Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[Pete-zza]

Do you have any other questions you want me to ask when I send a thank you to Buddy’s?

Norma,

I have learned that you have to be careful how to ask questions and how many to ask so that you come across as a consumer rather than someone who is trying to reverse engineer the other person's products. What I would have liked to ask is the protein content of their flour. Maybe you can tell them that you have a mild gluten intolerance and can handle some flours but not others, and that it would help you to know the protein content of their flour.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I have learned that you have to be careful how to ask questions and how many to ask so that you come across as a consumer rather than someone who is trying to reverse engineer the other person's products. What I would have liked to ask is the protein content of their flour. Maybe you can tell them that you have a mild gluten intolerance and can handle some flours but not others, and that it would help you to know the protein content of their flour.

Peter

Peter,

I understand from all what you posted before that the inquires should be as a consumer and not someone that wants to try and reverse engineer their products.  I asked the questions by telling them I am an old lady and watches what she eats, etc, etc.  I won’t even get into all what I said. 

I will email and thank Buddy’s and also write what you posted. 

Norma

[norma427]

At CBS Detroit and video can be seen of the Taste Test of ‘Kid Rock’s Badass Detroiter Pizza’ from Buddy’s after the page loads all the way  The video is on top of the article. The video doesn’t show a lot.  What the video does show is close-ups of the pizza and how greasy the box was the pizza was placed in.  It had American Lager beer in the crust.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/06/24/taste-test-kid-rocks-badass-detroiter-pizza/

I guess ‘Kid Rock’s Badass Detroiter Pizza’ from Buddy’s was only available at the Six Mile Location, or maybe it was a Buddy’s test pizza.

I also had some questions about the Florine Mark pizza at Buddy’s, but it would be about the fat content of the cheese blend and if it really is a dieters dream.  I won’t ask those questions now.  I know I don’t understand enough about Nutrition Facts to compare the Florine Mark pizza with brick/fat-free cheese to the Specialty Gluten Free Cheese pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

The next dough was mixed using 0.80% IDY.  I used the hottest water my tap water would get, but it isn’t as hot as is it at market (my water heater isn’t turned up as high at home to save on electricity).  The final dough temperature was 86.3 degrees F.  The final dough weight when loosely balled was 278 grams.  The dough was finished mixing at 12:07 PM.  When I went to place the dough in the steel pan the dough needed a few minutes to relax before being able to be spread to the edges of the steel pan.  The final spreading of the dough was at 12:19 PM.  There are a few dark pieces on the dough from my steel pan.  The lid is on the steel pan now.  The ambient temperature of my kitchen is 71 degrees F.

I am not sure if I should take pictures of the dough in the pan at one hour intervals or not. 

I just wanted to note that I used the rest of my IDY that was in my freezer for the last dough.  Last Friday I had opened a new package of IDY at market and did bring some home and put it in my freezer.  The new IDY is what I used for this dough.  I don’t know if that will make any difference or not, but that is why I am posting about it.

Norma   

[norma427]

I took my facuet tap waters hottest temperature just to see what it was in a plastic cup that already had hot running water in it.  The temperature of that hot tap water was 116.1 degree F.  I waited for 2 hrs. after I had the dough stretched in the steel pan and then patted it down.  The dough did rise, but not as much as I thought it would.  The two pictures of the dough in the steel pan is before I patted the dough down with my fingers and after I patted/punched it down.  The dough wanted to get a few air bubbles under the dough, so I just lifted the dough up a little to let them out.   

I grated 8 ounces of the Eddie’s brick cheese with my hand grater.

Norma

[norma427]

I just received a reply to the email I had sent Buddy’s late yesterday afternoon.

This is what it said.

Norma,

We will be offering pizzas in our Michigan Great Lakes Collection (to include the Lake Huron – my personal favorite!) until the end of the year.

We offer gluten free pizzas and I have included a copy of our Gluten Free menu – see attachment. According to the label for our flour, in 100g of flour the protein content is 12.2g.

We look forward to your visit. Have a wonderful weekend,

The email has the persons name and position at Buddy’s if anyone wants that information.  Buddy’s sent me an pdf attachment, for their in store gluten free product menu, but I am not sure if that is what Buddy’s gave me the protein content for.  I am a little bit confused on that because I hadn’t asked about a gluten free product.

Let me know if I should ask for clarification, or if the protein content would be for the regular flour Buddy’s uses for their regular square pizza.   

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I just received a reply to the email I had sent Buddy’s late yesterday afternoon.

This is what it said.

Norma,

We will be offering pizzas in our Michigan Great Lakes Collection (to include the Lake Huron – my personal favorite!) until the end of the year.

