Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 253756 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #150 on: November 04, 2012, 09:47:05 AM »
Norma,

It looks like you are making good progress.

Since you changed two major variables at one time, it is hard to say which one was primarily responsible for the results you achieved. It could have been the flour because of its lower protein content and tendency to produce a softer crust, or it might have been the use of your oven to proof the dough and cause it to rise faster, or it might have been a combination of both changes. You would have to drop one of the variables and repeat the experiment to see if that provides the answer. Even then, you might have to do further testing to try to replicate the results to confirm them.

I am glad that you were able to get the desired results using about 70% hydration. When I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I saw that a hydration of about 75% was getting good results among the members. It could well be that the combination of using the lower protein bromated Occident flour and the oven to proof the dough at a higher temperature produced the more open and airy dough without having to resort to a higher hydration. It might be a good idea at some point to do further testing along the lines mentioned above to see how the dough formulation and processing methods might work at market where you may not have something equivalent to your home oven to proof the dough. At some point, you might also want to try using a lower bake temperature, maybe along the lines that Buddy's pizza uses, to see if you can replicate their pizzas using the lower bake temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I know I changed 3 variables this time, with the one variable that you didn’t mention of adding the salt to the warm water.  I guess that wouldn’t change things too much though. 

If I had to guess (and I know you don’t like guesses for variables) it probably was a combination of the lower protein flour (making a stickier dough) and the oven to proof the dough.  The dough was sticker yesterday when using the bromated Occident flour.

I saw on the Buddy’s thread that a hydration of about 75% gave good results.  I am not ready yet to go up to that high of hydration. 

I plan to make at least two dough balls tomorrow for testing at market on Tuesday.  I can use Hatco unit for tempering the dough in the pans to see what happens with that.  I have a stainless steel rack (with 3 shelves) in my shed for the Hatco unit that I can stack steel pans on.  I also ordered some of the bigger steel pans yesterday, so I can try out the Buddy’s clone 8 square pizzas in the future.  I don’t know if it was reported before here on the forum, but the shipping did get cheaper when ordering more pans. 

Since my brother is coming to visit this week, later on this week or maybe over next weekend, I might try a Buddy’s clone pizza in my mom’s gas oven at a lower temperature to see what happens.  I also want to see what my brother thinks of the Buddy’s clone pizzas.  My mom really likes them.  Maybe I will receive the bigger steel pans by that time. 

BTW, no call back about a Buddy’s partially frozen parbaked pizza either.  I might call later about that.

Norma


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #151 on: November 04, 2012, 10:03:11 AM »
Norma,

FYI, I found the radio interview with Wes Pikula by conducting a Google search using his name. Using a person's name for search purposes often turns up good articles or other material where the person is quoted. Those materials frequently describe the company the person works for and its products and methods. Vendors of equipment and other items used by the company especially like to promote their products through articles like that.

The trans fat issue mentioned in the video is with respect to hydrogenated solid fats that Buddy's apparently was using to fry things before they saw the writing on the wall that trans fats were going to be banned in some places. Buddy's did not use those solid fats in relation to their pizzas. Canola oil is mentioned in the video. It is not a solid fat and has no trans fats. I was told some time ago that the Auburn Hills Buddy's location I called was using soybean oil in some form for oiling their square pans (see Reply 137 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136786/topicseen.html#msg136786). Another member (Grilled Pizza) reported at Reply 251 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg104178/topicseen.html#msg104178 that the Warren Buddy's location was using canola oil. So, maybe the different Buddy's locations have the option of using different oils. I believe that the old Crisco is an example of a solid fat that had trans fats. That product has been reformulated to significantly reduce or eliminate the trans fats. Some of our members have reported that they use Crisco or an equivalent vegetable shortening to grease their pans but Buddy's does not do so.

I heard the same price that you heard for the flour that Wes Pikula mentioned in the video. Apparently, Buddy's has enough volume to get the flour by the truckload.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me how you found the radio interview with Wes Pikula.  I also used Wes Pikula’s name in a Google search but didn’t find that radio interview.  I did note that Wes said at one article that the seasoning of the steel pans did make a better tasting crust though in one article I found.

The blue steels are "just like a great black skillet pan," says Wes Pikula, Buddy's vice president of operations. After they're seasoned, "they have a way of capturing the flavors in the metal" in a way that other pans he has tried do not.

I have been using corn oil to oil the steel pans.  Do you think I should try Canola oil?

I also forgot to mention that the Eddie's brick cheese tasted really good on the Buddy's attempt yesterday.  Maybe I am just getting too opinionated from having so much cheddar on Greek style pizza and the boardwalk pizzas.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #152 on: November 04, 2012, 10:06:41 AM »
The dough was sticker yesterday when using the bromated Occident flour.

