Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 166347 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #140 on: November 03, 2012, 07:52:36 PM »
Norma,

You might check out this radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's: http://www.pizzaradio.com/podcasts/ask042908.mp3. The impression I got from the interview is that the specialty pizzas with the multi-cheese blends are thinner than the regular Buddy's square pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the link to the radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's!  I will listen to it.

Norma

« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 07:45:44 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #141 on: November 03, 2012, 07:58:02 PM »
I took the temperature in the oven (where the dough was tempering in the steel pan) and it was 95.8 degrees F (that was with the oven light on).  I was trying to get the dough to proof  in 2 hrs. (with the punch down) and it did seem to work well.  The dough was nice and bubbly both times and smelled really good.

I used 8 ounces of the Eddieís brick cheese again and 4.7 ounces of Novemberís sauce combined with market sauce. There would have been enough of Novemberís sauce leftover, but I accidently hit the container with the sauce in the fridge and the sauce container flipped and then the lid came off.  I had a mess in my fridge and even some of the sauce hit my shoes.  That is why I had to add some of the market sauce. The oven was set right under 500 degrees F and the pizza was baked on the bottom rack.  The pizza took about 14 minutes to bake.  I donít know where my brain was, but it took me 3 1/2 minutes to weigh the baked pizza.  It weighed 1 lb. 4.5 oz., or when I changed the scale to grams it weighed 581 grams.  There was a little cheese that dripped in the steel pan that wasnít weighed.  I only used the screen to weigh the pie this time and I made sure I did tare that out and also the mixing bowl it was sitting on.  

I donít know why the rim crust got higher this time.  I donít know if it was from the flour, or how I tempered the dough in the oven, or something else, but it can be seen on the ruler the side crust did get higher.  

The Buddyís clone attempt came out of the oven at 6:55 PM.

The crumb on this pizza was the best yet, in that it was nice and airy and very tender to eat.  I sure donít know why that was either.

I am happier in this Buddyís attempt then other ones, but sure donít know what I did that was so different.  Since this was such a very fast pizza from beginning to end, I wouldnít have thought the taste would be that good.  I am glad the bromated Occident flour was calling for me to try it today.  Now if I can only repeat what I did.  

I did really do something stupid in trying to document this process today though.  When I put my memory stick in the computer (from the first few pictures) I forgot to take it out and the pictures of the dough tempering are just on my camera and not on my memory stick.  When I went to take the picture of the cheese and sauce on the pizza, before the bake, that is when my camera said no memory left.  That is when I realized that the memory stick was still in my computer from the other pictures I took of how the dough looked before tempering more.  I have no idea where the cord is for my camera and donít think it even works anymore.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 08:08:56 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #142 on: November 03, 2012, 07:59:39 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #143 on: November 03, 2012, 08:00:53 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #144 on: November 03, 2012, 08:02:00 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #145 on: November 03, 2012, 08:05:00 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #146 on: November 03, 2012, 08:05:41 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #147 on: November 03, 2012, 09:14:36 PM »
Peter,

I did enjoyed the radio interview with Wes Pikula very much that you posted at Reply 139 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221274.html#msg221274   Did you know that Buddyís changed over to trans fat free oil?  I wonder what kind of oil that is.  I listened over and over, but couldnít hear what Wes said when he stated how much Buddyís pays for a 50 lb. bag of flour.  I just had my hearing checked a few months ago and the ear/nose/throat specialist said my was hearing was like a teenager, so I donít know why I could not catch that.  Did you catch what he said about the flour price?  

I also heard Wes say that the specialty pizzas are thinner and they also apply less cheese on them, but the cheese blends do give a better taste on the pizzas.  I guess that solves the mystery about why the different specialty pizzas look thinner.  At least that is one thing I donít have to wonder about.

Norma

Edit:  Never mind the flour price question, I listened some more without backround noises, and I hear Wes say they went from 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag up to something in the low thirties.  8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag of flour sure was cheap.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 11:26:31 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #148 on: November 04, 2012, 08:53:45 AM »
I donít know why the rim crust got higher this time.  I donít know if it was from the flour, or how I tempered the dough in the oven, or something else, but it can be seen on the ruler the side crust did get higher.  

Norma,

It looks like you are making good progress.