We offer gluten free pizzas and I have included a copy of our Gluten Free menu – see attachment. According to the label for our flour, in 100g of flour the protein content is 12.2g.

We look forward to your visit. Have a wonderful weekend,

The email has the persons name and position at Buddy’s if anyone wants that information.  Buddy’s sent me an pdf attachment, for their in store gluten free product menu, but I am not sure if that is what Buddy’s gave me the protein content for.  I am a little bit confused on that because I hadn’t asked about a gluten free product.

Let me know if I should ask for clarification, or if the protein content would be for the regular flour Buddy’s uses for their regular square pizza.   

Norma

Norma,

After I suggested the protein question to ask, I wondered if Buddy's would divert your attention to their gluten-free pizzas. As you may recall from the podcast you referenced yesterday, Mr. Jacobs spoke at some length about trying to offer a really good gluten-free pizza. However, since the customer service rep at Buddy's mentioned "flour" with a protein content of 12.2% in the latest response, I think he or she meant flour, not a gluten-free mix. Out of curiosity, I took a look at the King Arthur gluten-free pizza crust mix at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1349880881159.pdf. As you can see, the product is called a "mix", not a "flour". Also, in the case of the KA pizza crust mix, the protein is only one gram for a sample size of 36 grams. For 100 grams, the protein content would be 2.78 grams. I also took a look at the Domino's gluten-free pizza Nutrition Facts at https://order.dominos.com/en/assets/derived/pdf/nutri-info-glutenfreecrust.pdf and noted a similar protein profile. Importantly, in the case of the Domino's Nutrition Facts, they apply to a baked pizza, not a mix.

To be on the safe side, I would ask for clarification. I would tell them that you are definitely open to trying their gluten-free pizza but that, in the past, you haven't been crazy over most gluten-free products and that you would like to try one of their regular pizzas. And, for that reason, you want to know if the protein content you were given was for the flour used in their regular pizzas.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

After I suggested the protein question to ask, I wondered if Buddy's would divert your attention to their gluten-free pizzas. As you may recall from the podcast you referenced yesterday, Mr. Jacobs spoke at some length about trying to offer a really good gluten-free pizza. However, since the customer service rep at Buddy's mentioned "flour" with a protein content of 12.2% in the latest response, I think he or she meant flour, not a gluten-free mix. Out of curiosity, I took a look at the King Arthur gluten-free pizza crust mix at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1349880881159.pdf. As you can see, the product is called a "mix", not a "flour". Also, in the case of the KA pizza crust mix, the protein is only one gram for a sample size of 36 grams. For 100 grams, the protein content would be 2.78 grams. I also took a look at the Domino's gluten-free pizza Nutrition Facts at https://order.dominos.com/en/assets/derived/pdf/nutri-info-glutenfreecrust.pdf and noted a similar protein profile. Importantly, in the case of the Domino's Nutrition Facts, they apply to a baked pizza, not a mix.

To be on the safe side, I would ask for clarification. I would tell them that you are definitely open to trying their gluten-free pizza but that, in the past, you haven't been crazy over most gluten-free products and that you would like to try one of their regular pizzas. And, for that reason, you want to know if the protein content you were given was for the flour used in their regular pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

I also wondered when I asked about how much protein Buddy’s flour had in it if they might try to divert me to a gluten-free pizza.  I remember from the podcast that Mr. Jacobs spoke about trying to offer really good gluten-free pizza. 

I also thought maybe Administrative/Operations Support lady gave me the correct protein for their flour for Buddy’s regular pizzas, but thought the protein sounded a little to low.  I guess Buddy’s did send my questions to the Administrative/Operations support woman instead of the person that answered me yesterday.

Thanks for the links to the King Arthur gluten-free pizza crust mix and Domino’s gluten-free pizza Nutrition Facts.  I see both of those numbers are really low in protein and much lower than what Buddy’s gave me. 

I will ask for clarification.  Thanks for writing how I should ask for the clarification.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I took my faucet tap waters hottest temperature just to see what it was in a plastic cup that already had hot running water in it.  The temperature of that hot tap water was 116.1 degree F.  I waited for 2 hrs. after I had the dough stretched in the steel pan and then patted it down.  The dough did rise, but not as much as I thought it would.  The two pictures of the dough in the steel pan is before I patted the dough down with my fingers and after I patted/punched it down.  The dough wanted to get a few air bubbles under the dough, so I just lifted the dough up a little to let them out.   

