Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 217172 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2012, 09:26:38 PM »
Norma,

That is Mary Hellers of Buddy's. The same photo appears in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. Like you, I do not remember dough balls as such in any photo, just the panned doughs. At one time, Buddy's indicated at its website that it used a double kneading method. I called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy's and reported on what I found, along with some related aspects, at item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. As you will see from that item, there were several variations in the way that the Buddy's dough was made. The Buddy's website no longer mentions the double kneading. That kneading method may still be used but not revealed any longer.

Ideally, if you want to determine how much yeast to use for any given application, you would establish a reference standard for the dough, just as we recently did with a Papa Gino's clone dough. The fermentation can be at room temperature or it can be a cold fermentation. However, you don't want to go through the rather convoluted method you recently used to get your Trenton Bill dough ball to double in volume. Once the reference standard is established, we can do some calculations to determine how much IDY is needed for any given application that you would want to use, just as we did recently with the last Papa Gino's clone dough you made.

In your case, if you want to use 0.60% IDY for a room temperature fermentation, and you start sometime in the morning, I think that the dough should double in volume by sometime in the afternoon, assuming a normal room temperature for this time of year. The time and temperature that it takes to get the spacing of the poppy seeds to indicate a doubling of the dough would be used to establish the amount of yeast for any fermentation protocol you would then like to use. It can be a same day dough, an emergency dough, or a cold fermented dough. My guess is that Buddy's starts the dough in the morning and uses it throughout the day but with coolers available if needed to keep the dough from overfermenting, or possibly for holding over to the next day. That is essentially the way that Jet's does it.

Peter


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2012, 10:25:55 PM »
Norma,

That is Mary Hellers of Buddy's. The same photo appears in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. Like you, I do not remember dough balls as such in any photo, just the panned doughs. At one time, Buddy's indicated at its website that it used a double kneading method. I called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy's and reported on what I found, along with some related aspects, at item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. As you will see from that item, there were several variations in the way that the Buddy's dough was made. The Buddy's website no longer mentions the double kneading. That kneading method may still be used but not revealed any longer.

Ideally, if you want to determine how much yeast to use for any given application, you would establish a reference standard for the dough, just as we recently did with a Papa Gino's clone dough. The fermentation can be at room temperature or it can be a cold fermentation. However, you don't want to go through the rather convoluted method you recently used to get your Trenton Bill dough ball to double in volume. Once the reference standard is established, we can do some calculations to determine how much IDY is needed for any given application that you would want to use, just as we did recently with the last Papa Gino's clone dough you made.

In your case, if you want to use 0.60% IDY for a room temperature fermentation, and you start sometime in the morning, I think that the dough should double in volume by sometime in the afternoon, assuming a normal room temperature for this time of year. The time and temperature that it takes to get the spacing of the poppy seeds to indicate a doubling of the dough would be used to establish the amount of yeast for any fermentation protocol you would then like to use. It can be a same day dough, an emergency dough, or a cold fermented dough. My guess is that Buddy's starts the dough in the morning and uses it throughout the day but with coolers available if needed to keep the dough from overfermenting, or possibly for holding over to the next day. That is essentially the way that Jet's does it.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that is Mary Hellers of Buddyís.  I was following the Buddyís/Shields thread awhile ago, but didnít still go back though all the posts in that thread. 

Thanks for referencing the link to where you called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddyís.  I find your comments interesting. If the dough is double kneaded and the double kneading is just removing dough from the mixer, patting it out, stretching it, and then panning it, there would be no need to ball the dough.  Is that correct? 

I sure donít think this will be of any help, but Buddyís pizza is featured in this blog with a video of BuddyĎs pizza, but donít know if it was posted before or not.  If it was posted before, just ignore it. 

http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-make-detroit-style-pizza/

While I am at home I think I will try room temperature dough tomorrow and mix in the morning.  I didnít know those references for a room temperature fermented dough would be helpful for a cold fermented dough.  Thanks for saying you would help me with the numbers again, just like you did in the Papa Ginoís dough.

