Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 148746 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #720 on: December 10, 2012, 08:28:52 PM »

I opened the can of Stanislaus Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil tonight and divided it into 4 containers.  I will take one container to market tomorrow to try on some of the Buddy’s clone pizzas and freeze the other 3 containers..  The other small container is the container that had the extra Buddy’s sauce in it.  Buddy’s extra sauce will defrost overnight.  I found one big basil leaf and 2 very small basil leaves in the can of Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil.  It can be seen how big the big leaf was and the one tiny leaf was like the other one I found in the can.  The Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil is very sweet tasting naturally.  I tasted a big spoon of it.  Steve and I will try to doctor up the Full-Red Pizza Sauce to taste like the Buddy’s extra sauce.  Hopefully we will be successful.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #721 on: December 10, 2012, 10:27:09 PM »
I also talked to Joe Widmer about the samples of brick cheese he was going to send me this morning.  Joe asked me if it was okay if he sent them after the holidays because this is their busiest part of the year.  I told Joe it was fine with me if the samples were sent after the holidays.  Joe told me to remind him about the samples after the holidays.

Norma,

It will be interesting to see how the Widmer brick cheese works out on a Buddy's clone pizza once you are able to get a sample of that cheese. However, I seriously doubt that Buddy's is using a product like the Widmer brick cheese. I have been researching brick cheese and Wisconsin producers of that cheese and I believe that Buddy's is using a major producer of brick cheese, not any of the many small and mom-and-pop brick cheese producers that operate out of Wisconsin.

Originally, Buddy's used Kraft as its supplier of brick cheese. Then, it went with Foremost Farms. Foremost Farms is a giant operator and is organized as a cooperative that embraces many producers of dairy products. You can see this at http://www.foremostfarms.com/About-Us/Vision-and-Values/History.php. Also, as you can see from the map at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Processing.php, all of the Foremost Farms processing plants are located in Wisconsin. Foremost not only serves the foodservice market sector directly but it also deals with intermediaries that cut, grind/shred and package cheeses for the retail market. An example of such an intermediary is the Deli Source/Wilmont Farms company that was mentioned earlier in this thread as the supplier (along with Widmer) of brick cheese to Central Market stores in Texas. For the quantity of brick cheese that Buddy's must go through, there would be no reason to buy from someone like Wilmont. They would deal with Foremost or a foodservice company that handles the Foremost brick cheese.

As was mentioned previously in the Buddy's thread at Reply 322 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136883.html#msg136883, Buddy's showed the Foremost Farms logo in the menu that it was using as of 2009 at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/WebsiteMenu7.2.10.pdf, specifically, at page 4 in the square pizza section of the menu. For some reason, Buddy's omitted reference to Foremost in later menus. However, when you wrote to Buddy's to inquire about the fat in their brick cheese, you were told that there was 9 grams of fat for a 28-gram quantity (Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220645/topicseen.html#msg220645). That is the amount of fat shown by Foremost for its brick cheese at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.

If Buddy's is no longer using the Foremost brick cheese, I wondered what other large supplier it might be using. I thought that Land O Lakes, also a large cooperative, might offer a brick cheese but I could not find that product listed at the Land O Lakes foodservice website at http://landolakesfoodservice.com/products/default.aspx?c=86.. However, at one time, Land O Lakes apparently did offer a brick cheese, as noted, for example, at http://cf.foodfacts.com/NutritionFacts/Mixed-Combination-Cheese/Land-O-Lakes-White-Brick-Cheese-5-lb/70890.

If Kraft is still in the business of selling brick cheese, I could not find that cheese listed at its foodservice website at http://www.kraftfoodservice.com/products/productinfosearchresults.aspx?catalogtype=3&categoryid=101&searchtext=process%20cheese&pageno=2.