Since you changed two major variables at one time, it is hard to say which one was primarily responsible for the results you achieved. It could have been the flour because of its lower protein content and tendency to produce a softer crust, or it might have been the use of your oven to proof the dough and cause it to rise faster, or it might have been a combination of both changes. You would have to drop one of the variables and repeat the experiment to see if that provides the answer. Even then, you might have to do further testing to try to replicate the results to confirm them.

I am glad that you were able to get the desired results using about 70% hydration. When I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I saw that a hydration of about 75% was getting good results among the members. It could well be that the combination of using the lower protein bromated Occident flour and the oven to proof the dough at a higher temperature produced the more open and airy dough without having to resort to a higher hydration. It might be a good idea at some point to do further testing along the lines mentioned above to see how the dough formulation and processing methods might work at market where you may not have something equivalent to your home oven to proof the dough. At some point, you might also want to try using a lower bake temperature, maybe along the lines that Buddy's pizza uses, to see if you can replicate their pizzas using the lower bake temperature.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #149 on: November 04, 2012, 09:29:33 AM »
I did enjoyed the radio interview with Wes Pikula very much that you posted at Reply 139 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221274.html#msg221274   Did you know that Buddyís changed over to trans fat free oil?  I wonder what kind of oil that is.  I listened over and over, but couldnít hear what Wes said when he stated how much Buddyís pays for a 50 lb. bag of flour.  I just had my hearing checked a few months ago and the ear/nose/throat specialist said my was hearing was like a teenager, so I donít know why I could not catch that.  Did you catch what he said about the flour price?  
Edit:  Never mind the flour price question, I listened some more without backround noises, and I hear Wes say they went from 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag up to something in the low thirties.  8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag of flour sure was cheap.

Norma,

FYI, I found the radio interview with Wes Pikula by conducting a Google search using his name. Using a person's name for search purposes often turns up good articles or other material where the person is quoted. Those materials frequently describe the company the person works for and its products and methods. Vendors of equipment and other items used by the company especially like to promote their products through articles like that.

The trans fat issue mentioned in the video is with respect to hydrogenated solid fats that Buddy's apparently was using to fry things before they saw the writing on the wall that trans fats were going to be banned in some places. Buddy's did not use those solid fats in relation to their pizzas. Canola oil is mentioned in the video. It is not a solid fat and has no trans fats. I was told some time ago that the Auburn Hills Buddy's location I called was using soybean oil in some form for oiling their square pans (see Reply 137 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136786/topicseen.html#msg136786). Another member (Grilled Pizza) reported at Reply 251 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg104178/topicseen.html#msg104178 that the Warren Buddy's location was using canola oil. So, maybe the different Buddy's locations have the option of using different oils. I believe that the old Crisco is an example of a solid fat that had trans fats. That product has been reformulated to significantly reduce or eliminate the trans fats. Some of our members have reported that they use Crisco or an equivalent vegetable shortening to grease their pans but Buddy's does not do so.

I heard the same price that you heard for the flour that Wes Pikula mentioned in the video. Apparently, Buddy's has enough volume to get the flour by the truckload.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #150 on: November 04, 2012, 09:47:05 AM »
Norma,

It looks like you are making good progress.

Since you changed two major variables at one time, it is hard to say which one was primarily responsible for the results you achieved. It could have been the flour because of its lower protein content and tendency to produce a softer crust, or it might have been the use of your oven to proof the dough and cause it to rise faster, or it might have been a combination of both changes. You would have to drop one of the variables and repeat the experiment to see if that provides the answer. Even then, you might have to do further testing to try to replicate the results to confirm them.

I am glad that you were able to get the desired results using about 70% hydration. When I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I saw that a hydration of about 75% was getting good results among the members. It could well be that the combination of using the lower protein bromated Occident flour and the oven to proof the dough at a higher temperature produced the more open and airy dough without having to resort to a higher hydration. It might be a good idea at some point to do further testing along the lines mentioned above to see how the dough formulation and processing methods might work at market where you may not have something equivalent to your home oven to proof the dough. At some point, you might also want to try using a lower bake temperature, maybe along the lines that Buddy's pizza uses, to see if you can replicate their pizzas using the lower bake temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I know I changed 3 variables this time, with the one variable that you didnít mention of adding the salt to the warm water.  I guess that wouldnít change things too much though. 

If I had to guess (and I know you donít like guesses for variables) it probably was a combination of the lower protein flour (making a stickier dough) and the oven to proof the dough.  The dough was sticker yesterday when using the bromated Occident flour.

I saw on the Buddyís thread that a hydration of about 75% gave good results.  I am not ready yet to go up to that high of hydration. 

