Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Skee]

Looks good Norma!  I'm curious about balling it though - why go through that step instead of just letting it bulk rise and then weighing it out directly into the pan and pressing into shape?

I started the 70% hydration dough last night with a one-hour room-temp rise and then into the fridge until tomorrow night.

[norma427]

Looks good Norma!  I'm curious about balling it though - why go through that step instead of just letting it bulk rise and then weighing it out directly into the pan and pressing into shape?

I started the 70% hydration dough last night with a one-hour room-temp rise and then into the fridge until tomorrow night.

Skee,

I guess just bulk rising would be okay, but I never tried that method before.  I have worked on Jet’s Pizza and Pizzarium doughs and have always tried to get some strength in higher hydrations doughs, either by balling, adding flour slower, double mixing, or doing some stretch and folds.  I guess that is why I ball.  If I get to make another dough tonight, I probably will try a few stretch and folds, or try other methods to try and strengthen the dough.  I really don’t know how Detroit pizzas are made.  They might just bulk rise them and then the dough goes straight into the pan. 

I look forward to seeing your pie! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I guess just bulk rising would be okay, but I never tried that method before.  I have worked on Jet’s Pizza and Pizzarium doughs and have always tried to get some strength in higher hydrations doughs, either by balling, adding flour slower, double mixing, or doing some stretch and folds.  I guess that is why I ball.  If I get to make another dough tonight, I probably will try a few stretch and folds, or try other methods to try and strengthen the dough.  I really don’t know how Detroit pizzas are made.  They might just bulk rise them and then the dough goes straight into the pan. 

Norma,

I believe the way that Buddy's dough is made is described in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I thought that you made the dough ball round so that you could use the poppy seed trick.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I believe the way that Buddy's dough is made is described in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I thought that you made the dough ball round so that you could use the poppy seed trick.

Peter

Peter,

I did read your post at Reply 318, but guess I didn’t recall all of the details for a typical dough-making schedule for square pizzas.  So the dough is in balls at Buddy‘s.  Are there any pictures of Buddy’s dough balls here on the forum, or anywhere else you have seen?  I don’t recall seeing any.  I did recall that Jet’s and Buddy’s makes their dough to be make into pizzas the same day.

The only reason I used the poppy seed trick was I wanted to know when the dough ball doubled, just for my own references.   I know I could use yeast and make a same day dough, but wonder how much yeast I would need to add for that and also wonder how the crust would taste.  I guess from your post at Reply 318 a good starting place would be about 0.60% IDY.  If I tried an experiment tomorrow with 0.60% IDY do you think it would be of any use?  I also guess the dough would then just stay at room temperature. 

Norma

[norma427]

This is the only picture I remember seeing of Buddy’s dough in a pan, but no dough ball. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23396365/ns/business-us_business/t/pizza-makers-pinch-over-rising-wheat-prices/   It looks more puffy than my dough did today.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

That is Mary Hellers of Buddy's. The same photo appears in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. Like you, I do not remember dough balls as such in any photo, just the panned doughs. At one time, Buddy's indicated at its website that it used a double kneading method. I called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy's and reported on what I found, along with some related aspects, at item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. As you will see from that item, there were several variations in the way that the Buddy's dough was made. The Buddy's website no longer mentions the double kneading. That kneading method may still be used but not revealed any longer.

Ideally, if you want to determine how much yeast to use for any given application, you would establish a reference standard for the dough, just as we recently did with a Papa Gino's clone dough. The fermentation can be at room temperature or it can be a cold fermentation. However, you don't want to go through the rather convoluted method you recently used to get your Trenton Bill dough ball to double in volume. Once the reference standard is established, we can do some calculations to determine how much IDY is needed for any given application that you would want to use, just as we did recently with the last Papa Gino's clone dough you made.