Until better information comes our way, I am assuming that Buddy's is still using the Foremost Farms brick cheese.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 10:39:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #722 on: December 11, 2012, 06:19:45 AM »
Norma,

It will be interesting to see how the Widmer brick cheese works out on a Buddy's clone pizza once you are able to get a sample of that cheese. However, I seriously doubt that Buddy's is using a product like the Widmer brick cheese. I have been researching brick cheese and Wisconsin producers of that cheese and I believe that Buddy's is using a major producer of brick cheese, not any of the many small and mom-and-pop brick cheese producers that operate out of Wisconsin.

Originally, Buddy's used Kraft as its supplier of brick cheese. Then, it went with Foremost Farms. Foremost Farms is a giant operator and is organized as a cooperative that embraces many producers of dairy products. You can see this at http://www.foremostfarms.com/About-Us/Vision-and-Values/History.php. Also, as you can see from the map at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Processing.php, all of the Foremost Farms processing plants are located in Wisconsin. Foremost not only serves the foodservice market sector directly but it also deals with intermediaries that cut, grind/shred and package cheeses for the retail market. An example of such an intermediary is the Deli Source/Wilmont Farms company that was mentioned earlier in this thread as the supplier (along with Widmer) of brick cheese to Central Market stores in Texas. For the quantity of brick cheese that Buddy's must go through, there would be no reason to buy from someone like Wilmont. They would deal with Foremost or a foodservice company that handles the Foremost brick cheese.

As was mentioned previously in the Buddy's thread at Reply 322 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136883.html#msg136883, Buddy's showed the Foremost Farms logo in the menu that it was using as of 2009 at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/WebsiteMenu7.2.10.pdf, specifically, at page 4 in the square pizza section of the menu. For some reason, Buddy's omitted reference to Foremost in later menus. However, when you wrote to Buddy's to inquire about the fat in their brick cheese, you were told that there was 9 grams of fat for a 28-gram quantity (Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220645/topicseen.html#msg220645). That is the amount of fat shown by Foremost for its brick cheese at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.

If Buddy's is no longer using the Foremost brick cheese, I wondered what other large supplier it might be using. I thought that Land O Lakes, also a large cooperative, might offer a brick cheese but I could not find that product listed at the Land O Lakes foodservice website at http://landolakesfoodservice.com/products/default.aspx?c=86.. However, at one time, Land O Lakes apparently did offer a brick cheese, as noted, for example, at http://cf.foodfacts.com/NutritionFacts/Mixed-Combination-Cheese/Land-O-Lakes-White-Brick-Cheese-5-lb/70890.

If Kraft is still in the business of selling brick cheese, I could not find that cheese listed at its foodservice website at http://www.kraftfoodservice.com/products/productinfosearchresults.aspx?catalogtype=3&categoryid=101&searchtext=process%20cheese&pageno=2.

Until better information comes our way, I am assuming that Buddy's is still using the Foremost Farms brick cheese.

Peter



Peter,

Joe Widmer told me he was going to be sending me two samples of brick cheese.  I wouldn’t think the stronger brick cheese would work out, since I tasted a Buddy’s pizza and found out the brick cheese is the mild brick cheese.  That really was one reason I purchased a Buddy’s pizza to see how the cheese tasted. 

I also think that Buddy’s is using the Foremost Farms brick cheese, but there is no way I can get a sample of that for the foodservice side.  I know Foremost Farms is a giant operator that has many dairy products.  I didn’t know that Foremost Farms deals with intermediaries that package cheeses for the retail market, like Wilmont Farms company.  I don’t have time to click on the map this morning to see what all the Foremost Farms produce.  Did you see any that produce the brick cheese?  I might have to contact Foremost Farms again and see if they sell the Wilmont brick cheese in my area on the retail level to try.

I also didn’t know Kraft used to be Buddy’s supplier of brick cheese.  If you want me to, I can try to contact Kraft to see if they still produce brick cheese. 

I also don’t have time this morning to find the link, but Great Lakes does produce the Eddie’s brick cheese I purchased from Mandi Cheese.  I posted this same pdf. for the Great Lakes brick cheese somewhere on this thread.  The nearest location I can get the Great Lakes brick cheese is in Scranton, Pa.  I wouldn’t think Buddy’s is using Great Lakes though.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #723 on: December 11, 2012, 07:05:34 AM »
The Buddy’s clone dough without salt was finished mixing at about 6:45AM.  I used speed 4 on my Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed for about 3 minutes with the flat beater only.  I was somewhat surprised that the dough felt less sticky then when using salt.  The final dough temperature was 77.8 degrees F.  The poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball to watch how it ferments.  I dropped a few extra poppy seeds on the dough ball, but did pick them off after the picture was taken.  The dough ball was oiled with Canola oil.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #724 on: December 11, 2012, 07:59:59 AM »
Norma,

I didn’t know that Foremost Farms deals with intermediaries that package cheeses for the retail market, like Wilmont Farms company.  I don’t have time to click on the map this morning to see what all the Foremost Farms produce.  Did you see any that produce the brick cheese?  I might have to contact Foremost Farms again and see if they sell the Wilmont brick cheese in my area on the retail level to try.

I was curious where Foremost Farms makes its brick cheese and I did check out all of the cheese making plants shown on the Foremost Farms map but did not see any whose fact sheets indicate that they make the brick cheese. Apparently brick cheese is not a big mover. As for Deli Source/Wilmont, I do not believe that Foremost Farms sells their product. Deli Source/Wilmont appears to be one of many companies that buy cheeses from various suppliers and process them (cut, grind/shred, wrap, etc.) for the retail market. Deli Source/Wilmont may not even buy their cheeses from Foremost Farms.

I also didn’t know Kraft used to be Buddy’s supplier of brick cheese.  If you want me to, I can try to contact Kraft to see if they still produce brick cheese.

Until Buddy's reworked their website, and before they went to Foremost Farms, they said that their brick cheese was made for them in Wisconsin by Kraft. You can follow the Buddy's cheese trail at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. That is the post that I use, and periodically edit, to serve as my "master" post on the Buddy's pizza. It's up to you if you want to contact Kraft to see if they are still in the business of selling brick cheese. There cant be many companies, pizzerias or otherwise, that have a need for large quantities of brick cheese to justify committing resources to that product. If you contact them and find that they still sell brick cheese, you might try to get a sample to try.

I also don’t have time this morning to find the link, but Great Lakes does produce the Eddie’s brick cheese I purchased from Mandi Cheese.  I posted this same pdf. for the Great Lakes brick cheese somewhere on this thread.  The nearest location I can get the Great Lakes brick cheese is in Scranton, Pa.  I wouldn’t think Buddy’s is using Great Lakes though.

I do not believe that Buddy's is using the Great Lakes Eddie's brick cheese. You will recall from what you posted at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220645/topicseen.html#msg220645 that the woman at Buddy's who responded to one of your emails made reference to the nutritional label for their brick cheese showing 9 grams of fat for a 28-ounce sample. The Eddie's brick cheese specs that you reposted this morning show 8 grams of fat.

Another point to keep in mind about the type of brick cheese that Buddy's is using is that the "standard of identity" for brick cheese in the federal regulations does not take into account that brick cheese should be surface ripened with B. linens (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_cheese). I believe that that is the method that Widmer is using for at least some of its brick cheeses. For the larger volumes of brick cheese produced by companies like Foremost Farms, I would imagine that they use a different method, whatever that is. So, their brick cheese is likely to have a different flavor profile.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 08:03:44 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #725 on: December 11, 2012, 08:17:03 AM »
I opened the can of Stanislaus Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil tonight and divided it into 4 containers.  I will take one container to market tomorrow to try on some of the Buddy’s clone pizzas and freeze the other 3 containers..  The other small container is the container that had the extra Buddy’s sauce in it.  Buddy’s extra sauce will defrost overnight.  I found one big basil leaf and 2 very small basil leaves in the can of Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil.  It can be seen how big the big leaf was and the one tiny leaf was like the other one I found in the can.  The Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil is very sweet tasting naturally.  I tasted a big spoon of it.  Steve and I will try to doctor up the Full-Red Pizza Sauce to taste like the Buddy’s extra sauce.  Hopefully we will be successful.
Norma,

From what you reported above, it does sound like the large can of the Stanislaus Full Red Pizza Sauce with Basil effectively contains only one fresh basil leaf, with maybe a few unintended straggler basil shreds. Unless you can find evidence of fresh basil shreds in the sample of the Original sauce that you received from Buddy's recently, it is likely that Buddy's is using another Stanislaus tomato product, and using a seasoning that may include dry basil. That other Stanislaus product would have to contain bits of skin such as you noted in the sauce sample you received from Buddy's.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #726 on: December 11, 2012, 01:32:57 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, and to satisfy my curiosity, I called Stanislaus Products this morning and spoke to a customer service rep about their products. What I was looking for is a list of their tomato products that contain some tomato skin that is discernible to the naked eye. Without hesitation, the rep blurted out the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes. When I mentioned that the Full Red Pizza Sauce is described at their website as having some skins (and seeds), he said that was true but you wouldn't be able to see them in the product.

I also asked the rep about adding water to their products, as it appears that Buddy's does (and also Jet's). I know that Stanislaus discourages diluting their products with water (because it dilutes the tomato flavor) and that Stanislaus would rather that their products be diluted with another of their tomato products, but the reality is that some pizza operators dilute the Stanislaus products with water. This led to a discussion of Brix (Bx) numbers. The Brix number is a measure of the total solids in the tomato product. For the 7/11, the Bx is 10-11%; for the Full Red Pizza Sauce, it is 15-16%; for the Saporito Pizza Sauce (aka Super Heavy Concentrated Crushed), the Bx is 20-21%. I also learned that Stanislaus sells a product called Full Red Tomato Paste. That product is not in the "made from scratch" section of the Stanislaus website but I found it in the Nutrition Facts section at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Tomato-Paste.pdf. I was told that that product is not as thick as competitive offerings. It has a Bx of 20-26%. Since former Buddy's employee lufty indicated that the Buddy's sauce was made from tomato paste, it is possible that Buddy's is using the Full Red Tomato Paste. However, when I was asked if one could see the skins in the product if it were to be diluted with water, I was told no, that the product is smooth.

Seeing how you found so little fresh basil in the can of Full Red Pizza Sauce that you opened yesterday, I asked about that. I was told that they put one or two large basil leaves in each can and, as little as that may seem, it really adds flavor to the tomatoes. As it turns out, Stanislaus has a very large room filled with fresh basil plants and there are workers whose only job is to pick fresh basil leaves off of the plants and add them to the tomatoes. They do this all day long. I suppose that they go home smelling like basil.

To see if I could get any information about the Stanislaus products that Buddy's uses, I specifically asked about that, figuring nothing ventured nothing gained. I was told that that information is proprietary.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #727 on: December 11, 2012, 03:53:30 PM »
How long ago was lufty working at Buddy's? Maybe they are mixing the 7/11 product with the paste, just a guess...
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #728 on: December 11, 2012, 06:31:49 PM »
How long ago was lufty working at Buddy's? Maybe they are mixing the 7/11 product with the paste, just a guess...

Bob,

That is a fair question. No business is static, and one can expect many changes over time in just about any business. And that includes Buddy's Pizza. In that vein, I have read and listened to several reports where key employees of Buddy's discussed changes they were making because of pricing and other economic issues. Detroit is suffering mightily, with reports having surfaced in recent days that Detroit is on the verge of filing for bankruptcy.

I first stumbled across lufty in April of last year in some posts that he had entered at the reddit website about his former job at Buddy's. I found the reddit website through a Google search. At the time, lufty said that he had left Buddy's three years prior. So, measured from today, it was a bit over 4 1/2 years ago that lufty worked at Buddy's.

Shortly after I studied what lufty reported at reddit, I had exchanges with Buddy's where I tried to learn whether Buddy's had made significant changes to the ingredients used to make their pizzas. The cheese and sauce were two such ingredients. Not long ago, in this thread, at Reply 131 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221124/topicseen.html#msg221124, I reported on the substance of those exchanges. As can be seen from that reply, Buddy's said, among other things, that they had not changed any of their core ingredients for sauces. That was the best I was able to get out of Buddy's. However, I am sure that Norma would be satisfied if she were able to replicate a Buddy's pizza of a few years ago. Such a pizza would most likely be better than the ones that Buddy's is now turning out, at least based on reports I have read from long-time Buddy's fans. However, I could be wrong and Buddy's may still using the same basic products to make today's pizza as it did a few years ago.

This is what lufty specifically said about the Buddy's sauce: "The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time." I don't know whether lufty actually meant a tomato paste or whether he might have meant a crushed tomato or heavy puree or something similar. But, whatever the tomato product was, water was added to it. Hopefully, Norma will report back on the results of today's cloned Buddy's pizzas using the Full Red Pizza Sauce with Basil especially since she has a sample of the Buddy's Original pizza sauce to use for comparison purposes.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #729 on: December 11, 2012, 08:51:47 PM »
Norma,
I was curious where Foremost Farms makes its brick cheese and I did check out all of the cheese making plants shown on the Foremost Farms map but did not see any whose fact sheets indicate that they make the brick cheese. Apparently brick cheese is not a big mover. As for Deli Source/Wilmont, I do not believe that Foremost Farms sells their product. Deli Source/Wilmont appears to be one of many companies that buy cheeses from various suppliers and process them (cut, grind/shred, wrap, etc.) for the retail market. Deli Source/Wilmont may not even buy their cheeses from Foremost Farms.
Until Buddy's reworked their website, and before they went to Foremost Farms, they said that their brick cheese was made for them in Wisconsin by Kraft. You can follow the Buddy's cheese trail at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. That is the post that I use, and periodically edit, to serve as my "master" post on the Buddy's pizza. It's up to you if you want to contact Kraft to see if they are still in the business of selling brick cheese. There cant be many companies, pizzerias or otherwise, that have a need for large quantities of brick cheese to justify committing resources to that product. If you contact them and find that they still sell brick cheese, you might try to get a sample to try.
I do not believe that Buddy's is using the Great Lakes Eddie's brick cheese. You will recall from what you posted at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220645/topicseen.html#msg220645 that the woman at Buddy's who responded to one of your emails made reference to the nutritional label for their brick cheese showing 9 grams of fat for a 28-ounce sample. The Eddie's brick cheese specs that you reposted this morning show 8 grams of fat.

Another point to keep in mind about the type of brick cheese that Buddy's is using is that the "standard of identity" for brick cheese in the federal regulations does not take into account that brick cheese should be surface ripened with B. linens (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_cheese). I believe that that is the method that Widmer is using for at least some of its brick cheeses. For the larger volumes of brick cheese produced by companies like Foremost Farms, I would imagine that they use a different method, whatever that is. So, their brick cheese is likely to have a different flavor profile.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for being curious and checking the Foremost Farms map to see if any of the fact sheets indicated where the brick cheese is made.   Thanks also for telling me that Deli Source/Wilmont my not even buy their cheeses from Foremost Farms.

I read your link and did follow the cheese trail.  I can contact Kraft to see if they still are in the business of selling brick cheese.

Joe Widmer told me that their one kind of brick cheese is mild and the other one is a stronger tasting brick cheese, but I don’t believe Buddy’s is using their brick cheese. 

I didn’t look about Eddie’s brick cheese to see the fat content in comparison to the 9 grams of fat for a 28-ounce sample at Buddy‘s.  I just knew that the Eddie’s brick cheese did taste like the brick cheese on the Buddy’s pizza I purchased. 

I talked to Tom Kiefer again this morning and he said by this afternoon that I should be getting a sample of brick cheese, but until tonight there wasn’t any sample, so I went to talk to Tom Kiefer again.  He told me he was sorry but no one brought him the sample today.  He still doesn’t know the brand of brick cheese I will be getting a sample of, but I should have the sample of brick cheese until next week, with the brand name on the brick cheese. 

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #730 on: December 11, 2012, 08:53:33 PM »
Well, as I said, it was just a guess. Also, as we know 7/11 has citric acid added so if that is not in any of the info you guys have for Buddy's then it can definetly not be considered. Sounds like lufty gave you solid information....he would have stated if there was a second tomato product added that had evidence of "bits" in it. But as you say Peter, things are always under consideration for change...
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #731 on: December 11, 2012, 09:09:11 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, and to satisfy my curiosity, I called Stanislaus Products this morning and spoke to a customer service rep about their products. What I was looking for is a list of their tomato products that contain some tomato skin that is discernible to the naked eye. Without hesitation, the rep blurted out the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes. When I mentioned that the Full Red Pizza Sauce is described at their website as having some skins (and seeds), he said that was true but you wouldn't be able to see them in the product.

I also asked the rep about adding water to their products, as it appears that Buddy's does (and also Jet's). I know that Stanislaus discourages diluting their products with water (because it dilutes the tomato flavor) and that Stanislaus would rather that their products be diluted with another of their tomato products, but the reality is that some pizza operators dilute the Stanislaus products with water. This led to a discussion of Brix (Bx) numbers. The Brix number is a measure of the total solids in the tomato product. For the 7/11, the Bx is 10-11%; for the Full Red Pizza Sauce, it is 15-16%; for the Saporito Pizza Sauce (aka Super Heavy Concentrated Crushed), the Bx is 20-21%. I also learned that Stanislaus sells a product called Full Red Tomato Paste. That product is not in the "made from scratch" section of the Stanislaus website but I found it in the Nutrition Facts section at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Tomato-Paste.pdf. I was told that that product is not as thick as competitive offerings. It has a Bx of 20-26%. Since former Buddy's employee lufty indicated that the Buddy's sauce was made from tomato paste, it is possible that Buddy's is using the Full Red Tomato Paste. However, when I was asked if one could see the skins in the product if it were to be diluted with water, I was told no, that the product is smooth.

Seeing how you found so little fresh basil in the can of Full Red Pizza Sauce that you opened yesterday, I asked about that. I was told that they put one or two large basil leaves in each can and, as little as that may seem, it really adds flavor to the tomatoes. As it turns out, Stanislaus has a very large room filled with fresh basil plants and there are workers whose only job is to pick fresh basil leaves off of the plants and add them to the tomatoes. They do this all day long. I suppose that they go home smelling like basil.

To see if I could get any information about the Stanislaus products that Buddy's uses, I specifically asked about that, figuring nothing ventured nothing gained. I was told that that information is proprietary.

Peter


Peter,

So you think the Stanislaus 7/11 is what Buddy’s might be using now?  Steve and I didn’t think the Full Red Pizza Sauce was as dark as the extra Buddy’s sauce today and we really could not see any tomato skins in the Full Red today.  Steve did doctor up the Full Red though and it almost tasted like Buddy’s extra sauce, expect it was a little to salty from the Kosher salt Steve added. 

That is quite interesting that Stanislaus products have Brix numbers.  I didn’t know that before and didn’t know the Brix number is a measure of the total solids in the tomato products. 

It is also interesting that Stanislaus has a very large room filled with fresh basil plant and the workers pick fresh basil leaves off the plants and add them to the tomatoes.  I would think that would be a boring job, but guess someone has to do it.

I know the Saporito Extra Heavy sauce has more than a few basil leave in that product.   

Good for you in asking what Stanislaus product that Buddy’s uses.  You are right, noting ventured is nothing gained even if you found out that information is proprietary.

Below is a picture of the Full Red Sauce with a lot of added water before Steve doctored it up.  The Full Red Sauce with water is on the left and the Buddy’s extra sauce is on the right.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #732 on: December 11, 2012, 09:16:26 PM »

Detroit is suffering mightily, with reports having surfaced in recent days that Detroit is on the verge of filing for bankruptcy.

Peter

Peter,

It sure is true what you are saying about Detroit suffering mightily.  Two men came up to my stand to purchase a slice of the Detroit style pizza today and both men have been in Detroit recently.  The two men came at different times and didn’t know each other.  Both men told Steve and me that we wouldn’t want to go to Detroit to try out Buddy’s pizza.  Neither of them were ever at Buddy’s, but they both told us all what is going on in Detroit and it sure wasn’t a pretty story.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #733 on: December 11, 2012, 09:22:53 PM »
I don’t have time to do a full report tonight, but just wanted to say that the Buddy’s clone dough made without salt made a very good crust.  I couldn’t tell no salt was in the crust and Steve said if he really tasted the crust he could only taste a little that no salt was added.  We both think the bottom crust frying in the steel pan, the toppings and the caramelized edges just somehow come together and no salt is needed in the crust. I sure was surprised at those results.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #734 on: December 11, 2012, 09:59:41 PM »
So you think the Stanislaus 7/11 is what Buddy’s might be using now?  Steve and I didn’t think the Full Red Pizza Sauce was as dark as the extra Buddy’s sauce today and we really could not see any tomato skins in the Full Red today.  Steve did doctor up the Full Red though and it almost tasted like Buddy’s extra sauce, expect it was a little to salty from the Kosher salt Steve added. 


Norma,

If what I was told by Stanislaus today is correct, then that pretty much leaves the 7/11 ground tomatoes (unpeeled) as the logical candidate for the Buddy's Original Sauce.

I didn't think to ask if the Full Red Tomato Paste was around when the Buddy's thread started but I recalled that Steve, the owner of the forum, had posted a cross reference chart of the tomato products sold by Escalon and Stanislaus. That chart is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.msg5905/topicseen.html#msg5905. As you will note, that chart was created toward the end of 2004 and the Full Red Tomato Paste is shown on the chart. So it has been around for several years. You will also note that the 7/11s are shown as being the counterpart to the Escalon 6-in-1 Ground Tomatoes with Puree. The tomatoes in that case are unpeeled, so there will be skins in the final product.

If the 7/11s aren't the right product for the Buddy's Original Sauce, then that might be the time to test out the Full Red Tomato Paste, on the chance that lufty really meant tomato paste.

I did wonder whether you would have to add water to the Stanislaus Full Red Pizza Sauce in order to get the consistency to be about the same as the sample of the Buddy's Original Sauce. That at least fits the method that lufty described.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #735 on: December 11, 2012, 10:11:52 PM »
I don’t have time to do a full report tonight, but just wanted to say that the Buddy’s clone dough made without salt made a very good crust.  I couldn’t tell no salt was in the crust and Steve said if he really tasted the crust he could only taste a little that no salt was added.  We both think the bottom crust frying in the steel pan, the toppings and the caramelized edges just somehow come together and no salt is needed in the crust. I sure was surprised at those results.
Norma,

Thanks for the interim report and for not keeping me in complete suspense until tomorrow.

While I was awaiting your verdict, I played around with several different scenarios today in an attempt to debunk my earlier work that led me to believe that Buddy's might not be using any salt in the dough. But, whatever scenario I tested, I could not get the numbers to lead me to alter my earlier conclusion. There wasn't even enough wiggle room in the numbers to support the addition of some salt to the sauce although there may be a small amount in the spice blend that Buddy's uses.

If we later discover that there is a fair amount of salt in the Buddy's dough, then that would mean that the Buddy's Nutrition data is incomplete or flawed. 

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #736 on: December 11, 2012, 10:18:03 PM »
Norma,

If what I was told by Stanislaus today is correct, then that pretty much leaves the 7/11 ground tomatoes (unpeeled) as the logical candidate for the Buddy's Original Sauce.

I didn't think to ask if the Full Red Tomato Paste was around when the Buddy's thread started but I recalled that Steve, the owner of the forum, had posted a cross reference chart of the tomato products sold by Escalon and Stanislaus. That chart is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.msg5905/topicseen.html#msg5905. As you will note, that chart was created toward the end of 2004 and the Full Red Tomato Paste is shown on the chart. So it has been around for several years. You will also note that the 7/11s are shown as being the counterpart to the Escalon 6-in-1 Ground Tomatoes with Puree. The tomatoes in that case are unpeeled, so there will be skins in the final product.

If the 7/11s aren't the right product for the Buddy's Original Sauce, then that might be the time to test out the Full Red Tomato Paste, on the chance that lufty really meant tomato paste.

I did wonder whether you would have to add water to the Stanislaus Full Red Pizza Sauce in order to get the consistency to be about the same as the sample of the Buddy's Original Sauce. That at least fits the method that lufty described.

Peter



Peter,

If you want me to I can open the 7/11 ground tomatoes tomorrow to see if there are peels in the product.  I know I used to use 7/11 ground tomatoes with Saporito Extra Heavy Sauce, but don’t recall any peels being in the sauce.  Maybe my memory is just fading though. 

Thanks for Steve’s cross reference chart of the tomato products sold by Escalon and Stanislaus. 

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #737 on: December 11, 2012, 10:32:39 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the interim report and for not keeping me in complete suspense until tomorrow.

While I was awaiting your verdict, I played around with several different scenarios today in an attempt to debunk my earlier work that led me to believe that Buddy's might not be using any salt in the dough. But, whatever scenario I tested, I could not get the numbers to lead me to alter my earlier conclusion. There wasn't even enough wiggle room in the numbers to support the addition of some salt to the sauce although there may be a small amount in the spice blend that Buddy's uses.

If we later discover that there is a fair amount of salt in the Buddy's dough, then that would mean that the Buddy's Nutrition data is incomplete or flawed. 

Peter


Peter,

Although the Buddy’s clone pizza did turn out well in the taste of the crust with no salt, I think I might have overfermented the dough in the steel pan.  I waited until about 2:10 PM to bake that pizza and it might have been too long.  The crumb wasn’t as open as most of my other Buddy’s clones today.  This is just one picture of how the dough looked right before the dressing were added.  I wanted the dough to look fermented in the steel pan something like Mary Heller’s, but I think I botched that one up.  :-D

I know you look at every way there is to understand if any salt might be added in Buddy’s dough.  It is interesting that there was no wiggle room in the numbers to support the addition of some salt to the sauce, although there maybe be a small amount in the spice blend Buddy’s uses. 

I think the only way we will ever discover if there is a fair amount of salt in Buddy’s dough, it would only be from an insider.  I can see with all your investigating that then the Buddy’s Nutrition data would be incomplete or flawed.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #738 on: December 11, 2012, 10:39:16 PM »
If you want me to I can open the 7/11 ground tomatoes tomorrow to see if there are peels in the product.

Norma,

Thanks for the offer but there is no hurry on the 7/11s. Whenever you are ready will be fine.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #739 on: December 11, 2012, 10:57:54 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the offer but there is no hurry on the 7/11s. Whenever you are ready will be fine.

Peter


Peter,

I don’t know if you recall when I did the monthly challenge for “My Favorite Red Pizza Sauce Recipe”, but if you don’t recall this is the recipe I used to use for my pizza sauce at market with 7/11 and Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  That is why I don’t remember if the 7/11 ground tomatoes have peels in them.  I might open the can tomorrow, because I sure don’t remember the peels at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9744.msg85554.html#msg85554  I am now curious is the 7/11 did have peels.

Norma 
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