Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 157268 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2012, 05:04:09 PM »
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2012, 06:06:40 PM »
Norma,

That is a good looking pizza--not bad for an emergency dough. Maybe next time, you can increase the amount of yeast and/or shoot for a higher finished dough temperature (by using warmer water). I'd like to see if you can get a greater rise in the pan.

While you were baking your pizza, I was posting over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496. There is some information there that I think you should find helpful in making future Buddy's clones.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2012, 07:19:01 PM »
Norma,

That is a good looking pizza--not bad for an emergency dough. Maybe next time, you can increase the amount of yeast and/or shoot for a higher finished dough temperature (by using warmer water). I'd like to see if you can get a greater rise in the pan.

While you were baking your pizza, I was posting over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496. There is some information there that I think you should find helpful in making future Buddy's clones.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for saying the last attempt was good for an emergency dough.  I never would have know that it was an emergency dough pizza, because it tasted so good.  I will increase the amount of yeast and shoot for a higher finished dough temperature for my next attempt.  What amount of yeast do you suggest?  I guess I could use regular hot tap water to try if you think the water should be that hot.  If I received the brick cheese tomorrow, I will make another attempt on Thursday.  I would like to get a greater rise in the pan.

Your information is very helpful at the Buddy’s thread.  You are always finding useful information and go to great lengths to find and investigate about clones. 

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2012, 07:43:01 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with 0.80% IDY and shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. You might also note the weights of the dough, sauce and cheese (that is, the weight of the unbaked pizza), and also the weight of the baked pizza. I'd like to get a better idea of the extent of the losses during the baking of a pan-style pizza such as the Buddy's style, especially given the long bake time.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2012, 08:17:21 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with 0.80% IDY and shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. You might also note the weights of the dough, sauce and cheese (that is, the weight of the unbaked pizza), and also the weight of the baked pizza. I'd like to get a better idea of the extent of the losses during the baking of a pan-style pizza such as the Buddy's style, especially given the long bake time.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting to go with 0.80% IDY and to shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F.  I will note the weights of the dough, sauce and cheese and also weigh the baked pizza.  I was going to weigh the baked pizzas in my last two attempts, but didn’t know you might want those weights.  I was also going to weight the amount of sauce I used, but didn’t in the last two attempts.  Do you have any idea of how much sauce I should be using in weights for a 10”x8” pan?  I will use November’s sauce since I have enough leftover. 

I also can do the same weights when I try another pizza at market.  That will probably be this coming Tuesday, but will probably be a cold fermented dough.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2012, 08:46:39 PM »
Do you have any idea of how much sauce I should be using in weights for a 10”x8” pan?  I will use November’s sauce since I have enough leftover.  

Norma,

In cases like this, I look for guidance from photos and I try to emulate what I see in the photos. In Buddy's case, the sauce is applied in dollops to form two or three strips. The strips need not be neatly formed. In fact, they can be quite ragged and splotchy. An example of what I have in mind is the photo at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. If you tare the pan and pizza before adding the sauce, you can get an idea as to the quantity of sauce used. The method of sauce application used at Buddy's simply does not lend itself to quantitative measurements. All we really know is that Buddy's uses non-chunky tomato products from Stanislaus plus a spice/herb blend of some sort. My guess, for what it is worth, is that the Buddy's sauce for the 8" x 10" pan pizza is only a few ounces.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:03:20 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2012, 09:31:07 PM »
Norma,

In cases like this, I look for guidance from photos and I try to emulate what I see in the photos. In Buddy's case, the sauce is applied in dollops to form two or three strips. The strips need not be neatly formed. In fact, they can be quite ragged and splotchy. An example of what I have in mind is the photo at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. If you tare the pan and pizza before adding the sauce, you can get an idea as to the quantity of sauce used. The method of sauce application used at Buddy's simply does not lend itself to quantitative measurements. All we really know is that Buddy's uses non-chunky tomato products from Stanislaus plus a spice/herb blend of some sort. My guess, for what it is worth, is that the Buddy's sauce for the 8" x 10" pan pizza is only a few ounces