In your case, if you want to use 0.60% IDY for a room temperature fermentation, and you start sometime in the morning, I think that the dough should double in volume by sometime in the afternoon, assuming a normal room temperature for this time of year. The time and temperature that it takes to get the spacing of the poppy seeds to indicate a doubling of the dough would be used to establish the amount of yeast for any fermentation protocol you would then like to use. It can be a same day dough, an emergency dough, or a cold fermented dough. My guess is that Buddy's starts the dough in the morning and uses it throughout the day but with coolers available if needed to keep the dough from overfermenting, or possibly for holding over to the next day. That is essentially the way that Jet's does it.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

That is Mary Hellers of Buddy's. The same photo appears in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. Like you, I do not remember dough balls as such in any photo, just the panned doughs. At one time, Buddy's indicated at its website that it used a double kneading method. I called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy's and reported on what I found, along with some related aspects, at item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. As you will see from that item, there were several variations in the way that the Buddy's dough was made. The Buddy's website no longer mentions the double kneading. That kneading method may still be used but not revealed any longer.

Ideally, if you want to determine how much yeast to use for any given application, you would establish a reference standard for the dough, just as we recently did with a Papa Gino's clone dough. The fermentation can be at room temperature or it can be a cold fermentation. However, you don't want to go through the rather convoluted method you recently used to get your Trenton Bill dough ball to double in volume. Once the reference standard is established, we can do some calculations to determine how much IDY is needed for any given application that you would want to use, just as we did recently with the last Papa Gino's clone dough you made.

In your case, if you want to use 0.60% IDY for a room temperature fermentation, and you start sometime in the morning, I think that the dough should double in volume by sometime in the afternoon, assuming a normal room temperature for this time of year. The time and temperature that it takes to get the spacing of the poppy seeds to indicate a doubling of the dough would be used to establish the amount of yeast for any fermentation protocol you would then like to use. It can be a same day dough, an emergency dough, or a cold fermented dough. My guess is that Buddy's starts the dough in the morning and uses it throughout the day but with coolers available if needed to keep the dough from overfermenting, or possibly for holding over to the next day. That is essentially the way that Jet's does it.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that is Mary Hellers of Buddy’s.  I was following the Buddy’s/Shields thread awhile ago, but didn’t still go back though all the posts in that thread. 

Thanks for referencing the link to where you called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy’s.  I find your comments interesting. If the dough is double kneaded and the double kneading is just removing dough from the mixer, patting it out, stretching it, and then panning it, there would be no need to ball the dough.  Is that correct? 

I sure don’t think this will be of any help, but Buddy’s pizza is featured in this blog with a video of Buddy‘s pizza, but don’t know if it was posted before or not.  If it was posted before, just ignore it. 

http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-make-detroit-style-pizza/

While I am at home I think I will try room temperature dough tomorrow and mix in the morning.  I didn’t know those references for a room temperature fermented dough would be helpful for a cold fermented dough.  Thanks for saying you would help me with the numbers again, just like you did in the Papa Gino’s dough.

I think if I get the Detroit style Buddy’s pizza right, I will try and offer them at market.   

I find it fascinating how similar Buddy’s pizza is to a Jet’s pizza.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The only reason to ball the dough for your next experiment is to establish the reference standard. For the actual dough that goes into a pan, you might use the double kneading method. Some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The only reason to ball the dough for your next experiment is to establish the reference standard. For the actual dough that goes into a pan, you might use the double kneading method. Some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Peter

Peter,

I will ball the dough for my next experiment tomorrow to establish the reference standard.  I will try the double kneading method.  I can understand some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes.

Thanks again for you help!  

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I forgot to ask you, but do you think from madymo3d post at Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 I should oil my fingers in a bowl of oil to press the dough out.  Do you think he meant before panning the dough?  The reason I ask is because the dough in the pans from the picture with Mary Heller doesn’t look oiled.

I guess since I am going to ball the dough, I will used GIBBY’s method of punching down the dough (for the double knead method)  after the dough is panned.  GIBBY’s post was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248  When I spread out the dough yesterday, it did spread easily.

Norma

[norma427]

After the dogs woke me up early this morning to go outside (due to all the high windy conditions and rain last evening), I mixed another attempt at a dough.  I think this is the earliest in the morning that I have ever mixed a dough for pizza.

The dough was mixed like the last attempt with a flat beater in my Kitchen Aid mixer, but this time I let the dough sit for 10 minutes before balling.  The dough ball was a lot smoother using this method.  I guess that was because the gluten relaxed some.  The final dough temperature was 75.4 degrees F. and was finished mixing at 6:42 AM.  The ambient room temperature in my kitchen was 71 degrees F.  This dough is going to be room temperature fermented today. 

Norma

[norma427]

I saw this blog post this morning and the blogger said he asked questions about Buddy’s pizza to Wes Pikula (vice president of operation for Buddy’s Pizza), to explain how to make a Detroit-style pie at home.

http://12inchpetetreat.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/guest-drop-1-buddys-pizza-of-detroit/

There really isn’t a lot of information in the bloggers post, but I wonder what it means that the lean dough (I guess lean dough means no oil) makes a 2”-3” pizza crust.  That is a lot of difference in a baked crust thickness, at least in my opinion.

Norma

[norma427]

A blown-up picture from the bloggers post of Buddy's pizza years ago.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I forgot to ask you, but do you think from madymo3d post at Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 I should oil my fingers in a bowl of oil to press the dough out.  Do you think he meant before panning the dough?  The reason I ask is because the dough in the pans from the picture with Mary Heller doesn’t look oiled.

I guess since I am going to ball the dough, I will used GIBBY’s method of punching down the dough (for the double knead method)  after the dough is panned.  GIBBY’s post was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248  When I spread out the dough yesterday, it did spread easily.

Norma,

I'm sure that over the years the workers at Buddy's have found different ways to prepare the dough in the pans. Since there is no oil used in the Buddy's dough, I think I would skip the step of using oiled fingers to work the dough to the edges of the pans. I would imagine that if one uses oiled fingers to press out the dough it would be done while the dough is in the pan, not outside of it. However, I suppose either method can be made to work.

I would imagine that punching down the dough is something that is done if it needs it. For example, if a dough is rising too fast and there is still enough time to allow it to rise again before using, it might be necessary to punch the dough down. Otherwise, there may be no need to punch down the dough. This is one of those things that one learns through experience.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I saw this blog post this morning and the blogger said he asked questions about Buddy’s pizza to Wes Pikula (vice president of operation for Buddy’s Pizza), to explain how to make a Detroit-style pie at home.

http://12inchpetetreat.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/guest-drop-1-buddys-pizza-of-detroit/

There really isn’t a lot of information in the bloggers post, but I wonder what it means that the lean dough (I guess lean dough means no oil) makes a 2”-3” pizza crust.  That is a lot of difference in a baked crust thickness, at least in my opinion.

Norma,

A lean dough is one that has little or no oil or fat in it. The 2"-3" thickness number mentioned in the article you referenced most likely refers to the height of the dough in the pan rather than the height of the finished crust. If that is correct, that would suggest that the pan rises to the full height of the pan and maybe a bit higher and may be a case where the dough should be punched down. But, in general, the procedure that Wes Pikula describes in the article seems to be consistent with the methods described by the former Buddy's worker in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. As for applying cheese to the unbaked dough as it proofs, as the article mentions, it is hard to say if that is the standard procedure at Buddy's. If so, that would mean that for a pepperoni pizza, the pepperoni slices would have to go onto the dough before the cheese since Buddy's puts the pepperoni under the cheese. I would imagine that the Buddy pizzas are dressed in the standard manner although it is possible that they put the cheese down on top of a proofing dough during peak times for basic cheese pizzas. Even that seems inefficient.

You might want to reference the blog article at the Buddy's thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread.

I forgot to ask earlier but did you prefer one of the recent Trenton Bill's pizzas over the other?

Peter