I plan to make at least two dough balls tomorrow for testing at market on Tuesday.  I can use Hatco unit for tempering the dough in the pans to see what happens with that.  I have a stainless steel rack (with 3 shelves) in my shed for the Hatco unit that I can stack steel pans on.  I also ordered some of the bigger steel pans yesterday, so I can try out the Buddyís clone 8 square pizzas in the future.  I donít know if it was reported before here on the forum, but the shipping did get cheaper when ordering more pans. 

Since my brother is coming to visit this week, later on this week or maybe over next weekend, I might try a Buddyís clone pizza in my momís gas oven at a lower temperature to see what happens.  I also want to see what my brother thinks of the Buddyís clone pizzas.  My mom really likes them.  Maybe I will receive the bigger steel pans by that time. 

BTW, no call back about a Buddyís partially frozen parbaked pizza either.  I might call later about that.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #151 on: November 04, 2012, 10:03:11 AM »
Norma,

FYI, I found the radio interview with Wes Pikula by conducting a Google search using his name. Using a person's name for search purposes often turns up good articles or other material where the person is quoted. Those materials frequently describe the company the person works for and its products and methods. Vendors of equipment and other items used by the company especially like to promote their products through articles like that.

The trans fat issue mentioned in the video is with respect to hydrogenated solid fats that Buddy's apparently was using to fry things before they saw the writing on the wall that trans fats were going to be banned in some places. Buddy's did not use those solid fats in relation to their pizzas. Canola oil is mentioned in the video. It is not a solid fat and has no trans fats. I was told some time ago that the Auburn Hills Buddy's location I called was using soybean oil in some form for oiling their square pans (see Reply 137 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136786/topicseen.html#msg136786). Another member (Grilled Pizza) reported at Reply 251 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg104178/topicseen.html#msg104178 that the Warren Buddy's location was using canola oil. So, maybe the different Buddy's locations have the option of using different oils. I believe that the old Crisco is an example of a solid fat that had trans fats. That product has been reformulated to significantly reduce or eliminate the trans fats. Some of our members have reported that they use Crisco or an equivalent vegetable shortening to grease their pans but Buddy's does not do so.

I heard the same price that you heard for the flour that Wes Pikula mentioned in the video. Apparently, Buddy's has enough volume to get the flour by the truckload.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me how you found the radio interview with Wes Pikula.  I also used Wes Pikulaís name in a Google search but didnít find that radio interview.  I did note that Wes said at one article that the seasoning of the steel pans did make a better tasting crust though in one article I found.

The blue steels are "just like a great black skillet pan," says Wes Pikula, Buddy's vice president of operations. After they're seasoned, "they have a way of capturing the flavors in the metal" in a way that other pans he has tried do not.

I have been using corn oil to oil the steel pans.  Do you think I should try Canola oil?

I also forgot to mention that the Eddie's brick cheese tasted really good on the Buddy's attempt yesterday.  Maybe I am just getting too opinionated from having so much cheddar on Greek style pizza and the boardwalk pizzas.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #152 on: November 04, 2012, 10:06:41 AM »
The dough was sticker yesterday when using the bromated Occident flour.

Norma,

I would imagine that the Occident flour has a lower rated absorption than your Kyrol flour. Did you have any problems handling the dough? For example, if you worked in a Buddy's store do you think you could work with the Occident flour dough balls at around 70% hydration? Of course, we know that Buddy's uses mixers in its stores and the dough balls might be more robust and drier than in a home setting, but the relatively high hydration would still be there.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #153 on: November 04, 2012, 10:42:12 AM »
Norma,

I would imagine that the Occident flour has a lower rated absorption than your Kyrol flour. Did you have any problems handling the dough? For example, if you worked in a Buddy's store do you think you could work with the Occident flour dough balls at around 70% hydration? Of course, we know that Buddy's uses mixers in its stores and the dough balls might be more robust and drier than in a home setting, but the relatively high hydration would still be there.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít have a lot of problems handling the dough yesterday, but then I used my spatula in mixing the dough more and also did a few stretch and folds.  The dough was still sticky though and did stick to my fingers some.  I had to work with the dough quickly to get it to ball, before it became a glob and stuck more to my fingers.  As I posted before, I havenít been able to use my dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer because the dough amount is too small.  I want to try and use the dough hook, (after the flat beater tomorrow) to see if that makes any difference since I will be making more dough. 