I think if I get the Detroit style Buddyís pizza right, I will try and offer them at market.   

I find it fascinating how similar Buddyís pizza is to a Jetís pizza.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2012, 10:46:24 PM »
Norma,

The only reason to ball the dough for your next experiment is to establish the reference standard. For the actual dough that goes into a pan, you might use the double kneading method. Some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2012, 10:57:11 PM »
Norma,

The only reason to ball the dough for your next experiment is to establish the reference standard. For the actual dough that goes into a pan, you might use the double kneading method. Some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Peter


Peter,

I will ball the dough for my next experiment tomorrow to establish the reference standard.  I will try the double kneading method.  I can understand some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes.

Thanks again for you help!  

Norma

« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 05:13:43 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2012, 05:39:12 AM »

Peter,

I forgot to ask you, but do you think from madymo3d post at Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 I should oil my fingers in a bowl of oil to press the dough out.  Do you think he meant before panning the dough?  The reason I ask is because the dough in the pans from the picture with Mary Heller doesnít look oiled.

I guess since I am going to ball the dough, I will used GIBBYís method of punching down the dough (for the double knead method)  after the dough is panned.  GIBBYís post was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248  When I spread out the dough yesterday, it did spread easily.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2012, 07:44:24 AM »
After the dogs woke me up early this morning to go outside (due to all the high windy conditions and rain last evening), I mixed another attempt at a dough.  I think this is the earliest in the morning that I have ever mixed a dough for pizza.

The dough was mixed like the last attempt with a flat beater in my Kitchen Aid mixer, but this time I let the dough sit for 10 minutes before balling.  The dough ball was a lot smoother using this method.  I guess that was because the gluten relaxed some.  The final dough temperature was 75.4 degrees F. and was finished mixing at 6:42 AM.  The ambient room temperature in my kitchen was 71 degrees F.  This dough is going to be room temperature fermented today. 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2012, 07:46:49 AM »
I saw this blog post this morning and the blogger said he asked questions about Buddyís pizza to Wes Pikula (vice president of operation for Buddyís Pizza), to explain how to make a Detroit-style pie at home.

http://12inchpetetreat.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/guest-drop-1-buddys-pizza-of-detroit/

There really isnít a lot of information in the bloggers post, but I wonder what it means that the lean dough (I guess lean dough means no oil) makes a 2Ē-3Ē pizza crust.  That is a lot of difference in a baked crust thickness, at least in my opinion.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2012, 07:54:07 AM »
A blown-up picture from the bloggers post of Buddy's pizza years ago.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2012, 09:02:18 AM »
I forgot to ask you, but do you think from madymo3d post at Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 I should oil my fingers in a bowl of oil to press the dough out.  Do you think he meant before panning the dough?  The reason I ask is because the dough in the pans from the picture with Mary Heller doesnít look oiled.

I guess since I am going to ball the dough, I will used GIBBYís method of punching down the dough (for the double knead method)  after the dough is panned.  GIBBYís post was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248  When I spread out the dough yesterday, it did spread easily.

Norma,

I'm sure that over the years the workers at Buddy's have found different ways to prepare the dough in the pans. Since there is no oil used in the Buddy's dough, I think I would skip the step of using oiled fingers to work the dough to the edges of the pans. I would imagine that if one uses oiled fingers to press out the dough it would be done while the dough is in the pan, not outside of it. However, I suppose either method can be made to work.

I would imagine that punching down the dough is something that is done if it needs it. For example, if a dough is rising too fast and there is still enough time to allow it to rise again before using, it might be necessary to punch the dough down. Otherwise, there may be no need to punch down the dough. This is one of those things that one learns through experience.

Peter


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2012, 09:29:07 AM »
I saw this blog post this morning and the blogger said he asked questions about Buddyís pizza to Wes Pikula (vice president of operation for Buddyís Pizza), to explain how to make a Detroit-style pie at home.

http://12inchpetetreat.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/guest-drop-1-buddys-pizza-of-detroit/

There really isnít a lot of information in the bloggers post, but I wonder what it means that the lean dough (I guess lean dough means no oil) makes a 2Ē-3Ē pizza crust.  That is a lot of difference in a baked crust thickness, at least in my opinion.

Norma,

A lean dough is one that has little or no oil or fat in it. The 2"-3" thickness number mentioned in the article you referenced most likely refers to the height of the dough in the pan rather than the height of the finished crust. If that is correct, that would suggest that the pan rises to the full height of the pan and maybe a bit higher and may be a case where the dough should be punched down. But, in general, the procedure that Wes Pikula describes in the article seems to be consistent with the methods described by the former Buddy's worker in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. As for applying cheese to the unbaked dough as it proofs, as the article mentions, it is hard to say if that is the standard procedure at Buddy's. If so, that would mean that for a pepperoni pizza, the pepperoni slices would have to go onto the dough before the cheese since Buddy's puts the pepperoni under the cheese. I would imagine that the Buddy pizzas are dressed in the standard manner although it is possible that they put the cheese down on top of a proofing dough during peak times for basic cheese pizzas. Even that seems inefficient.

You might want to reference the blog article at the Buddy's thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread.

I forgot to ask earlier but did you prefer one of the recent Trenton Bill's pizzas over the other?

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2012, 10:18:10 AM »
Norma,

A lean dough is one that has little or no oil or fat in it. The 2"-3" thickness number mentioned in the article you referenced most likely refers to the height of the dough in the pan rather than the height of the finished crust. If that is correct, that would suggest that the pan rises to the full height of the pan and maybe a bit higher and may be a case where the dough should be punched down. But, in general, the procedure that Wes Pikula describes in the article seems to be consistent with the methods described by the former Buddy's worker in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. As for applying cheese to the unbaked dough as it proofs, as the article mentions, it is hard to say if that is the standard procedure at Buddy's. If so, that would mean that for a pepperoni pizza, the pepperoni slices would have to go onto the dough before the cheese since Buddy's puts the pepperoni under the cheese. I would imagine that the Buddy pizzas are dressed in the standard manner although it is possible that they put the cheese down on top of a proofing dough during peak times for basic cheese pizzas. Even that seems inefficient.

You might want to reference the blog article at the Buddy's thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread.

I forgot to ask earlier but did you prefer one of the recent Trenton Bill's pizzas over the other?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for confirming what I thought a lean dough was.  I had wondered about the 2Ē-3Ē thickness number in the article.  If what it referenced in the article is correct my dough isnít even right, because when the dough was tempered, it wasnít 2Ē-3Ē before the bake, or I am not letting the dough proof enough.  Do you think I should let my dough rise until it reaches that height and then punch it down. 

I will reference the blog article over at the Buddyís thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread and also what you posted.  I would post what I am doing over at the Buddyís thread, but donít want to hog-up that thread in case I am not doing something right.  If you think I should be posting what I am experimenting with at the Buddyís thread instead of this thread, I can change threads.  That is up to you.   

I donít know why, but think I preferred the Trenton Billís pizza yesterday with PizzaHogís TF.  I donít know if I like the cheese blend (or brand of cheddar better), the way my oven baked the pizza, or the TF better.  I might change my mind again though.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2012, 10:22:10 AM »
This picture shows how much the spacing of the poppys seeds changed in a little over 3 hrs. The picture was taken at 9:51 AM.  I was surprised that the dough ball has fermented this much in that short amount of time.  It is still 71 degrees ambient room temperature in my kitchen. 

Donít even ask if I noticed when the poppy seeds spacing showed when the dough had doubled, because I was so tired with the storm and the dogs getting me up early this morning that I took a nap.  :-D I might be able to note when the dough has doubled in the future. 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2012, 10:25:17 AM »
A picture that tells more about Detroit style pizzas and how Buddyís started.  I am posting this incase anyone doesnít know about it.  I didnít know the history of Detroit style pizzas before and donít even know if this is all of it.

