

Do you have any idea of which Stanislaus product I should try first in an attempt to make a tomato basil sauce like Buddyís had sent me the extra sauce?
Norma,

I think I would go with the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil, on the assumption that Buddy's does not add the fresh basil to make their Tomato Basil Sauce. Interestingly, while the description of the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#frPizza says that that product is available with hand-packed fresh basil "leaves" (in the plural), the Nutrition Facts at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf say fresh basil "leaf" (in the singular). Maybe you can tell us if only one basil leaf is in the can. You might also take note of the amount of tomato peel in the Full Red Pizza Sauce and also its consistency in relation to the sample that Buddy's sent you. You might recall that former Buddy's employee lufty said that water was added to the tomato product at Buddy's (he said it was "paste"). However, he may have been referring to Buddy's Original sauce.

As you know, the 7/11 ground tomatoes have no fresh basil added. They do have bits of peel, however. For that product, I suppose you could add your own basil.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #696 on: December 06, 2012, 03:56:43 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil, on the assumption that Buddy's does not add the fresh basil to make their Tomato Basil Sauce. Interestingly, while the description of the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#frPizza says that that product is available with hand-packed fresh basil "leaves" (in the plural), the Nutrition Facts at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf say fresh basil "leaf" (in the singular). Maybe you can tell us if only one basil leaf is in the can. You might also take note of the amount of tomato peel in the Full Red Pizza Sauce and also its consistency in relation to the sample that Buddy's sent you. You might recall that former Buddy's employee lufty said that water was added to the tomato product at Buddy's (he said it was "paste"). However, he may have been referring to Buddy's Original sauce.

As you know, the 7/11 ground tomatoes have no fresh basil added. They do have bits of peel, however. For that product, I suppose you could add your own basil.

Peter

Hi Peter and Norma,

Just an FYI, but I hear basil "leaf" used as plural sometimes. Usually it has been people from the East coast and Italian immigrants IIRC.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #697 on: December 06, 2012, 04:13:56 PM »
I believe "leaves" is generally used when refereing to the "dried" product.
i.e...add 1 tsp. dried basil leaves.

 Di Fara tops his pie with a large amount of fresh scissor cut basil leaf.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 04:18:44 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #698 on: December 06, 2012, 04:16:44 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil, on the assumption that Buddy's does not add the fresh basil to make their Tomato Basil Sauce. Interestingly, while the description of the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#frPizza says that that product is available with hand-packed fresh basil "leaves" (in the plural), the Nutrition Facts at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf say fresh basil "leaf" (in the singular). Maybe you can tell us if only one basil leaf is in the can. You might also take note of the amount of tomato peel in the Full Red Pizza Sauce and also its consistency in relation to the sample that Buddy's sent you. You might recall that former Buddy's employee lufty said that water was added to the tomato product at Buddy's (he said it was "paste"). However, he may have been referring to Buddy's Original sauce.

As you know, the 7/11 ground tomatoes have no fresh basil added. They do have bits of peel, however. For that product, I suppose you could add your own basil.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts and comments about why I should try the Full Red Pizza Sauce with basil first with the links.  It is interesting that while the description of the Full Red Pizza Sauce with Basil says that that product is available with hand-packed fresh basil leaves in plural, and then the Nutrition Facts say fresh basil in singular.  I sure should be able to tell how many basil leaves are in the can.  You sure do study everything and leave no stone unturned.  I also will take note of the amount of tomato peel in the Full Red Pizza Sauce and also its consistency in relation to the sample that Buddyís sent me.  I just have to defrost the sample of the extra sauce.   I do recall that Buddyís employee lufty had said that water was added to the tomato product at Buddyís.  I think he might have been referring to the Buddyís Original sauce. 

I will wait to test out the 7/11 ground tomato product until later.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #699 on: December 06, 2012, 04:18:35 PM »
Hi Peter and Norma,

Just an FYI, but I hear basil "leaf" used as plural sometimes. Usually it has been people from the East coast and Italian immigrants IIRC.

I believe "leaves" is generally used when refereing to the "dried" product.
i.e...add 1 tsp. dried basil leaves.

Thank you Jeff and Bob for your thoughts!  ;)  I learn something new everyday here on the forum. 

Norma
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