I guess if Buddyís is using a higher hydration their commercial mixers would mix the dough much better.  I know my Hobart mixes higher hydration doughs better and my dough balls from market are more robust than my home dough balls.  I would have to test the formulation I am using at market, before I would know how that works.  If I start selling Buddyís clone pizzas, I will be able to test the dough out at market in the Hobart mixer.  I also guess there are only a few employees that know what goes into Buddyís dough and how to mix, ball and scale.  I wouldnít think most employees would know that information.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #154 on: November 04, 2012, 11:08:14 AM »
I didnít have a lot of problems handling the dough yesterday, but then I used my spatula in mixing the dough more and also did a few stretch and folds.

Norma,

I wonder if the dough makers at Buddy's use a fairly high hydration and do some stretch/slap and folds, and that the stretch/slap and folds along with the final fitting of the dough into the pans constitutes "double kneading". As Marlon (bakeshack) mentioned recently at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219743.html#msg219743 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219822.html#msg219822, being able to trap air in the dough before it ferments is beneficial to the final product. Since the Buddy's clone doughs that you have been making are essentially emergency doughs, and with little time for biochemical gluten development, I would imagine that it would be a good idea to work the dough long enough to get good gluten development so as to better capture and retain the gases of fermentation.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have a good flour (e.g., the bromated Occidental flour), use stretch/slap and folds, etc. ("double kneading"), adequately develop the gluten, and subject the dough to sufficient heat to materially lift the dough, you should get very good results in a Buddy's style pizza.

BTW, I wasn't quite sure from the angles of the photos you posted as to the final height of the dough and finished crust. Can you tell me what the measurements were? In particular, I was wondering whether the risen dough exceeded 2"-3" in the pan.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #155 on: November 04, 2012, 12:39:10 PM »
Norma,

I wonder if the dough makers at Buddy's use a fairly high hydration and do some stretch/slap and folds, and that the stretch/slap and folds along with the final fitting of the dough into the pans constitutes "double kneading". As Marlon (bakeshack) mentioned recently at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219743.html#msg219743 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219822.html#msg219822, being able to trap air in the dough before it ferments is beneficial to the final product. Since the Buddy's clone doughs that you have been making are essentially emergency doughs, and with little time for biochemical gluten development, I would imagine that it would be a good idea to work the dough long enough to get good gluten development so as to better capture and retain the gases of fermentation.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have a good flour (e.g., the bromated Occidental flour), use stretch/slap and folds, etc. ("double kneading"), adequately develop the gluten, and subject the dough to sufficient heat to materially lift the dough, you should get very good results in a Buddy's style pizza.

BTW, I wasn't quite sure from the angles of the photos you posted as to the final height of the dough and finished crust. Can you tell me what the measurements were? In particular, I was wondering whether the risen dough exceeded 2"-3" in the pan.

Peter

Peter,

I also wonder if the dough makers at Buddyís use a fairly high hydration and do use some stretch/slap and folds, with the final fitting included and if that is what constitutes ďdouble kneadingĒ.  I might imagine them letting the dough sit on the counter for a little, before dividing, scaling and balling.  I donít know how we are going to be able to find that information though.  I would imagine with all the dough balls Buddyís makes they would want the process as simple as possible.

The links to what Marlon posted are good examples of  how air can be trapped in the dough before it ferments.  I know I have tried some of those methods before when trying high hydration doughs. 

I know that what I have been making in my last Buddyís clone attempts have been essentially emergency doughs and your idea of if the dough is worked enough to get good gluten development that is a good idea to capture the gases of fermentation.  The flavor of my crusts have seemed to me to be very good tasting, even though what I have been trying have been like an emergency dough.  That still puzzles me.

I wish I had the pictures of the final height of the dough after proofing, but those are still on my camera (with a 5 picture limit on storage without a memory stick).  I didnít use a ruler to measure that, but the dough was full of bubbles and did rise decently.  This is a picture with a measuring tape of a leftover slice for my mom, but I think the crust shrank since it has been in the fridge.  That measurement isnít even 1 ĹĒ.  I will try to take better measurements in the future, but that crust looked higher to me, just by looking at it with the naked eye.

Do you have any suggestions on what to try for a one day cold ferment Buddyís clone for Tuesday, or should I try to keep everything the same, except for the tempering of the dough in the Hatco unit?  I probably will make 3 dough balls.

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #156 on: November 04, 2012, 01:36:34 PM »
Norma,

The flavor of my crusts have seemed to me to be very good tasting, even though what I have been trying have been like an emergency dough.  That still puzzles me.