Peter


Peter,

I have looked at photos of Buddy’s pizza in terms of sauce and the sauce does look different in some photos.  I think your idea is good to tare the pan and pizza before adding the sauce.  I didn’t think of that before.  Thanks for your guess of the sauce amount.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2012, 08:25:02 AM »


This is radio pod cast from the president (Robert Jacobs) of Buddy’s Pizza from Discover Good Foods, if anyone is interested in hearing it and didn’t listen to it before.

http://wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=28610&ID=2545060

Maybe in this article is a decent picture of Buddy’s pizza to see the sauce.

http://eatyourworld.com/destinations/united_states/michigan/detroit/what_to_eat/square_pizza

I looked though the pictures on Buddy’s website and these are some of them.  I find it interesting in Buddy’s photos, that in some of the pictures the pizzas don’t look that thick and in other pictures the pizzas do look thicker.  There are loads of pictures of Buddy‘s pizza at their website under photo Albums. 
https://picasaweb.google.com/114686826736602030019?authkey=Gv1sRgCOKh85bFvrWNzwE

In this bloggers article the caramelized edges on the Buddy’s pizza look a lot darker to me and the sauce does look thicker to me if my eyes aren’t fooling me.

http://zemanation.com/2010/12/detroit-day-1/

I guess pictures of Buddy’s pizzas are like all other pizzas.  They can look different.  I was just trying to get a better idea of what Buddy’s pizzas look like.

From the one old photo at Buddy’s years ago, it sure doesn’t look like that pizza in the pan was very high.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2012, 08:26:15 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2012, 08:27:47 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2012, 10:43:26 AM »

This is radio pod cast from the president (Robert Jacobs) of Buddy’s Pizza from Discover Good Foods, if anyone is interested in hearing it and didn’t listen to it before.

http://wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=28610&ID=2545060

Maybe in this article is a decent picture of Buddy’s pizza to see the sauce.

http://eatyourworld.com/destinations/united_states/michigan/detroit/what_to_eat/square_pizza

I looked though the pictures on Buddy’s website and these are some of them.  I find it interesting in Buddy’s photos, that in some of the pictures the pizzas don’t look that thick and in other pictures the pizzas do look thicker.

Norma,

I found the podcast to be quite interesting. There was not much added to what we already know about the Buddy's dough but the podcast did confirm that there is no oil or sugar in the dough and that the cheese is a brick cheese. Interestingly, in the Eat Our World article you referenced it is mentioned that Buddy's does not use mozzarella cheese but rather a “'secret blend' that includes Wisconsin brick cheese". That statement does not square with anything I have read or heard about the cheese used at Buddy's, including in the podcast (at 29:56). However, as the podcast mentions, Buddy's does have a cheese blend that they refer to as the Motor City blend. That blend includes Fontinella, Asiago, Parmesan and brick cheese. It is part of the Motor City Pizza Collection: http://www.buddyspizza.com/downloads/MotorCityPizzaCollection.pdf. I did not see anything in the Buddy's menu that suggests that that blend is an option for the regular and specialty pizzas on its menu.

I am not surprised that the Buddy's pizzas can have varying crust thicknesses. I believe that it is harder to control a dough that uses a lot of yeast and a fast fermentation at a room temperature that can vary throughout the year. Even with coolers I think it can be hard to control the dough and its expansion throughout the day. And maybe some workers do not punch down the dough the same way or to the same degree every time. With all of these variations, I would imagine they translate to finished crusts with varying thicknesses.

I am not also surprised that some of the Buddy's pizzas have more cheese "crustiness". My recollection is that a former Buddy's worker (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795) said that he preferred that his Buddy's pizzas be baked a few minutes longer than usual, which he did by putting the pizza back onto the conveyor line. I suspect that some guests at Buddy's ask for a more well-done pizza also. Remember, also, that your home oven, and even your deck oven at work, does not bake the same as a conveyor oven.

