Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 138203 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #800 on: December 15, 2012, 04:33:27 PM »


I am almost willing to go along with anything, but donít know if I am willing to go along with a popsicle stick to do measurements.  For one thing I donít even have any popsicle sticks in my home, but there are many out it my shed with loads of craft stuff from my granddaughters adventures from awhile ago, but all that stuff is piled up and behind other stuff.  To dig some out in the cold isnít something I really want to do right now.  I would also have to saw off the popsicle stick, or cut it somehow, so it would fit the pan with a lid or aluminum foil, which I plan to use.

Since I think I did overferment the dough at Reply 742 3rd picture down, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg227563.html#msg227563  I think I now know when the dough in the steel pan looks overfermented enough from all the experiments on this thread.  From what I have seen the dough really doesnít rise a lot in the steel pan with the amount of dough I am using.

As Peter already knows I am not good with any calculations, or evening measuring using a measuring tape.  If you guys really want me to try a popsicle stick I guess I can try.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #801 on: December 15, 2012, 04:46:30 PM »
If you guys really want me to try a popsicle stick I guess I can try.

Norma,

There is no need to do anything further at this point except possibly to put a couple of poppy seeds in the middle of a spread out dough in the pan and monitor the spacing as previously discussed. Bob and I were just kicking around some ideas that might prove helpful if the poppy seed trick doesn't work in your case.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #802 on: December 15, 2012, 05:04:44 PM »
Norma,

There is no need to do anything further at this point except possibly to put a couple of poppy seeds in the middle of a spread out dough in the pan and monitor the spacing as previously discussed. Bob and I were just kicking around some ideas that might prove helpful if the poppy seed trick doesn't work in your case.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks to both of you guys for kicking ideas around for me to try to see how much the dough ferments in the steel pan until Tuesday, but why canít I just use my cheap paper measuring tape and push the dough aside a little in the steel pan and take a photo of that on Tuesday, in addition to using the poppy seed trick. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #803 on: December 15, 2012, 05:09:52 PM »
Thanks to both of you guys for kicking ideas around for me to try to see how much the dough ferments in the steel pan until Tuesday, but why canít I just use my cheap paper measuring tape and push the dough aside a little in the steel pan and take a photo of that on Tuesday, in addition to using the poppy seed trick. 

Norma,

If I understand what you propose to do, would you take "before" and "after" measurements and photos, once before the dough rises and again after it has risen to the desired level?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #804 on: December 15, 2012, 05:31:26 PM »
Norma,

If I understand what you propose to do, would you take "before" and "after" measurements and photos, once before the dough rises and again after it has risen to the desired level?

Peter

Peter,

I can do as you suggested, but the before measurement might be a little flawed since I try to push the dough on the edges of the steel pans up a little more than the center dough.  As soon as I open the dough ball the edges are formed, something like this picture that I posted before this week.  That is probably how the dough will look in the steel pans on Monday when I leave market, but on Monday there will be poppy seeds in the center.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #805 on: December 15, 2012, 05:43:50 PM »
I can do as you suggested, but the before measurement might be a little flawed since I try to push the dough on the edges of the steel pans up a little more than the center dough.  As soon as I open the dough ball the edges are formed, something like this picture that I posted before this week.  That is probably how the dough will look in the steel pans on Monday when I leave market, but on Monday there will be poppy seeds in the center.

Norma,

You definitely want to push the dough up at the corners since that seems to be part of the dough forming protocol that Buddy's uses.

For now, why don't you just try the poppy seed trick. If that doesn't work, then we can see if there is another solution.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #806 on: December 15, 2012, 06:22:08 PM »
Norma,

You definitely want to push the dough up at the corners since that seems to be part of the dough forming protocol that Buddy's uses.

For now, why don't you just try the poppy seed trick. If that doesn't work, then we can see if there is another solution.

Peter

Peter,

I will just try the poppy seed trick for this week.  I donít even think Bobís idea of using a popsicle stick would really work either since I do have the edges pressed up on the steel pan all the time now.  I would think the popsicle stick first measurement might be flawed also.  I do appreciate any ideas though, for any help that I can get from Bob or another member.

I also think I can just judge how much the dough has risen by my naked eye.

Norma    
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 08:02:55 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #807 on: December 15, 2012, 07:39:57 PM »
Norma,

I thought that you might find this photo of interest inasmuch as it shows how the dough balls are put in pans and cross stacked at the Detroit Style Pizza Co: http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/07/31/9753434/pans2.jpg.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #808 on: December 15, 2012, 08:15:24 PM »
Norma,

I thought that you might find this photo of interest inasmuch as it shows how the dough balls are put in pans and cross stacked at the Detroit Style Pizza Co: http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/07/31/9753434/pans2.jpg.

Peter


Peter,

I do find that photo of interest in how it shows the how the dough balls in the pans are cross stacked at the Detroit Style Pizza Co.  Do you think I show try to ferment my doughs ball that way for Monday (but cover them) and then press the dough out the rest of the way on Tuesday morning, if the dough hasn't expanded enough?  It sure looks like the dough balls are in various stages of expanding in the steel pan and not really pressed out like I have been doing.

Maybe I could try out that method for Tuesday too, when the dough balls are cold fermented for one day.

Thanks for the link and photo.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #809 on: December 15, 2012, 08:29:08 PM »
Norma,

It's up to you how to manage the dough balls in the pans. I would imagine that most of the Detroit area places use similar methods but don't make overnight room temperature fermented doughs. They are perhaps high-yeast doughs that rise fast in the pans and become easy to spread out not long thereafter. A low-yeast dough might ferment faster if spread out sooner rather than later and it might be better not to disturb the dough since the yeast might not be enough to give the dough more oomph if the dough is disturbed too much. Maybe you will learn more about these sorts of things with your upcoming experiments.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #810 on: December 15, 2012, 08:43:19 PM »
Norma,

It's up to you how to manage the dough balls in the pans. I would imagine that most of the Detroit area places use similar methods but don't make overnight room temperature fermented doughs. They are perhaps high-yeast doughs that rise fast in the pans and become easy to spread out not long thereafter. A low-yeast dough might ferment faster if spread out sooner rather than later and it might be better not to disturb the dough since the yeast might not be enough to give the dough more oomph if the dough is disturbed too much. Maybe you will learn more about these sorts of things with your upcoming experiments.

Peter



Peter,

I didnít think about those dough balls probably being high yeast dough balls.  I can understand that a low-yeast dough might ferment faster if spread out sooner rather than later and it may be better not to disturb the dough since the yeast might not be enough to provide the oomph if it is disturbed.

Maybe I will ferment the dough ball without the salt in the same fashion as the Detroit Pizza Company does on Tuesday.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #811 on: December 17, 2012, 11:32:02 AM »
I had a chance to speak to Fritz from Kraft Foods this morning and he is from Reading, Pa.  He said he doesnít know if Kraft sells brick cheese in the foodservice division, but he will find out.  Fritz asked me what kind of brick cheese I was looking for and was it a mozzarella, cheddar or something else.  I explained to Fritz what kind of brick cheese I was looking for.  We also exchanged emails and Fritz said he would try to get me a sample of Kraftís brick cheese if they still sell it.  I also asked Fritz if I could get the Nutrition Facts for Kraftís brick cheese.

I also got an email from Land OíLakes today from using the contact feature on their webpage.  The email gave me a number to call regarding Land 0í Lakes foodservice products.  I donít have time to call that number now, but will later this week. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #812 on: December 17, 2012, 06:12:31 PM »
Well, like I am always saying the temperature at market was different today then Friday.  When I got there today it was 60 degrees F.  It can be seen how the humidity changed since Friday too.  I had figured out the formulation on the expanded dough calculating tool, so that is what I used.  The 2 dough balls were made at 3:00 PM and first floured and then pressed out a little before putting them in the steel pans and then I finished pressing them out about 4:30 PM.  The dough balls were not oiled at all.  The steel pans were oiled with Canola oil.  The one steel pan was covered with a plastic lid and the other was covered with aluminum foil.

Poppy seeds were place in the middle of the two doughs when the dough was fully spread out.  It can be seen how the dough was sticky after pressing it out and the measuring tape wanted to stick, but I carefully removed it and then measured again to make sure the spacings on the poppy seeds were one inch apart.  The two steel pans are in the Hatco Unit.

I really donít have much hope for these doughs tempering okay until tomorrow morning at the right time, since the temperature at market varies all over in the temperatures.  I had my small heater on at market today, but it just takes the chill off and it really didnít change the temperature at market.

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #813 on: December 17, 2012, 06:13:43 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #814 on: December 17, 2012, 08:01:13 PM »
I opened the can of 7/11 ground tomatoes a little while ago to get ready to take a container to market tomorrow. The 7/11 ground tomatoes looks like the extra sauce Buddyís sent me.  The consistency is the same and it almost tastes the same, except it needs a few spices. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #815 on: December 18, 2012, 06:52:58 AM »
This is just to post that when I removed the 7/11 ground tomato sauce out of the big can last evening to post the picture for that one container, there wasnít any basil leaves in that.  I then continued to scoop the 7/11 tomato sauce into other containers.  I didnít find any basil leaves in the whole can.  Makes me wonder about the extra sauce Buddyís sent me since there was a basil leaf in the plastic container.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #816 on: December 18, 2012, 07:05:00 AM »
Norma,

Was the basil leaf in the sauce sample you received from Buddy's a "fresh" basil leaf or a dried (dehydrated) basil leaf or portion thereof? In this context, a "fresh" basil leaf can mean a fresh basil leaf that was placed by a worker into the can of tomatoes at the processor's facility (e.g., Stanislaus) or one that a worker at Buddy's put into the sauce.

If you look at the Nutrition Facts for the 7/11 tomatoes, at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/7-11-Ground-Tomatoes.pdf, you will see that there are no basil leaves in that product.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #817 on: December 18, 2012, 07:37:06 AM »
Norma,

Was the basil leaf in the sauce sample you received from Buddy's a "fresh" basil leaf or a dried (dehydrated) basil leaf or portion thereof? In this context, a "fresh" basil leaf can mean a fresh basil leaf that was placed by a worker into the can of tomatoes at the processor's facility (e.g., Stanislaus) or one that a worker at Buddy's put into the sauce.

If you look at the Nutrition Facts for the 7/11 tomatoes, at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/7-11-Ground-Tomatoes.pdf, you will see that there are no basil leaves in that product.

Peter





Peter,

I donít know think the basil leaf in the sauce sample I received from Buddyís was a fresh leaf, but canít be sure.  I never tried to put a fresh basil leaf in sauce before to see what would happen, or how it would look after being in the sauce for awhile.  I know the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce I use has many basil leaves in that product and thought the one from the extra Sauce from Buddyís did look the same.  Maybe a member did put a fresh basil leaf in a tomato product before to watch what happened.   

Thanks for the link for the 7/11 tomatoes showing there are no basil leaves in that product. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21507
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #818 on: December 18, 2012, 07:38:10 AM »
I mixed another Buddyís emergency clone dough ball this morning with no salt.  The dough was balled at about 7:15 AM.  The final dough temperature was 82.8 degrees F.  There are poppy seeds on the dough ball.  The dough was just mixed at speed 4 on my Kitchen Aid mixer for a couple of minutes.  That seemed to work okay.

I also forgot to post yesterday that the final dough temperature of the dough for the 2 dough balls tempering at market in the steel pans was 70.0 degrees F.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21862
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #819 on: December 18, 2012, 09:09:18 AM »
I donít know think the basil leaf in the sauce sample I received from Buddyís was a fresh leaf, but canít be sure.  I never tried to put a fresh basil leaf in sauce before to see what would happen, or how it would look after being in the sauce for awhile.  I know the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce I use has many basil leaves in that product and thought the one from the extra Sauce from Buddyís did look the same.  Maybe a member did put a fresh basil leaf in a tomato product before to watch what happened.   


Norma,

I couldn't quite tell from the first sentence in your post as quoted above whether you think that the basil leaf in the sample of the Original Sauce you got from Buddy's was a fresh basil leaf, or a fragment of a basil leaf, but I took your statement to mean fresh basil, not dehydrated.

In my experience, a fresh basil leaf put into a can of tomatoes at the processing facility will turn a dull green or brown-like color while in the can. In fact, it will look much like the fragment of the basil leaf in the photo that you posted in Reply 914 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg228248.html#msg228248.

In order to divine what Buddy's may be using for tomatoes in its Original Sauce, and how it makes its original Sauce, it might help to revisit what we know about Buddy's sauce. First, at the original version of its website, Buddy's said that its sauce was made with a ďblend of Stanislaus premium tomato productsĒ, along with a proprietary blend of spices and herbs (Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436). Second, former Buddy's employee lufty said that the Buddy's sauce was "tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time" (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795).

If we do a mash-up of the above two statements, I think a case can be made that Buddy's is blending the Stanislaus 7/11 product with the Stanislaus Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce w/Fresh Basil (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), thinning the blend with water, and adding seasonings. The 7/11 tomatoes would provide the skins and the Stanislaus Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce w/Fresh Basil (it is basil leaves in the plural) would provide not only a thick tomato product but also fresh basil. Moreover, I'm quite certain that the Stanislaus Saporito Super Heavy Pizza has a Brix reading of 20, which places that product at the low end of the Bx range (20-26) for the Stanislaus Full Red Tomato Paste (note, however, that the Full Red Tomato Paste has no basil, http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Tomato-Paste.pdf, which rules that product out of contention).

Blending the 7/11 and Saporito products referenced above would not be a new blend. Nick Sasso, who is one of the core members of the PMQ Think Tank, used such a blend, along with water and seasonings, when he had his pizzeria. See, for example, one of his many posts on this blend at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=46089&sid=6ae7c613506b58cb03f49797b2ff4a25#p46089. While I was at the PMQ TT, I also noted that you at one time tried a similar blend, as you noted at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=59030&sid=6ae7c613506b58cb03f49797b2ff4a25#p59030. So, if your memory on such a sauce is good, you might recall whether that sauce was like the one you got from Buddy's, at least in terms of color and consistency.

Peter