I can see several places where flavor is imparted to the finished crust and also to the slices as a whole. First, with 0.80% IDY, and only a brief fermentation time, you should taste some of the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, the corn oil in the pan also imparts flavor to the finished crust as it bakes into the crust and forms a crispy bottom. Third, the caramelization and crisping up of the brick cheese at the edges of the pan provides both flavor and texture. Finally, from what I have read about brick cheese, it is often described as being 'buttery". Add up all of these flavor components and I can see how the pizza would be quite tasty. To this, I would add that if you ever decide to use ADY instead of IDY, you would get even more yeast flavor because of the larger percent of dead yeast cells for the ADY.

I forgot to mention it earlier but if you want to come closer to what Buddy's uses in its pans in terms of oil, you might try soybean oil or canola oil. Also, at some point, you might consider using white cheddar cheese or a cheddar cheese blend. Even though you liked the flavor of the brick cheese better the last time, I think you were perhaps conditioned to the flavors and textures of the cheddar cheeses and blends that you have used in making the many Greek pizzas and the Mack's and Papa Gino's clone pizzas. If you had started out with the brick cheese and used it over a long period of time, you might have been conditioned to preferring that cheese over the cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends. When I reread the Buddy's thread, I saw that there was a great appeal among the members of cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends.
 
Do you have any suggestions on what to try for a one day cold ferment Buddyís clone for Tuesday, or should I try to keep everything the same, except for the tempering of the dough in the Hatco unit?  I probably will make 3 dough balls.

I think I would try to replicate at work that which you did in your home oven with the last Buddy's clone pizza. At some later date, you can always try other formulations and methods. One thing you might try is to use the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan. I'd like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan. You would measure the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough is done rising and you use it to make a pizza. As before, you would note the finished dough temperature and the time that the dough goes into the pan and the time when you decide to make the pizza. If the poppy seed trick works, then we can use the information to see if we can come up with a cold ferment version of the Buddy's clone dough.

For your additional information, I calculated the losses during your baking of the last pizza. The unbaked pizza weight was 9.67 ounces of dough + 8 ounces of brick cheese + 4.7 ounces of pizza cheese = 22.37 ounces. The weight of the pizza after baking was 20.49 ounces (581 grams), or a loss of 1.88 ounces. That translates to an 8.4% loss.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #157 on: November 04, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »
Norma,

I can see several places where flavor is imparted to the finished crust and also to the slices as a whole. First, with 0.80% IDY, and only a brief fermentation time, you should taste some of the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, the corn oil in the pan also imparts flavor to the finished crust as it bakes into the crust and forms a crispy bottom. Third, the caramelization and crisping up of the brick cheese at the edges of the pan provides both flavor and texture. Finally, from what I have read about brick cheese, it is often described as being 'buttery". Add up all of these flavor components and I can see how the pizza would be quite tasty. To this, I would add that if you ever decide to use ADY instead of IDY, you would get even more yeast flavor because of the larger percent of dead yeast cells for the ADY.

I forgot to mention it earlier but if you want to come closer to what Buddy's uses in its pans in terms of oil, you might try soybean oil or canola oil. Also, at some point, you might consider using white cheddar cheese or a cheddar cheese blend. Even though you liked the flavor of the brick cheese better the last time, I think you were perhaps conditioned to the flavors and textures of the cheddar cheeses and blends that you have used in making the many Greek pizzas and the Mack's and Papa Gino's clone pizzas. If you had started out with the brick cheese and used it over a long period of time, you might have been conditioned to preferring that cheese over the cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends. When I reread the Buddy's thread, I saw that there was a great appeal among the members of cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends.
 
I think I would try to replicate at work that which you did in your home oven with the last Buddy's clone pizza. At some later date, you can always try other formulations and methods. One thing you might try is to use the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan. I'd like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan. You would measure the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough is done rising and you use it to make a pizza. As before, you would note the finished dough temperature and the time that the dough goes into the pan and the time when you decide to make the pizza. If the poppy seed trick works, then we can use the information to see if we can come up with a cold ferment version of the Buddy's clone dough.

For your additional information, I calculated the losses during your baking of the last pizza. The unbaked pizza weight was 9.67 ounces of dough + 8 ounces of brick cheese + 4.7 ounces of pizza cheese = 22.37 ounces. The weight of the pizza after baking was 20.49 ounces (581 grams), or a loss of 1.88 ounces. That translates to an 8.4% loss.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for pointing to the several places where the flavor is imparted in the whole crust and also to the slices as a whole in the attempted almost emergency doughs I have tried.  I didnít think about the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheat flavor of the flour.  I did know from the Greek pizzas I have made and also the Sicilian pizzas that the corn oil in the pan imparts a certain flavor in the crust.  I agree that the caramelization at the edges provides great flavor and texture too.  I really donít know a lot about brick cheese, but it was buttery on my attempts.  I could try ADY at some point in my experiments.  I guess there was never really a consensus on the Buddyís thread if ADY was used.  I would have thought years ago that Buddyís might have used fresh yeast, but never saw any mention of that. 

I do have soybean oil and might try that in some of my future attempts.  When do you think I should consider using white cheddar cheese, or a cheddar cheese blend.  I might just try the Eddieís brick cheese this week to see what Steve thinks since he also has tried all my pies with a cheddar blend.  Maybe Steve can tell me if he likes the brick cheese alone. 

I will try the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan.  I also would like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan.  I will keep all the same temperatures and times. 

Thanks for doing the calculations again on the weight loss after the bake.  I wonder why the last Buddyís attempt lost more weight. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22442
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #158 on: November 04, 2012, 04:51:59 PM »
Norma,

I could try ADY at some point in my experiments.  I guess there was never really a consensus on the Buddyís thread if ADY was used.  I would have thought years ago that Buddyís might have used fresh yeast, but never saw any mention of that.
 
You are correct in that we do not know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses. In 1946, when Buddy's started making pizza, both fresh yeast and ADY were available to bakers. ADY was invented by Fleishchmann's during World War II. Since you were an adult then and no doubt baking, you may even remember when ADY was introduced to bakers. There is no reason why Buddy's can't be using ADY but, with IDY so readily available, I would imagine that IDY is what Buddy's is using.

When do you think I should consider using white cheddar cheese, or a cheddar cheese blend. I might just try the Eddieís brick cheese this week to see what Steve thinks since he also has tried all my pies with a cheddar blend.  Maybe Steve can tell me if he likes the brick cheese alone.
I agree that it is best to wait to get Steve's opinion on the brick cheese. You have a lot of options available to you on cheeses.

I wonder why the last Buddyís attempt lost more weight.
It's hard to know why the latest Buddy's clone pizza lost more weight than the prior effort. Your most recent Buddy's clone pizza weighed a bit more to begin with, mainly because you used more pizza sauce. Also, you fermented the dough at a higher temperature. That might have resulted in some additional evaporation in the dough. It is also possible that there was more moisture loss in the sauce during baking since there was more of it and because it sits exposed on top of the cheese. Also, because the dough rose more than the last effort, that may have changed the thermodynamics of the dough during baking, resulting in greater loss.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22634
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #159 on: November 04, 2012, 05:30:12 PM »
Norma,
 
You are correct in that we do not know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses. In 1946, when Buddy's started making pizza, both fresh yeast and ADY were available to bakers. ADY was invented by Fleishchmann's during World War II. Since you were an adult then and no doubt baking, you may even remember when ADY was introduced to bakers. There is no reason why Buddy's can't be using ADY but, with IDY so readily available, I would imagine that IDY is what Buddy's is using.
I agree that it is best to wait to get Steve's opinion on the brick cheese. You have a lot of options available to you on cheeses.
It's hard to know why the latest Buddy's clone pizza lost more weight than the prior effort. Your most recent Buddy's clone pizza weighed a bit more to begin with, mainly because you used more pizza sauce. Also, you fermented the dough at a higher temperature. That might have resulted in some additional evaporation in the dough. It is also possible that there was more moisture loss in the sauce during baking since there was more of it and because it sits exposed on top of the cheese. Also, because the dough rose more than the last effort, that may have changed the thermodynamics of the dough during baking, resulting in greater loss.

Peter

Peter,

I sure donít remember when ADY was introduced to bakers.  I am old, but not that old.  :-D  I wonder how we can find out if Buddyís is using ADY or IDY.  I guess it really doesnít matter though.  Since you know about pizzerias than I do, do you have any idea of what the percentages of pizzerias might used ADY?

Thanks for explaining some of the reasons why you thought my latest Buddyís pizza lost more weight than the prior effort.  The idea of the dough rising more and of that changing thermodynamics during baking is interesting.   

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!