BTW, from the photo at Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg131753.html#msg131753, it looks like Buddy's uses two strips of sauce on its 4-square pizzas, just as you have been doing.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2012, 12:47:30 PM »
Norma,

I found the podcast to be quite interesting. There was not much added to what we already know about the Buddy's dough but the podcast did confirm that there is no oil or sugar in the dough and that the cheese is a brick cheese. Interestingly, in the Eat Our World article you referenced it is mentioned that Buddy's does not use mozzarella cheese but rather a “'secret blend' that includes Wisconsin brick cheese". That statement does not square with anything I have read or heard about the cheese used at Buddy's, including in the podcast (at 29:56). However, as the podcast mentions, Buddy's does have a cheese blend that they refer to as the Motor City blend. That blend includes Fontinella, Asiago, Parmesan and brick cheese. It is part of the Motor City Pizza Collection: http://www.buddyspizza.com/downloads/MotorCityPizzaCollection.pdf. I did not see anything in the Buddy's menu that suggests that that blend is an option for the regular and specialty pizzas on its menu.

I am not surprised that the Buddy's pizzas can have varying crust thicknesses. I believe that it is harder to control a dough that uses a lot of yeast and a fast fermentation at a room temperature that can vary throughout the year. Even with coolers I think it can be hard to control the dough and its expansion throughout the day. And maybe some workers do not punch down the dough the same way or to the same degree every time. With all of these variations, I would imagine they translate to finished crusts with varying thicknesses.

I am not also surprised that some of the Buddy's pizzas have more cheese "crustiness". My recollection is that a former Buddy's worker (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795) said that he preferred that his Buddy's pizzas be baked a few minutes longer than usual, which he did by putting the pizza back onto the conveyor line. I suspect that some guests at Buddy's ask for a more well-done pizza also. Remember, also, that your home oven, and even your deck oven at work, does not bake the same as a conveyor oven.

BTW, from the photo at Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg131753.html#msg131753, it looks like Buddy's uses two strips of sauce on its 4-square pizzas, just as you have been doing.

Peter


Peter,

I am glad that you found the podcast interesting.  I thought you might have heard it before.  I think there is another podcast with Robert Jacobs (made before the one I posted), but couldn’t find it on Discover Good Foods.  When I was searching on the web it did show up, but maybe I am not good at searching at Discover Good Foods.  I thought it was interesting to hear Robert Jacobs talk about Buddy’s even though we know most of what he talked about. 

I sure don’t know if the Motor City Cheese Blend could be added on Buddy’s regular pizzas, but this article tells more about the 5 new pizzas with the Motor City Cheese blend.  http://thehungrydudes.com/the-great-lakes-pizza-collection-at-buddys-pizza/  That cheese blend sure sounds good to me.  I have also noticed after looking at many pictures of Buddy’s pizzas that they look sunken in the middle.  I am not sure if the “sunken look” is from the way the edges are pinch up in the steel pan, or if the toppings contribute to the “sunken look”.  I did notice yesterday that my Buddy’s attempt did have that “sunken look” though, after it had cooled a little. 

In this article and video it tells how to make Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza

The 10 oz. part of the lean dough used for the Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza is close to what I used yesterday.  It also tells in Step 2 to place the dough ball in the square pan and press evenly until it covers the complete bottom of the pan completely, making sure that the sides are slightly pushed up around the perimeter and in Step 3: Spread shredded or ground cheese on the dough. Proof the cheesed pizza at room temperature for 1-2 hours, depending on preference.  That pizza sounds very good to me.

It is good to know that it doesn’t surprise you that Buddy’s pizzas can have varying crust thicknesses.  I can understand it is harder to control a dough that uses a lot of yeast and a fast fermentation at room temperature that can vary throughout the year.  I had my own problems with what I did yesterday and guess I didn’t fully understand what to do. 

I recall the Buddy’s worker at Reply 318 that posted that he preferred that his Buddy’s pizza be baked a few minutes longer.  I sure have no idea how conveyor ovens bake, but do know that my home oven and deck oven bake differently.  I even had a problem with the first attempt at a Buddy’s pizza in my home oven that the edges weren’t as dark as I would have liked. 
 
I found it interesting in the Eat Your World article that it said that the Detroit style pizza has doughy insides, besides what else that is said.  I wonder if the dough insides part is somewhat like a gumline. 

What: Detroit is one of many American cities claiming its own style of pizza: square and Sicilian-esque, cheesy and splashed with tomato sauce on top, with a thick, crispy exterior crust and doughy insides—a rather addicting contrast of textures.

At least I am applying the sauce right on my recent Buddy’s attempts at home. 

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2012, 12:51:05 PM »
I received the shipment of Eddie’s brick cheese from Mandi Cheese Shop in Pittsburgh, Pa. this morning.  The packaging was very good and the brick cheese was cold when it arrived. 

I didn’t taste the brick cheese yet, but am anxious to try it out to see what all the “buzz” is about using brick cheese on pizzas.  Since I never tasted brick cheese baked on a pizza before it will be interesting to see what it tastes like.  The loaf of brick cheese is almost as big as my 8”x10” steel pan. 

Trenton Bill told me he tried the Eddie’s brick cheese alone on his Detroit style pizza, but said the pizza tasted better with a cheddar cheese added.  Trenton Bill did say that the brick cheese did melt well with a very buttery taste though.   

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2012, 01:32:04 PM »
Norma,

The former Buddy's employee said that they used a half-pound of cheese for the 4-square pizza. Elsewhere, I had read that the amount of cheese for the 8-square pizza was 15 ounces. So, I would imagine that 7.5-8 ounces of the brick cheese is what you may want to use for your next 4-square pizza.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2012, 02:23:51 PM »
Norma,

The former Buddy's employee said that they used a half-pound of cheese for the 4-square pizza. Elsewhere, I had read that the amount of cheese for the 8-square pizza was 15 ounces. So, I would imagine that 7.5-8 ounces of the brick cheese is what you may want to use for your next 4-square pizza.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me to try 7.5-8 ounces of brick cheese on my Buddy's attempt tomorrow. I am also wondering since I only got about a 1” dough rise when proofing and so did Skee on his Buddy’s clones if I should up my TF a little for tomorrow.

The video and article I posted at Reply 91 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220597.html#msg220597  said that Buddy’s pizza is 2-3” in the finished crust. 

Buddy's Pizza uses what's called a lean dough to make its famous 2-3 inch thick Detroit-style pizza crust. No oil or sugar is added. They proof it, or let it sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours until it rises, before it hits the oven.

Do you have any idea of how big that dough ball is when looking at the video for the 8-square Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza?

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2012, 02:56:14 PM »
The video and article I posted at Reply 91 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220597.html#msg220597  said that Buddy’s pizza is 2-3” in the finished crust.  

Buddy's Pizza uses what's called a lean dough to make its famous 2-3 inch thick Detroit-style pizza crust. No oil or sugar is added. They proof it, or let it sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours until it rises, before it hits the oven.

Do you have any idea of how big that dough ball is when looking at the video for the 8-square Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza?

Norma,

I think that the 2"-3" statement may reflect sloppy thinking and/or sloppy writing or maybe an exaggeration, especially the 3" number. If you measure your steel pans, which I believe are the same as the ones that Buddy's uses or has used, I think that you will find that they are about 2 1/2" deep (on the vertical). If the 2"-3" number is to be believed, that would mean that the dough would fill most of the pans or even rise above the pans. I have not seen any photos that depict such an event, but if the dough does in fact rise above the pans, then it most likely have to be punched down, either before or at the time that the cheese, sauce and toppings are applied on top of the dough. Remember, also, that the pans are stacked across each other to let the dough balls proof in their pans. So, having overflowing dough in the pans as they are stacked one upon the other would not make sense. And we know that the finished crust is nowhere near 2"-3" in height.

I can't say at this time whether the thickness factor should be increased or not. I would rather wait to see if the increased amount of yeast and/or a higher finished dough temperature produce a greater rise in the pan. It's also possible that Buddy's uses a higher hydration than 70%. That could allow for a more billowy rise in the dough. But, as you know, I do not like to change multiple variables at one time.

I tried to guess the weight of the dough ball shown in the video you referenced but I could not tell what it was. If it was next to something with known dimensions, then I might have been able to do some analysis to estimate its size and weight. It's also possible that the dough ball in the video was just a prop, not an actual dough ball as used in a Buddy's store. I am hoping that the weights that you provide after your next Buddy's clone might offer some insights on the amount of dough used to make the 4-square pizza.

Peter

« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 08:08:09 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2012, 03:16:17 PM »
Peter,

You are right that the 3” statement isn’t right.  I just measured my steel pan and it can be seen what the height is on the vertical.  Mine isn’t even 2 ½”.  The finished crust couldn’t be 2” inch either.  I didn’t even think of measuring my steel pan on the vertical before.  I guess your logic wins over mine anytime.   :-D

I will just proceed with the same TF as PizzaHog used.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2012, 03:35:28 PM »
I sent an email to Buddy’s that I might be visiting sometime and asked a few questions.  I really didn’t think I would get any answers because of proprietary reasons, but at least I tried.  I also asked about the brick cheese and how much fat it had.

Peter’s amount for the cheese looks great though.

This is what Buddy’s said in their email to me.

Thank you for your interest in our company and we look forward to your visit. Our dough is proprietary so we do publish the ingredients or the quantity in a dough ball. We additionally, do not sell our dough balls. The amount of fat in Brick cheese, according to the nutritional label is 9g in a 28g portion. We put almost 8oz total on a 4-square pizza. Please note it is hand applied so the amount is approximate.

Happy Halloween!

Buddy’s responded really fast.

Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2012, 03:58:24 PM »
Norma,

If Buddy's is using the Foremost Farms brick cheese, which I referenced yesterday over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496, there is indeed 9 grams of total fat for 28 grams (one ounce) of the Foremost Farms brick cheese. (The Foremost Farms specs for their brick cheese is at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.) But if 8 ounces of such a brick cheese are used for a 4-square pizza, then the total fat would be 8 x 9 = 72 grams. However, if you look at the Buddy's Nutrition information at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3, four slices of a cheese pizza--that is, one 4-square cheese pizza--would have 4 x 14 grams of total fat, or 56 grams. That would be equivalent to 6.22 ounces of the brick cheese, not 8 ounces. I think you can now see why I choose not to rely on the Buddy's Nutrition information. Where there is one roach, there will be others.

I sent an email today to Buddy's thanking them for their fast responses to my questions. I received a nice reply shortly thereafter.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2012, 04:09:03 PM »
Norma,

If Buddy's is using the Foremost Farms brick cheese, which I referenced yesterday over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496, there is indeed 9 grams of total fat for 28 grams (one ounce) of the Foremost Farms brick cheese. (The Foremost Farms specs for their brick cheese is at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.) But if 8 ounces of such a brick cheese are used for a 4-square pizza, then the total fat would be 8 x 9 = 72 grams. However, if you look at the Buddy's Nutrition information at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3, four slices of a cheese pizza--that is, one 4-square cheese pizza--would have 4 x 14 grams of total fat, or 56 grams. That would be equivalent to 6.22 ounces of the brick cheese, not 8 ounces. I think you can now see why I choose not to rely on the Buddy's Nutrition information. Where there is one roach, there will be others.

I sent an email today to Buddy's thanking them for their fast responses to my questions. I received a nice reply shortly thereafter.

Peter


Peter,

Lol, leave it up to you to figure that kind of stuff out and you will.  :-D  Thanks for figuring out that where there is one roach there is another in not relying on Buddy’s Nutrition information. 

Do you have any other questions you want me to ask when I send a thank you to Buddy’s?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!