Norma,

We don't know where Buddy's proofs its dough balls so there is no way of knowing how high in the pans the flattened dough balls rise. If the dough is proofed near the ovens, then they might rise more, as they also might if we are talking about proofing the dough balls in the dead middle of summer. However, since I have not seen any photos of the Buddy's dough rising 2" or more in the pans, call me skeptical. Remember, also, that we are not talking about all that much dough. I have been studying what member dicepackage reported at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715, and it seems to me that there isn't all that much dough in a Buddy's 4-square pizza. I also recall that Jet's uses the same small pan as Buddy's. I have a pretty good idea as to the amount of dough that Jet's uses for the small square pizza, but I haven't yet had a chance yet to revisit the Jet's thread to get a better idea as to the weight losses during the baking of one of their small square pizzas. PizzaHog was nice enough to give some weight data at the Jet's thread. I just haven't had a chance to study it. I was also hoping to have your weight data for comparison purposes.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

We don't know where Buddy's proofs its dough balls so there is no way of knowing how high in the pans the flattened dough balls rise. If the dough is proofed near the ovens, then they might rise more, as they also might if we are talking about proofing the dough balls in the dead middle of summer. However, since I have not seen any photos of the Buddy's dough rising 2" or more in the pans, call me skeptical. Remember, also, that we are not talking about all that much dough. I have been studying what member dicepackage reported at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715, and it seems to me that there isn't all that much dough in a Buddy's 4-square pizza. I also recall that Jet's uses the same small pan as Buddy's. I have a pretty good idea as to the amount of dough that Jet's uses for the small square pizza, but I haven't yet had a chance yet to revisit the Jet's thread to get a better idea as to the weight losses during the baking of one of their small square pizzas. PizzaHog was nice enough to give some weight data at the Jet's thread. I just haven't had a chance to study it. I was also hoping to have your weight data for comparison purposes.

Peter

Peter,

I know we don’t know where Buddy’s proofs its dough balls in the pans, or what it looks like, so we have no idea of how high the dough proofs.  I already know from measuring my pan yesterday if Buddy’s uses the same steel pans that I am using the dough wouldn’t rise 2”, or more in the pans.  

I didn’t think to look at dicpackage’s report at Reply 127.  I see that probably isn’t a lot of dough.  It is good you have a pretty good idea as to the amount of dough that Jet’s uses for the small square pizza.  Will be interesting to know what ideas you get from the Jet’s weighs after baking.  I know PizzaHog was nice enough to give you some weight data in the Jet’s thread.  

If you want me to after the bake today, I can always try another attempt at a Buddy’s pizza on Saturday if you want more data points after baking.  I don’t mind at all making these 4-square pizzas.  

On another note, this is how the dough looks in the steel pan in a little over 3 hrs.  I am not sure how long I should wait until I bake it since you posted you really don’t know what Buddy’s dough looks like in the steel pan when it is proofed.

I did ask for clarification about the protein of their regular flour in an email to Buddy‘s.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I don't see any need for you to alter your plans. We can assess the results of your Buddy's clone pizzas as they evolve. In the meantime, I have been researching bromated flours with a protein content of 12.2%. I have one such flour in mind but I'd like to hear how Buddy's responds before commenting further.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I just received this email from Buddy’s.   This is what it said.

Norma,

You are most welcome! The protein information provided was for the flour included in our regular pizza crust.

Please note we have received many favorable comments about our Gluten Free pizza. People with Celiac disease have stated it’s the best gluten free pizza they have ever had.

We hope you give it a try when in town.

Safe Travel to Michigan!!

Norma

[Pete-zza]

The protein information provided was for the flour included in our regular pizza crust.

Norma,

That is very good news. Good news indeed.

Now we know that we are looking for a bromated flour with a protein content of 12.2%. Most flours with such a protein content tend to be winter wheat flours and not bromated. A good example is the Better for Bread/Harvest King flour. And winter flours are often supplemented with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as an alternative to potassium bromate. However, there are a few spring wheat flours or blends of flours that are bromated and have a protein content of around 12.2%. But they are not the names that we readily recognize. But one such flour that has a recognizable name and seems to meet the 12.2% protein content and is also bromated is the Occident flour from ConAgra (http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144033/conagra-occident-flour-bleached-50lb). That flour is described at page 5 of the ConAgra pdf brochure at http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf. You will see that the exact protein number recited is 12.2%. It is also the number given in the Nutrition Facts for the Occident flour at the Dutch Valley website. So, if you have any Occident flour left, that would be the one you perhaps should try for a future Buddy's clone. An alternative might be the Full Strength flour softened by some all-purpose flour to get a final protein content of 12.2%.