I hope the picture can be read when it is posted.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2012, 11:02:34 AM »
Norma,

I wouldn't worry about how fast the dough has risen. Actually, 0.60% IDY is a lot for a room temperature fermentation at around 71 degrees F. The roughly 71% hydration and the finished dough temperature of 75.4 degrees F no doubt also helped speed up the fermentation. But I view all of this as good news because it suggests that Buddy's may be using a similar set of values for its commercial operation. If the fermentation time is indeed as short as 1-2 hours, then it is possible that even more yeast is used at Buddy's. And they may rely on coolers to hold the dough for use throughout the day. Othewise, the dough balls would overferment.

In your case, I would fit the dough to the pan and let the dough continue to rise and monitor its progress. You don't want the dough to rise to the point where it starts to collapse. If the dough approaches the top of the pan, then you might punch it down. From that point, you can let the dough rise again before using. The final height of the dough in the pan might be as shown in the photos in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. If you are not in a position to bake the pizza today, you might cover the pan and refrigerate the dough. Then, when you are ready to use the dough, let it temper at room temperature until it rises to the same point as shown in Reply 26.

FYI, based on the spacing of the poppy seeds shown in your photo, the dough more than tripled in volume from the time you made the dough to the time where the spacing of the poppy seeds went from 1" to 1.5".

Peter
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 11:05:25 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2012, 11:21:54 AM »
Norma,

I wouldn't worry about how fast the dough has risen. Actually, 0.60% IDY is a lot for a room temperature fermentation at around 71 degrees F. The roughly 71% hydration and the finished dough temperature of 75.4 degrees F no doubt also helped speed up the fermentation. But I view all of this as good news because it suggests that Buddy's may be using a similar set of values for its commercial operation. If the fermentation time is indeed as short as 1-2 hours, then it is possible that even more yeast is used at Buddy's. And they may rely on coolers to hold the dough for use throughout the day. Othewise, the dough balls would overferment.

In your case, I would fit the dough to the pan and let the dough continue to rise and monitor its progress. You don't want the dough to rise to the point where it starts to collapse. If the dough approaches the top of the pan, then you might punch it down. From that point, you can let the dough rise again before using. The final height of the dough in the pan might be as shown in the photos in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. If you are not in a position to bake the pizza today, you might cover the pan and refrigerate the dough. Then, when you are ready to use the dough, let it temper at room temperature until it rises to the same point as shown in Reply 26.

FYI, based on the spacing of the poppy seeds shown in your photo, the dough more than tripled in volume from the time you made the dough to the time where the spacing of the poppy seeds went from 1" to 1.5".

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that I should not worry about how fast the dough has risen.  I donít think I have done any room temperature fermented doughs before with 0.60 % IDY, so I didnít know what to expect.  Also the higher hydration dough would ferment faster I would think.  At least I am glad you view this as good news.

I will fit the dough into the pan and will continue to monitor its progress.  Thanks for explaining what to do. 

I plan on making the pizza today.

Thanks also for telling me that the dough more than tripled in volume from the time I made the dough until a little over 3 hrs. passed.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2012, 11:49:14 AM »
I measured the poppy seeds spacing again at 11:30 AM, then removed the poppy seeds and lightly floured the top of the dough ball and also floured my table a little.  The dough was soft and bubbly and it easily stretched and also was easy to put in the steel pan.  The dough was placed into the 10Ē x 8Ē steel pan at 11:38 PM.  I will continue to monitor the dough in the steel pan.

I must have mistakenly dropped a couple of poppy seeds in the bottom of the plastic container, because I found a couple when I went to open the dough ball. 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2012, 11:49:49 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2012, 02:19:38 PM »
This is what the dough looks like in the steel pan after two hours of proofing at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  I has tempered some, but not a lot.  I measured how tall the dough has proofed and it has only proofed one inch.  After thinking about it, I would think when I did the balling of the dough (and then letting it ferment at room temperature) that might have been like one kneading if my thinking is right.  The time the dough has been in the pan I would guess would be like double kneading.  If my thinking isnít right, let me know.  I sure donít want to punch the dough down in the pan again since it isnít proofing very fast.  I would venture to guess that Buddyís has this all figured out right and I might need to do some experimenting to see what works for me when making a one day room temperature fermented dough to be baked the same day.  I think it might take a long while for my dough to ferment enough in my steel pan, unless I use my oven with the light on, or my Styrofoam proofing box.   

I also called Mandi Foods, Inc. http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/search.aspx this morning to see when my brick cheese would be shipped, since the weather isnít that bad in my area from Sandy.  I know the brick cheese was supposed to be shipped though FedEx and saw a FedEx truck go by on my street this morning, so I knew they are delivering to my area.  Kayla told me the FedEx location was closed in my area, but I told her I saw them making deliveries this morning.  Kayla then called my local FedEx location and called me back to say they are delivering in my area, if there arenít downed trees, or power lines.  Kayla said she would have my brick cheese shipped out today and I should receive it by tomorrow.  Trenton Bill had also purchased brick cheese from Mandi Foods, Inc. and said he got his brick cheese in one day of ordering it and it also was packaged very well.  Hopefully, I will received the brick cheese tomorrow and maybe be able to make another dough for Thursday to try the brick cheese.  Trenton Bill said he mixed the brick cheese with some white cheddar when he made his Detroit Buddyís style pie.  I also asked Kayla for the Nutrition Facts for their brick cheese.  Kayla said she would either send the Nutrition Facts to me with the brick cheese, or email the Nutrition Facts to me.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2012, 02:22:58 PM »
This is what the brick cheese looks like, that I ordered from Mandi Foods, Inc.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2012, 02:57:10 PM »
This is what the dough looks like in the steel pan after two hours of proofing at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  I has tempered some, but not a lot.  I measured how tall the dough has proofed and it has only proofed one inch.  After thinking about it, I would think when I did the balling of the dough (and then letting it ferment at room temperature) that might have been like one kneading if my thinking is right.  The time the dough has been in the pan I would guess would be like double kneading.  If my thinking isnít right, let me know.  I sure donít want to punch the dough down in the pan again since it isnít proofing very fast.  I would venture to guess that Buddyís has this all figured out right and I might need to do some experimenting to see what works for me when making a one day room temperature fermented dough to be baked the same day.  I think it might take a long while for my dough to ferment enough in my steel pan, unless I use my oven with the light on, or my Styrofoam proofing box.   

Norma,

It is possible that if you had generally stretched and flattened the dough ball into the pan at the outset, the rise in the pan would have been higher. Maybe that is the way to do it next time. Also, we really don't know what amount of dough Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan size, and we don't know the ambient temperature where the Buddy's dough rises.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2012, 03:09:31 PM »
Norma,

It is possible that if you had generally stretched and flattened the dough ball into the pan at the outset, the rise in the pan would have been higher. Maybe that is the way to do it next time. Also, we really don't know what amount of dough Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan size, and we don't know the ambient temperature where the Buddy's dough rises.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me if I had generally stretched and flattened the dough ball into the pan at the outset, the rise in the pan would have been higher.  I didnít think of trying that, but will the next time. 

I know we donít know how much dough Buddyís uses for the 8Ēx10Ē pan size and also donít know the ambient temperature of where Buddyís dough rises.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2012, 03:19:32 PM »
This what the dough looks like after 3 hrs. of proofing at the same ambient room temperature.  There is now a bubble on top of the dough at one spot.  I also used a ruler to measure the dough and it isnít even one inch in height.

I wonder how long I should let this dough proof.  I don't want to let the dough overferment.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2012, 03:21:38 PM »

I received a PDF document for the Eddieís brick cheese and am posting it if anyone is interested.  Kayla said in an email they did shop out the brick cheese I ordered this afternoon and it was shipped out via FedEx One Day.  Kayla also said in the email if I have any other questions about the Nutrition Facts to let her know.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2012, 04:05:02 PM »
I wonder how long I should let this dough proof.  I don't want to let the dough overferment.

Norma,

If the dough isn't rising much anymore, you might want to use the dough to make a pizza.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2012, 04:55:48 PM »
Norma,

If the dough isn't rising much anymore, you might want to use the dough to make a pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks, the dough wasn't rising a lot, so I did make the pizza.

Norma
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