Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 256958 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #725 on: December 11, 2012, 08:17:03 AM »
I opened the can of Stanislaus Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil tonight and divided it into 4 containers.  I will take one container to market tomorrow to try on some of the Buddyís clone pizzas and freeze the other 3 containers..  The other small container is the container that had the extra Buddyís sauce in it.  Buddyís extra sauce will defrost overnight.  I found one big basil leaf and 2 very small basil leaves in the can of Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil.  It can be seen how big the big leaf was and the one tiny leaf was like the other one I found in the can.  The Full-Red Pizza Sauce with Basil is very sweet tasting naturally.  I tasted a big spoon of it.  Steve and I will try to doctor up the Full-Red Pizza Sauce to taste like the Buddyís extra sauce.  Hopefully we will be successful.
Norma,

From what you reported above, it does sound like the large can of the Stanislaus Full Red Pizza Sauce with Basil effectively contains only one fresh basil leaf, with maybe a few unintended straggler basil shreds. Unless you can find evidence of fresh basil shreds in the sample of the Original sauce that you received from Buddy's recently, it is likely that Buddy's is using another Stanislaus tomato product, and using a seasoning that may include dry basil. That other Stanislaus product would have to contain bits of skin such as you noted in the sauce sample you received from Buddy's.

Peter


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #726 on: December 11, 2012, 01:32:57 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, and to satisfy my curiosity, I called Stanislaus Products this morning and spoke to a customer service rep about their products. What I was looking for is a list of their tomato products that contain some tomato skin that is discernible to the naked eye. Without hesitation, the rep blurted out the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes. When I mentioned that the Full Red Pizza Sauce is described at their website as having some skins (and seeds), he said that was true but you wouldn't be able to see them in the product.

I also asked the rep about adding water to their products, as it appears that Buddy's does (and also Jet's). I know that Stanislaus discourages diluting their products with water (because it dilutes the tomato flavor) and that Stanislaus would rather that their products be diluted with another of their tomato products, but the reality is that some pizza operators dilute the Stanislaus products with water. This led to a discussion of Brix (Bx) numbers. The Brix number is a measure of the total solids in the tomato product. For the 7/11, the Bx is 10-11%; for the Full Red Pizza Sauce, it is 15-16%; for the Saporito Pizza Sauce (aka Super Heavy Concentrated Crushed), the Bx is 20-21%. I also learned that Stanislaus sells a product called Full Red Tomato Paste. That product is not in the "made from scratch" section of the Stanislaus website but I found it in the Nutrition Facts section at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Tomato-Paste.pdf. I was told that that product is not as thick as competitive offerings. It has a Bx of 20-26%. Since former Buddy's employee lufty indicated that the Buddy's sauce was made from tomato paste, it is possible that Buddy's is using the Full Red Tomato Paste. However, when I was asked if one could see the skins in the product if it were to be diluted with water, I was told no, that the product is smooth.

Seeing how you found so little fresh basil in the can of Full Red Pizza Sauce that you opened yesterday, I asked about that. I was told that they put one or two large basil leaves in each can and, as little as that may seem, it really adds flavor to the tomatoes. As it turns out, Stanislaus has a very large room filled with fresh basil plants and there are workers whose only job is to pick fresh basil leaves off of the plants and add them to the tomatoes. They do this all day long. I suppose that they go home smelling like basil.

To see if I could get any information about the Stanislaus products that Buddy's uses, I specifically asked about that, figuring nothing ventured nothing gained. I was told that that information is proprietary.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #727 on: December 11, 2012, 03:53:30 PM »
How long ago was lufty working at Buddy's? Maybe they are mixing the 7/11 product with the paste, just a guess...
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #728 on: December 11, 2012, 06:31:49 PM »
How long ago was lufty working at Buddy's? Maybe they are mixing the 7/11 product with the paste, just a guess...
Bob,

That is a fair question. No business is static, and one can expect many changes over time in just about any business. And that includes Buddy's Pizza. In that vein, I have read and listened to several reports where key employees of Buddy's discussed changes they were making because of pricing and other economic issues. Detroit is suffering mightily, with reports having surfaced in recent days that Detroit is on the verge of filing for bankruptcy.

I first stumbled across lufty in April of last year in some posts that he had entered at the reddit website about his former job at Buddy's. I found the reddit website through a Google search. At the time, lufty said that he had left Buddy's three years prior. So, measured from today, it was a bit over 4 1/2 years ago that lufty worked at Buddy's.

Shortly after I studied what lufty reported at reddit, I had exchanges with Buddy's where I tried to learn whether Buddy's had made significant changes to the ingredients used to make their pizzas. The cheese and sauce were two such ingredients. Not long ago, in this thread, at Reply 131 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221124/topicseen.html#msg221124, I reported on the substance of those exchanges. As can be seen from that reply, Buddy's said, among other things, that they had not changed any of their core ingredients for sauces. That was the best I was able to get out of Buddy's. However, I am sure that Norma would be satisfied if she were able to replicate a Buddy's pizza of a few years ago. Such a pizza would most likely be better than the ones that Buddy's is now turning out, at least based on reports I have read from long-time Buddy's fans. However, I could be wrong and Buddy's may still using the same basic products to make today's pizza as it did a few years ago.

This is what lufty specifically said about the Buddy's sauce: "The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time." I don't know whether lufty actually meant a tomato paste or whether he might have meant a crushed tomato or heavy puree or something similar. But, whatever the tomato product was, water was added to it. Hopefully, Norma will report back on the results of today's cloned Buddy's pizzas using the Full Red Pizza Sauce with Basil especially since she has a sample of the Buddy's Original pizza sauce to use for comparison purposes.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #729 on: December 11, 2012, 08:51:47 PM »
Norma,
I was curious where Foremost Farms makes its brick cheese and I did check out all of the cheese making plants shown on the Foremost Farms map but did not see any whose fact sheets indicate that they make the brick cheese. Apparently brick cheese is not a big mover. As for Deli Source/Wilmont, I do not believe that Foremost Farms sells their product. Deli Source/Wilmont appears to be one of many companies that buy cheeses from various suppliers and process them (cut, grind/shred, wrap, etc.) for the retail market. Deli Source/Wilmont may not even buy their cheeses from Foremost Farms.
Until Buddy's reworked their website, and before they went to Foremost Farms, they said that their brick cheese was made for them in Wisconsin by Kraft. You can follow the Buddy's cheese trail at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. That is the post that I use, and periodically edit, to serve as my "master" post on the Buddy's pizza. It's up to you if you want to contact Kraft to see if they are still in the business of selling brick cheese. There cant be many companies, pizzerias or otherwise, that have a need for large quantities of brick cheese to justify committing resources to that product. If you contact them and find that they still sell brick cheese, you might try to get a sample to try.
I do not believe that Buddy's is using the Great Lakes Eddie's brick cheese. You will recall from what you posted at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220645/topicseen.html#msg220645 that the woman at Buddy's who responded to one of your emails made reference to the nutritional label for their brick cheese showing 9 grams of fat for a 28-ounce sample. The Eddie's brick cheese specs that you reposted this morning show 8 grams of fat.

Another point to keep in mind about the type of brick cheese that Buddy's is using is that the "standard of identity" for brick cheese in the federal regulations does not take into account that brick cheese should be surface ripened with B. linens (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_cheese). I believe that that is the method that Widmer is using for at least some of its brick cheeses. For the larger volumes of brick cheese produced by companies like Foremost Farms, I would imagine that they use a different method, whatever that is. So, their brick cheese is likely to have a different flavor profile.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for being curious and checking the Foremost Farms map to see if any of the fact sheets indicated where the brick cheese is made.   Thanks also for telling me that Deli Source/Wilmont my not even buy their cheeses from Foremost Farms.

I read your link and did follow the cheese trail.  I can contact Kraft to see if they still are in the business of selling brick cheese.

Joe Widmer told me that their one kind of brick cheese is mild and the other one is a stronger tasting brick cheese, but I donít believe Buddyís is using their brick cheese. 

I didnít look about Eddieís brick cheese to see the fat content in comparison to the 9 grams of fat for a 28-ounce sample at BuddyĎs.  I just knew that the Eddieís brick cheese did taste like the brick cheese on the Buddyís pizza I purchased. 

I talked to Tom Kiefer again this morning and he said by this afternoon that I should be getting a sample of brick cheese, but until tonight there wasnít any sample, so I went to talk to Tom Kiefer again.  He told me he was sorry but no one brought him the sample today.  He still doesnít know the brand of brick cheese I will be getting a sample of, but I should have the sample of brick cheese until next week, with the brand name on the brick cheese. 

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #730 on: December 11, 2012, 08:53:33 PM »
Well, as I said, it was just a guess. Also, as we know 7/11 has citric acid added so if that is not in any of the info you guys have for Buddy's then it can definetly not be considered. Sounds like lufty gave you solid information....he would have stated if there was a second tomato product added that had evidence of "bits" in it. But as you say Peter, things are always under consideration for change...
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #731 on: December 11, 2012, 09:09:11 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, and to satisfy my curiosity, I called Stanislaus Products this morning and spoke to a customer service rep about their products. What I was looking for is a list of their tomato products that contain some tomato skin that is discernible to the naked eye. Without hesitation, the rep blurted out the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes. When I mentioned that the Full Red Pizza Sauce is described at their website as having some skins (and seeds), he said that was true but you wouldn't be able to see them in the product.

I also asked the rep about adding water to their products, as it appears that Buddy's does (and also Jet's). I know that Stanislaus discourages diluting their products with water (because it dilutes the tomato flavor) and that Stanislaus would rather that their products be diluted with another of their tomato products, but the reality is that some pizza operators dilute the Stanislaus products with water. This led to a discussion of Brix (Bx) numbers. The Brix number is a measure of the total solids in the tomato product. For the 7/11, the Bx is 10-11%; for the Full Red Pizza Sauce, it is 15-16%; for the Saporito Pizza Sauce (aka Super Heavy Concentrated Crushed), the Bx is 20-21%. I also learned that Stanislaus sells a product called Full Red Tomato Paste. That product is not in the "made from scratch" section of the Stanislaus website but I found it in the Nutrition Facts section at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Tomato-Paste.pdf. I was told that that product is not as thick as competitive offerings. It has a Bx of 20-26%. Since former Buddy's employee lufty indicated that the Buddy's sauce was made from tomato paste, it is possible that Buddy's is using the Full Red Tomato Paste. However, when I was asked if one could see the skins in the product if it were to be diluted with water, I was told no, that the product is smooth.

Seeing how you found so little fresh basil in the can of Full Red Pizza Sauce that you opened yesterday, I asked about that. I was told that they put one or two large basil leaves in each can and, as little as that may seem, it really adds flavor to the tomatoes. As it turns out, Stanislaus has a very large room filled with fresh basil plants and there are workers whose only job is to pick fresh basil leaves off of the plants and add them to the tomatoes. They do this all day long. I suppose that they go home smelling like basil.

To see if I could get any information about the Stanislaus products that Buddy's uses, I specifically asked about that, figuring nothing ventured nothing gained. I was told that that information is proprietary.

Peter

Peter,

So you think the Stanislaus 7/11 is what Buddyís might be using now?  Steve and I didnít think the Full Red Pizza Sauce was as dark as the extra Buddyís sauce today and we really could not see any tomato skins in the Full Red today.  Steve did doctor up the Full Red though and it almost tasted like Buddyís extra sauce, expect it was a little to salty from the Kosher salt Steve added. 

That is quite interesting that Stanislaus products have Brix numbers.  I didnít know that before and didnít know the Brix number is a measure of the total solids in the tomato products. 

It is also interesting that Stanislaus has a very large room filled with fresh basil plant and the workers pick fresh basil leaves off the plants and add them to the tomatoes.  I would think that would be a boring job, but guess someone has to do it.

I know the Saporito Extra Heavy sauce has more than a few basil leave in that product.   

Good for you in asking what Stanislaus product that Buddyís uses.  You are right, noting ventured is nothing gained even if you found out that information is proprietary.

Below is a picture of the Full Red Sauce with a lot of added water before Steve doctored it up.  The Full Red Sauce with water is on the left and the Buddyís extra sauce is on the right.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #732 on: December 11, 2012, 09:16:26 PM »

Detroit is suffering mightily, with reports having surfaced in recent days that Detroit is on the verge of filing for bankruptcy.

Peter

Peter,

It sure is true what you are saying about Detroit suffering mightily.  Two men came up to my stand to purchase a slice of the Detroit style pizza today and both men have been in Detroit recently.  The two men came at different times and didnít know each other.  Both men told Steve and me that we wouldnít want to go to Detroit to try out Buddyís pizza.  Neither of them were ever at Buddyís, but they both told us all what is going on in Detroit and it sure wasnít a pretty story.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #733 on: December 11, 2012, 09:22:53 PM »
I donít have time to do a full report tonight, but just wanted to say that the Buddyís clone dough made without salt made a very good crust.  I couldnít tell no salt was in the crust and Steve said if he really tasted the crust he could only taste a little that no salt was added.  We both think the bottom crust frying in the steel pan, the toppings and the caramelized edges just somehow come together and no salt is needed in the crust. I sure was surprised at those results.

Norma


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #734 on: December 11, 2012, 09:59:41 PM »
So you think the Stanislaus 7/11 is what Buddyís might be using now?  Steve and I didnít think the Full Red Pizza Sauce was as dark as the extra Buddyís sauce today and we really could not see any tomato skins in the Full Red today.  Steve did doctor up the Full Red though and it almost tasted like Buddyís extra sauce, expect it was a little to salty from the Kosher salt Steve added. 

Norma,

If what I was told by Stanislaus today is correct, then that pretty much leaves the 7/11 ground tomatoes (unpeeled) as the logical candidate for the Buddy's Original Sauce.

I didn't think to ask if the Full Red Tomato Paste was around when the Buddy's thread started but I recalled that Steve, the owner of the forum, had posted a cross reference chart of the tomato products sold by Escalon and Stanislaus. That chart is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.msg5905/topicseen.html#msg5905. As you will note, that chart was created toward the end of 2004 and the Full Red Tomato Paste is shown on the chart. So it has been around for several years. You will also note that the 7/11s are shown as being the counterpart to the Escalon 6-in-1 Ground Tomatoes with Puree. The tomatoes in that case are unpeeled, so there will be skins in the final product.

If the 7/11s aren't the right product for the Buddy's Original Sauce, then that might be the time to test out the Full Red Tomato Paste, on the chance that lufty really meant tomato paste.

I did wonder whether you would have to add water to the Stanislaus Full Red Pizza Sauce in order to get the consistency to be about the same as the sample of the Buddy's Original Sauce. That at least fits the method that lufty described.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #735 on: December 11, 2012, 10:11:52 PM »
I donít have time to do a full report tonight, but just wanted to say that the Buddyís clone dough made without salt made a very good crust.  I couldnít tell no salt was in the crust and Steve said if he really tasted the crust he could only taste a little that no salt was added.  We both think the bottom crust frying in the steel pan, the toppings and the caramelized edges just somehow come together and no salt is needed in the crust. I sure was surprised at those results.
Norma,

Thanks for the interim report and for not keeping me in complete suspense until tomorrow.

While I was awaiting your verdict, I played around with several different scenarios today in an attempt to debunk my earlier work that led me to believe that Buddy's might not be using any salt in the dough. But, whatever scenario I tested, I could not get the numbers to lead me to alter my earlier conclusion. There wasn't even enough wiggle room in the numbers to support the addition of some salt to the sauce although there may be a small amount in the spice blend that Buddy's uses.

If we later discover that there is a fair amount of salt in the Buddy's dough, then that would mean that the Buddy's Nutrition data is incomplete or flawed. 

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #736 on: December 11, 2012, 10:18:03 PM »
Norma,

If what I was told by Stanislaus today is correct, then that pretty much leaves the 7/11 ground tomatoes (unpeeled) as the logical candidate for the Buddy's Original Sauce.

I didn't think to ask if the Full Red Tomato Paste was around when the Buddy's thread started but I recalled that Steve, the owner of the forum, had posted a cross reference chart of the tomato products sold by Escalon and Stanislaus. That chart is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.msg5905/topicseen.html#msg5905. As you will note, that chart was created toward the end of 2004 and the Full Red Tomato Paste is shown on the chart. So it has been around for several years. You will also note that the 7/11s are shown as being the counterpart to the Escalon 6-in-1 Ground Tomatoes with Puree. The tomatoes in that case are unpeeled, so there will be skins in the final product.

If the 7/11s aren't the right product for the Buddy's Original Sauce, then that might be the time to test out the Full Red Tomato Paste, on the chance that lufty really meant tomato paste.

I did wonder whether you would have to add water to the Stanislaus Full Red Pizza Sauce in order to get the consistency to be about the same as the sample of the Buddy's Original Sauce. That at least fits the method that lufty described.

Peter


Peter,

If you want me to I can open the 7/11 ground tomatoes tomorrow to see if there are peels in the product.  I know I used to use 7/11 ground tomatoes with Saporito Extra Heavy Sauce, but donít recall any peels being in the sauce.  Maybe my memory is just fading though. 

Thanks for Steveís cross reference chart of the tomato products sold by Escalon and Stanislaus. 

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #737 on: December 11, 2012, 10:32:39 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the interim report and for not keeping me in complete suspense until tomorrow.

While I was awaiting your verdict, I played around with several different scenarios today in an attempt to debunk my earlier work that led me to believe that Buddy's might not be using any salt in the dough. But, whatever scenario I tested, I could not get the numbers to lead me to alter my earlier conclusion. There wasn't even enough wiggle room in the numbers to support the addition of some salt to the sauce although there may be a small amount in the spice blend that Buddy's uses.

If we later discover that there is a fair amount of salt in the Buddy's dough, then that would mean that the Buddy's Nutrition data is incomplete or flawed. 

Peter


Peter,

Although the Buddyís clone pizza did turn out well in the taste of the crust with no salt, I think I might have overfermented the dough in the steel pan.  I waited until about 2:10 PM to bake that pizza and it might have been too long.  The crumb wasnít as open as most of my other Buddyís clones today.  This is just one picture of how the dough looked right before the dressing were added.  I wanted the dough to look fermented in the steel pan something like Mary Hellerís, but I think I botched that one up.  :-D

I know you look at every way there is to understand if any salt might be added in Buddyís dough.  It is interesting that there was no wiggle room in the numbers to support the addition of some salt to the sauce, although there maybe be a small amount in the spice blend Buddyís uses. 

I think the only way we will ever discover if there is a fair amount of salt in Buddyís dough, it would only be from an insider.  I can see with all your investigating that then the Buddyís Nutrition data would be incomplete or flawed.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #738 on: December 11, 2012, 10:39:16 PM »
If you want me to I can open the 7/11 ground tomatoes tomorrow to see if there are peels in the product.

Norma,

Thanks for the offer but there is no hurry on the 7/11s. Whenever you are ready will be fine.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #739 on: December 11, 2012, 10:57:54 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the offer but there is no hurry on the 7/11s. Whenever you are ready will be fine.

Peter

Peter,

I donít know if you recall when I did the monthly challenge for ďMy Favorite Red Pizza Sauce RecipeĒ, but if you donít recall this is the recipe I used to use for my pizza sauce at market with 7/11 and Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  That is why I donít remember if the 7/11 ground tomatoes have peels in them.  I might open the can tomorrow, because I sure donít remember the peels at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9744.msg85554.html#msg85554  I am now curious is the 7/11 did have peels.

Norma 

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #740 on: December 11, 2012, 11:47:40 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the offer but there is no hurry on the 7/11s. Whenever you are ready will be fine.

Peter
Oh they are in there, believe me.
This Brix (Bx) scale is interesting, Peter. At what point(if any) does a canned tomato product have 0 Bx measurement? As you noted, even a "paste" has a 20-26 Bx. Would heat be needed to refine something to the point where it would have no measureable "solids"?
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #741 on: December 12, 2012, 07:37:36 AM »
After I posted the picture of the Buddyís clone emergency dough ball without salt yesterday morning I remembered that I forgot to scale the dough ball down to 9 ounces.  I then took the poppy seeds off of the dough ball and took some extra dough off the dough ball and then reballed the dough ball.  I didnít oil the dough ball again because I didnít want to introduce any more oil into the dough ball.  The poppy seeds were placed on again, but I must have left one fall down in the container.  The first picture of the dough ball was taken at 9:30 AM and the spacing of the poppy seeds had moved pretty much.  The emergency dough ball then sat in the container about another 25 minutes before I lightly floured the dumped out dough ball on the marble slab.  The dough ball easily opened to fit in the steel pan.  The steel pan was oiled with Canola oil.  The ambient temperature at market was about 70 degrees F and I didnít place the dough in the steel pan anywhere where it might be warmer.  It was just left on the pizza pan rack to temper.  I wanted to see what would happen it the dough in the steel pan was left to temper for awhile.  At 2:30 PM is when I dressed the tempered dough with 1.25 ounces of pepperoni, 8 ounces of AMPI mild white cheddar (5oz.) mozzarellas (3oz.) and 4 ounces of the Full Red sauce that Steve doctored up.  After the bake the Buddyís emergency clone pizza weighed 593 grams, or 1 lb. 4.9 ounces. 

The dough seemed to rise in the steel pan more when using this long temper time, but where I think I might have botched-up is it might have been too long of a temper time.  The pizza was still good, but I guess from the weight of the cheeses, pepperoni and sauce it might have then have made the crumb less airy and also gave a gum line.  The gum line did taste good, but is not what I am looking for in trying to clone a Buddyís pizza.  As I posted before the salt in the dough sure isnít missed in the taste of the crust.  I have no idea is salt would have been added though if the dough could have been tempered as long as it did.  I surely didnít press on the tempered skin at all and just lightly applied the dressings.  The height of the sides of the pizza look higher, but in the middle of the pizza the height wasnít as high.

The taste of the doctored-up sauce was nice and fresh on this pizza and sure wasnít bland. 

I think the logistics of trying to make a Buddyís clone in my small operation is going to take a lot of thoughts on how I am going to let the doughs temper in the steel pans and also have them ready at will.  More on that later when I post the rest of the pizzas and pictures.  The Buddyís clone Detroit style pizzas did sell well yesterday and market really wasnít that busy, but I had problems keeping up with everything.  Also since I am making NY style and Greek style pizzas trying to keep everything running smoothly will take some doings on my part if I want NY style pizza and Detroit style pizzas to offer for sale.

Norma


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #742 on: December 12, 2012, 07:40:06 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #743 on: December 12, 2012, 07:41:30 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #744 on: December 12, 2012, 07:43:52 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #745 on: December 12, 2012, 07:45:45 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #746 on: December 12, 2012, 07:47:11 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #747 on: December 12, 2012, 07:59:22 AM »
If anyone is interested in knowing the history of brick cheese this is the story on Widmerís Cheese Cellars website.

In 1877 Jossi came back to Wisconsin, where took the task of running a newly built Wisconsin plant where he set out to produce Brick cheese. Jossiís success led to the spread of the Brick recipe. Over the year Jossi taught the recipe for Brick to a dozen other Wisconsin dairies, In 1883, he gave the cheese factory to his brother, who later sold it to Kraft (the story of dozens of small Wisconsin dairies). Jossi died in Milwaukee in 1902. Fortunately his cheese legacy lived on.

http://www.widmerscheese.com/pages/The-Story-of-Wisconsin-Brick-Cheese.html

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #748 on: December 12, 2012, 09:21:26 AM »
Norma,

All things considered, you still ended up with a very nice looking pizza. I also tend to agree with you that the long temper time, even at 70 degrees F, perhaps resulted in excessive fermentation of the dough. High-yeast doughs can take a lot of punishment (e.g, multiple punchdowns and risings) but it is still best to operate within a set of defined parameters to prevent the dough from fermenting too much. In this case, the absence of salt would aggravate that problem.

The truest test of a salt-free Buddy's clone dough would be to follow the protocol that Buddy's is using to make its 1-2-hour dough. In practice, that fermentation period might be up to 3 hours, which is the span of time between the first dough batch that is made at the start of each day and the lunch service that starts at 11:00AM on weekdays and 11:30AM on weekends. That protocol may not be ideal for your market setting given all of the other things you are trying to do, so you may find some other protocol to be better suited for your purposes. Buddy's only has to worry about making only one type of dough and do it expertly, not several different types. I'm not sure how a no-salt, cold-fermented Buddy's dough clone would work for your setting at market but even if you can make such a dough work, you might still choose to use a dough with some salt in it. That is something that could be the subject of some experimentation.

All of the above aside, you demonstrated that it is possible to make a credible Buddy's clone dough without any salt. With some tweaking, possibly of the yeast and/or fermentation time, it might even be possible to improve the results.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #749 on: December 12, 2012, 09:48:57 AM »
This Brix (Bx) scale is interesting, Peter. At what point(if any) does a canned tomato product have 0 Bx measurement? As you noted, even a "paste" has a 20-26 Bx. Would heat be needed to refine something to the point where it would have no measureable "solids"?
Bob,

A Bx value of zero would apply to water. In fact, refractometers used to take Bx readings are zeroed out with distilled water. As you move down from high Bx numbers to lower Bx numbers for tomato products, the solids contents go down. For example, some time ago I had a discussion about Bx values with a food broker in the Dallas area when I was trying to find out what kind of tomatoes Malnati's was using. In the course of that discussion, I was told that a heavy tomato juice had a Bx value of about 6-6.5 (see Reply 158 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg94210/topicseen.html#msg94210). A more watery tomato juice would have an even lower Bx value.

If you are interested in seeing other Bx values for other products, see the charts at http://www.omega.com/Green/pdf/REF_Refrac_Value.pdf. You will also note the density conversion chart. Sometimes producers of tomato products specify those products by density rather than Bx percent. You can see an example of this in the table I referenced earlier at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.msg5905.html#msg5905. The 1.07, 1.08 and 1.09 numbers in that chart are density numbers.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:22:28 AM by Pete-zza »


 

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