If I recall correctly, I believe ConAgra has a flour mill near where Jon (Jackitup) lives in Minnesota and from whom he has purchased the Occident flour. Minnesota is only a couple of states away from Michigan.

As you may also recall, the Occident flour is also one that Dave (dmcavanagh) really likes and frequently recommends.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

At one time it was reported that Buddy's was using a thick "Coarse Grind Pepperoni" sold under the brand name Margherita and with the product code #38616-31329. That is a product sold by Armour Eckrich, whose website for the pepperoni and other pizza toppings is http://johnmorrellfoodgroup.com/foodservice-page/products-page--2/pizza-toppings. If you download the list of Pizza Toppings products via the link provided for that purpose, you will find the abovementioned Margherita pepperoni product.

Since you are a professional, if you can use the use the Contact Us feature, it would help if you could get the Nutrition Facts for that product. That might help us analyze the data that dicepackage gave us. It will not be necessary that you tell them that you are an "old lady" with concerns over the fat content of products or that you have a slight gluten intolerance .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

That is very good news. Good news indeed.

Now we know that we are looking for a bromated flour with a protein content of 12.2%. Most flours with such a protein content tend to be winter wheat flours and not bromated. A good example is the Better for Bread/Harvest King flour. And winter flours are often supplemented with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as an alternative to potassium bromate. However, there are a few spring wheat flours or blends of flours that are bromated and have a protein content of around 12.2%. But they are not the names that we readily recognize. But one such flour that has a recognizable name and seems to meet the 12.2% protein content and is also bromated is the Occident flour from ConAgra (http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144033/conagra-occident-flour-bleached-50lb). That flour is described at page 5 of the ConAgra pdf brochure at http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf. You will see that the exact protein number recited is 12.2%. It is also the number given in the Nutrition Facts for the Occident flour at the Dutch Valley website. So, if you have any Occident flour left, that would be the one you perhaps should try for a future Buddy's clone. An alternative might be the Full Strength flour soften by some all-purpose flour to get a final protein content of 12.2%.

If I recall correctly, I believe ConAgra has a flour mill near where Jon (Jackitup) lives in Minnesota and from whom he has purchased the Occident flour. Minnesota is only a couple of states away from Michigan.

As you may also recall, the Occident flour is also one that Dave (dmcavanagh) really likes and frequently recommends.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad the protein content of Buddy’s flour for their regular pizza is good news.  I really didn’t think I would get anywhere with my questioning, but with your help and Buddy’s help, it got us there.

That is really good news that the Occident flour seems to meet the 12.2% protein content.  I forgot what protein content the Occident flour was.  That is a flour that I have readily available at my local Country Store and also though my supplier.  I can use the Occident flour for my future Buddy’s clone attempts.  I do recall the Occident flour is also the flour that Dave really likes and frequently recommends.  

Norma,

At one time it was reported that Buddy's was using a thick "Coarse Grind Pepperoni" sold under the brand name Margherita and with the product code #38616-31329. That is a product sold by Armour Eckrich, whose website for the pepperoni and other pizza toppings is http://johnmorrellfoodgroup.com/foodservice-page/products-page--2/pizza-toppings. If you download the list of Pizza Toppings products via the link provided for that purpose, you will find the abovementioned Margherita pepperoni product.

Since you are a professional, if you can use the use the Contact Us feature, it would help if you could get the Nutrition Facts for that product. That might help us analyze the data that dicepackage gave us. It will not be necessary that you tell them that you are an "old lady with concerns over the fat content of products or that you have a slight gluten intolerance .

Peter

I will try to get the Nutrition Facts for the “Coarse Grind Pepperoni” sold under the brand name Margherita.  Thank for the website.  I know it won’t be necessary that I tell them that I am an “old lady" with concern over the fat content of products, or that I have a slight gluten intolerance.  That slight gluten intolerance sure helped though.   I would have never thought of that for questioning Buddy’s.

Norma

[norma427]

The pizza was baked 4:45 hrs. after the dough was stretched in the steel pan.   I watered down November’s sauce a little and used 3.8 ounces of sauce on this attempt.  The pizza after it was right out of the oven weighed 1 lb. 4.1 ounces, or 568 grams.  It can been seen what scraps were leftover in the steel pan.  I tried to weigh the scraps and they weighed 0.80 gram, but I will get more scraps out of the pan when I wipe it with paper towels.  The thickness of the pizza can kind of be seen by the ruler.

This attempt was baked right about 500 degrees F on the bottom rack in my home oven.  It took exactly 15 minutes to baked the pizza. 

In my opinion the pizza was very tasty.  I ate two slices.  The caramelized edges were really good.  I had a bottle of Hop Devil with the two slices.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma