Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 162685 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #740 on: December 11, 2012, 11:47:40 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the offer but there is no hurry on the 7/11s. Whenever you are ready will be fine.

Peter
Oh they are in there, believe me.
This Brix (Bx) scale is interesting, Peter. At what point(if any) does a canned tomato product have 0 Bx measurement? As you noted, even a "paste" has a 20-26 Bx. Would heat be needed to refine something to the point where it would have no measureable "solids"?
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #741 on: December 12, 2012, 07:37:36 AM »
After I posted the picture of the Buddyís clone emergency dough ball without salt yesterday morning I remembered that I forgot to scale the dough ball down to 9 ounces.  I then took the poppy seeds off of the dough ball and took some extra dough off the dough ball and then reballed the dough ball.  I didnít oil the dough ball again because I didnít want to introduce any more oil into the dough ball.  The poppy seeds were placed on again, but I must have left one fall down in the container.  The first picture of the dough ball was taken at 9:30 AM and the spacing of the poppy seeds had moved pretty much.  The emergency dough ball then sat in the container about another 25 minutes before I lightly floured the dumped out dough ball on the marble slab.  The dough ball easily opened to fit in the steel pan.  The steel pan was oiled with Canola oil.  The ambient temperature at market was about 70 degrees F and I didnít place the dough in the steel pan anywhere where it might be warmer.  It was just left on the pizza pan rack to temper.  I wanted to see what would happen it the dough in the steel pan was left to temper for awhile.  At 2:30 PM is when I dressed the tempered dough with 1.25 ounces of pepperoni, 8 ounces of AMPI mild white cheddar (5oz.) mozzarellas (3oz.) and 4 ounces of the Full Red sauce that Steve doctored up.  After the bake the Buddyís emergency clone pizza weighed 593 grams, or 1 lb. 4.9 ounces. 

The dough seemed to rise in the steel pan more when using this long temper time, but where I think I might have botched-up is it might have been too long of a temper time.  The pizza was still good, but I guess from the weight of the cheeses, pepperoni and sauce it might have then have made the crumb less airy and also gave a gum line.  The gum line did taste good, but is not what I am looking for in trying to clone a Buddyís pizza.  As I posted before the salt in the dough sure isnít missed in the taste of the crust.  I have no idea is salt would have been added though if the dough could have been tempered as long as it did.  I surely didnít press on the tempered skin at all and just lightly applied the dressings.  The height of the sides of the pizza look higher, but in the middle of the pizza the height wasnít as high.

The taste of the doctored-up sauce was nice and fresh on this pizza and sure wasnít bland. 

I think the logistics of trying to make a Buddyís clone in my small operation is going to take a lot of thoughts on how I am going to let the doughs temper in the steel pans and also have them ready at will.  More on that later when I post the rest of the pizzas and pictures.  The Buddyís clone Detroit style pizzas did sell well yesterday and market really wasnít that busy, but I had problems keeping up with everything.  Also since I am making NY style and Greek style pizzas trying to keep everything running smoothly will take some doings on my part if I want NY style pizza and Detroit style pizzas to offer for sale.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #742 on: December 12, 2012, 07:40:06 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #743 on: December 12, 2012, 07:41:30 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #744 on: December 12, 2012, 07:43:52 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #745 on: December 12, 2012, 07:45:45 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #746 on: December 12, 2012, 07:47:11 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #747 on: December 12, 2012, 07:59:22 AM »
If anyone is interested in knowing the history of brick cheese this is the story on Widmerís Cheese Cellars website.

In 1877 Jossi came back to Wisconsin, where took the task of running a newly built Wisconsin plant where he set out to produce Brick cheese. Jossiís success led to the spread of the Brick recipe. Over the year Jossi taught the recipe for Brick to a dozen other Wisconsin dairies, In 1883, he gave the cheese factory to his brother, who later sold it to Kraft (the story of dozens of small Wisconsin dairies). Jossi died in Milwaukee in 1902. Fortunately his cheese legacy lived on.

http://www.widmerscheese.com/pages/The-Story-of-Wisconsin-Brick-Cheese.html

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #748 on: December 12, 2012, 09:21:26 AM »
Norma,

All things considered, you still ended up with a very nice looking pizza. I also tend to agree with you that the long temper time, even at 70 degrees F, perhaps resulted in excessive fermentation of the dough. High-yeast doughs can take a lot of punishment (e.g, multiple punchdowns and risings) but it is still best to operate within a set of defined parameters to prevent the dough from fermenting too much. In this case, the absence of salt would aggravate that problem.

The truest test of a salt-free Buddy's clone dough would be to follow the protocol that Buddy's is using to make its 1-2-hour dough. In practice, that fermentation period might be up to 3 hours, which is the span of time between the first dough batch that is made at the start of each day and the lunch service that starts at 11:00AM on weekdays and 11:30AM on weekends. That protocol may not be ideal for your market setting given all of the other things you are trying to do, so you may find some other protocol to be better suited for your purposes. Buddy's only has to worry about making only one type of dough and do it expertly, not several different types. I'm not sure how a no-salt, cold-fermented Buddy's dough clone would work for your setting at market but even if you can make such a dough work, you might still choose to use a dough with some salt in it. That is something that could be the subject of some experimentation.

All of the above aside, you demonstrated that it is possible to make a credible Buddy's clone dough without any salt. With some tweaking, possibly of the yeast and/or fermentation time, it might even be possible to improve the results.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #749 on: December 12, 2012, 09:48:57 AM »
This Brix (Bx) scale is interesting, Peter. At what point(if any) does a canned tomato product have 0 Bx measurement? As you noted, even a "paste" has a 20-26 Bx. Would heat be needed to refine something to the point where it would have no measureable "solids"?
Bob,

A Bx value of zero would apply to water. In fact, refractometers used to take Bx readings are zeroed out with distilled water. As you move down from high Bx numbers to lower Bx numbers for tomato products, the solids contents go down. For example, some time ago I had a discussion about Bx values with a food broker in the Dallas area when I was trying to find out what kind of tomatoes Malnati's was using. In the course of that discussion, I was told that a heavy tomato juice had a Bx value of about 6-6.5 (see Reply 158 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg94210/topicseen.html#msg94210). A more watery tomato juice would have an even lower Bx value.

If you are interested in seeing other Bx values for other products, see the charts at http://www.omega.com/Green/pdf/REF_Refrac_Value.pdf. You will also note the density conversion chart. Sometimes producers of tomato products specify those products by density rather than Bx percent. You can see an example of this in the table I referenced earlier at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,651.msg5905.html#msg5905. The 1.07, 1.08 and 1.09 numbers in that chart are density numbers.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:22:28 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #750 on: December 12, 2012, 10:11:06 AM »
Norma,

All things considered, you still ended up with a very nice looking pizza. I also tend to agree with you that the long temper time, even at 70 degrees F, perhaps resulted in excessive fermentation of the dough. High-yeast doughs can take a lot of punishment (e.g, multiple punchdowns and risings) but it is still best to operate within a set of defined parameters to prevent the dough from fermenting too much. In this case, the absence of salt would aggravate that problem.

The truest test of a salt-free Buddy's clone dough would be to follow the protocol that Buddy's is using to make its 1-2-hour dough. In practice, that fermentation period might be up to 3 hours, which is the span of time between the first dough batch that is made at the start of each day and the lunch service that starts at 11:00AM on weekdays and 11:30AM on weekends. That protocol may not be ideal for your market setting given all of the other things you are trying to do, so you may find some other protocol to be better suited for your purposes. Buddy's only has to worry about making only one type of dough and do it expertly, not several different types. I'm not sure how a no-salt, cold-fermented Buddy's dough clone would work for your setting at market but even if you can make such a dough work, you might still choose to use a dough with some salt in it. That is something that could be the subject of some experimentation.

All of the above aside, you demonstrated that it is possible to make a credible Buddy's clone dough without any salt. With some tweaking, possibly of the yeast and/or fermentation time, it might even be possible to improve the results.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts and comments about the Buddyís emergency dough pizza without salt.  I thought maybe the absence of salt might have aggravated the problem of too long of a temper time, but wasnít sure.  I know that high yeasts dough can take a lot of punishment. 

I would be willing to try a experiment with a salt-free Buddyís clone dough and follow the protocol that Buddyís uses for next week, but donít know how that would work out in my market situation all the time.  I canít keep making emergency doughs all day with only me and Steve working at my small stand.  We barely have room to get by each other and get it each others way all the time.  With more dishes to do with mixing of more doughs, I donít see how we would be able to handle that either.  With my stand being all out in the open there is no room to hide dirty stuff and messes.  Steve and I keep wiping stuff down all day and doing dishes, but pizza trays and whatnot do pile up fast.  No wonder I have dishpan hands. 

In addition to the no salt experiment with the time frame Buddyís uses, what salt amount do you suggest for me to try next week for my regular BuddyĎs clones?  What improvements do you have in mind?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #751 on: December 12, 2012, 10:13:31 AM »
To begin to explain the story of what happened yesterday, was when I arrived at market I first turned on the oven, got a few other things ready and then put puts two skins in steel pans.  The pans where then put on top of the oven where it is warmer.  They were covered with lids.  I then went about doing other things that needed to be done and started making regular pizzas at about 9:30 AM.  About 10:30AM two men came up to my pizza stand and wanted Detroit style slices.  I looked in the small and large steel pans and the dough sure wasnít fermenting, or if it was it sure wasnĎt fermenting much.  I told the men that I am new at attempting Detroit style pizza and really am not that well organized yet.  These men had purchased Detroit style pizza the other week later in the day.  I sure donít know how I will be able to have the dough fermented enough in the steel pans so early in the morning.  It even takes awhile for the dough to ferment when keeping the steel pans on top of the oven.  These men were understanding and hopefully they will return.  I then decided to try one dough in the steel pan to see what would happen.  Well the pizza hardly rose, if at all, when the bake was done.  The only positive thing that came out of that experiment is that Steve said the pizza tasted like an old Ellioís pizza, before they made changes to that frozen pizzas.  Steve liked the pizza, but I sure canít sell it that way.  At the end of the day 2 slices of that pizza were still left on a tray that was kept out of the customers views.  The first picture is of one slice that was sitting there all day.  I tried different methods though out the day of tempering the doughs in the steel pans.  I also used my Hatco Unit kept at about 98 degrees F and although those doughs did ferment faster, the skins still want to dry out even with lids on.  I sure am at a loss to what to try.  The skins drying out really didnít affect the crumb structure much, but those pizzas werenít as light in texture.  I didnít add any water in the Hatco Unit though to see if that would keep the skin moister.  If I do use the Hatco Unit for tempering doughs, I donít know what I will use to display the Buddyís clone pizzas.

These are some of the other Buddyís clone pizzas that were made yesterday.  The first one was a pizza with dressings of my regular blend of cheeses, pepperoni, spinach, Cappicola ham, salami and Cento tomatoes pieces.  That pie turned out okay, but think there still was a gum line from too much oiling off of the meats, or the water from the spinach.  I guess that is what the gum line was from, but the pizza was still good.  I donít know if I would have first oiled the crust if that would have kept the oiling off of the meats, or not, but that might be something I have to try next.  Also might try some meats on top of the pizzas for next week.  The next pizza was made with smoked apple wood bacon, cheeses, the sauce Steve doctored up and the ďCat out of the bag sauceĒ Steve brought along to market.  That pizza was excellent in my opinion.  The ďCat out of the bag sauceĒ was excellent in combination with the doctored up sauce.  Wow, I could just keep eating that ďCat out of the bagĒ sauce Dave posted about plain all the time.  It is so delicious.   

I didnít take pictures of all the pizzas, but did oil two pans with soybean/vegetable oil (Crisco).  The bottom crusts browned just like when using Canola oil.  I did sprinkle some Greek oregano on some of the pizzas.  All the pizza were made with the sauce applied before the bake.

The market manager came and tried a slice of the Buddyís clone and he really enjoyed it.  He wanted to purchase a whole big pizza for the men in the shop, but I didnít have anymore big dough balls left.  Something to think about until next week.

The one other pizza that was dressed just like the emergency dough without salt was weighed after the bake.  It had the same amount of cheeses, pepperoni and sauce on the pizza and weighed 583 grams after the bake.  That steel pan was oiled with soybean oil.

Tom Kiefer told me he would give me a much better price on the apple wood smoked bacon if I want to continue using that bacon on my Buddyís clone pizzas.  That is also another thing I have to soon decide what kinds of toppings do I want to try to make consistently and what to name them.

Everyone that has tried the Buddyís clones have really liked them.  The manger of the Old Mill flea and antique market thinks I should stop selling NY style pizzas and just make Detroit style pies.  I am not ready to do that at this time.  He was a person that really liked my NY style pizzas before.  There are regular customers that do like my NY style pizzas.  I sure donít have much of any extra room to add additional equipment in my small pizza stand.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #752 on: December 12, 2012, 10:15:17 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #753 on: December 12, 2012, 10:17:06 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #754 on: December 12, 2012, 10:19:16 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #755 on: December 12, 2012, 10:21:39 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #756 on: December 12, 2012, 10:23:39 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #757 on: December 12, 2012, 10:26:14 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #758 on: December 12, 2012, 10:28:36 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #759 on: December 12, 2012, 11:29:38 AM »
I would be willing to try a experiment with a salt-free Buddyís clone dough and follow the protocol that Buddyís uses for next week, but donít know how that would work out in my market situation all the time.  I canít keep making emergency doughs all day with only me and Steve working at my small stand.  We barely have room to get by each other and get it each others way all the time.  With more dishes to do with mixing of more doughs, I donít see how we would be able to handle that either.  With my stand being all out in the open there is no room to hide dirty stuff and messes.  Steve and I keep wiping stuff down all day and doing dishes, but pizza trays and whatnot do pile up fast.  No wonder I have dishpan hands.  

In addition to the no salt experiment with the time frame Buddyís uses, what salt amount do you suggest for me to try next week for my regular BuddyĎs clones?  What improvements do you have in mind?

Norma,

Operating as you do only one day at market, and having to plan and organize around that one day, and offering three different types of pizzas (Lehmann NY, Greek and Detroit style), will always pose some problems with logistics. Most pizza operators make only one style of pizza, they do it just about every day, and they know their customer base and how to plan how many pizzas to make each day based on historical data. That is a lot easier in my opinion than what you are trying to do.

One thing you might try with your regular cold fermented Buddy's clone dough to speed things up is to increase the amount of yeast you have been using by about 20% and reduce the amount of salt to 1.75%. Since the dough balls will be formed into skins in the pans, it won't be critical that the dough ferments faster than normal and rises more than normal (e.g., a tripling rather than a doubling). Hopefully, that will put your regimen closer to the Lehmann NY regimen.

As far as improvements of the no-salt emergency Buddy's clone dough are concerned, I haven't given much thought to that. It would all depend on the timeframe you would want to use. For example, if you wanted to speed things up, you could use even more yeast than you have been using. Conversely, if you want to slow things down, you could use less yeast. You can also use your deli case for holding purposes pending use. And you also have the top of your oven to warm things up so that you don't have to use your Hatco unit. However, all of these options are moot if you cannot fit a salt-free emergency Buddy's clone dough into your operations. In that case, it might be better to concentrate on getting your cold fermented Buddy's clone dough is order. Remember, the main reason for all of the emergency Buddy's clone dough experiments has been to try to reverse engineer and clone the real Buddy's dough and pizza. And I think we have learned a great deal from those experiments and maybe have come a lot closer to that objective (you will note that we are up to 759 replies in just shy of a month). The reality is that emergency Buddy's clone doughs might be a better fit at home or in a normal commercial setting than in yours at market.

Peter


 

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