Norma,

I would imagine that the Occident flour has a lower rated absorption than your Kyrol flour. Did you have any problems handling the dough? For example, if you worked in a Buddy's store do you think you could work with the Occident flour dough balls at around 70% hydration? Of course, we know that Buddy's uses mixers in its stores and the dough balls might be more robust and drier than in a home setting, but the relatively high hydration would still be there.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #153 on: November 04, 2012, 10:42:12 AM »
Norma,

I would imagine that the Occident flour has a lower rated absorption than your Kyrol flour. Did you have any problems handling the dough? For example, if you worked in a Buddy's store do you think you could work with the Occident flour dough balls at around 70% hydration? Of course, we know that Buddy's uses mixers in its stores and the dough balls might be more robust and drier than in a home setting, but the relatively high hydration would still be there.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t have a lot of problems handling the dough yesterday, but then I used my spatula in mixing the dough more and also did a few stretch and folds.  The dough was still sticky though and did stick to my fingers some.  I had to work with the dough quickly to get it to ball, before it became a glob and stuck more to my fingers.  As I posted before, I haven’t been able to use my dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer because the dough amount is too small.  I want to try and use the dough hook, (after the flat beater tomorrow) to see if that makes any difference since I will be making more dough. 

I guess if Buddy’s is using a higher hydration their commercial mixers would mix the dough much better.  I know my Hobart mixes higher hydration doughs better and my dough balls from market are more robust than my home dough balls.  I would have to test the formulation I am using at market, before I would know how that works.  If I start selling Buddy’s clone pizzas, I will be able to test the dough out at market in the Hobart mixer.  I also guess there are only a few employees that know what goes into Buddy’s dough and how to mix, ball and scale.  I wouldn’t think most employees would know that information.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #154 on: November 04, 2012, 11:08:14 AM »
I didn’t have a lot of problems handling the dough yesterday, but then I used my spatula in mixing the dough more and also did a few stretch and folds.

Norma,

I wonder if the dough makers at Buddy's use a fairly high hydration and do some stretch/slap and folds, and that the stretch/slap and folds along with the final fitting of the dough into the pans constitutes "double kneading". As Marlon (bakeshack) mentioned recently at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219743.html#msg219743 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219822.html#msg219822, being able to trap air in the dough before it ferments is beneficial to the final product. Since the Buddy's clone doughs that you have been making are essentially emergency doughs, and with little time for biochemical gluten development, I would imagine that it would be a good idea to work the dough long enough to get good gluten development so as to better capture and retain the gases of fermentation.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have a good flour (e.g., the bromated Occidental flour), use stretch/slap and folds, etc. ("double kneading"), adequately develop the gluten, and subject the dough to sufficient heat to materially lift the dough, you should get very good results in a Buddy's style pizza.

BTW, I wasn't quite sure from the angles of the photos you posted as to the final height of the dough and finished crust. Can you tell me what the measurements were? In particular, I was wondering whether the risen dough exceeded 2"-3" in the pan.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #155 on: November 04, 2012, 12:39:10 PM »
Norma,

I wonder if the dough makers at Buddy's use a fairly high hydration and do some stretch/slap and folds, and that the stretch/slap and folds along with the final fitting of the dough into the pans constitutes "double kneading". As Marlon (bakeshack) mentioned recently at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219743.html#msg219743 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219822.html#msg219822, being able to trap air in the dough before it ferments is beneficial to the final product. Since the Buddy's clone doughs that you have been making are essentially emergency doughs, and with little time for biochemical gluten development, I would imagine that it would be a good idea to work the dough long enough to get good gluten development so as to better capture and retain the gases of fermentation.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have a good flour (e.g., the bromated Occidental flour), use stretch/slap and folds, etc. ("double kneading"), adequately develop the gluten, and subject the dough to sufficient heat to materially lift the dough, you should get very good results in a Buddy's style pizza.

BTW, I wasn't quite sure from the angles of the photos you posted as to the final height of the dough and finished crust. Can you tell me what the measurements were? In particular, I was wondering whether the risen dough exceeded 2"-3" in the pan.

Peter

Peter,

I also wonder if the dough makers at Buddy’s use a fairly high hydration and do use some stretch/slap and folds, with the final fitting included and if that is what constitutes “double kneading”.  I might imagine them letting the dough sit on the counter for a little, before dividing, scaling and balling.  I don’t know how we are going to be able to find that information though.  I would imagine with all the dough balls Buddy’s makes they would want the process as simple as possible.

The links to what Marlon posted are good examples of  how air can be trapped in the dough before it ferments.  I know I have tried some of those methods before when trying high hydration doughs. 

I know that what I have been making in my last Buddy’s clone attempts have been essentially emergency doughs and your idea of if the dough is worked enough to get good gluten development that is a good idea to capture the gases of fermentation.  The flavor of my crusts have seemed to me to be very good tasting, even though what I have been trying have been like an emergency dough.  That still puzzles me.

I wish I had the pictures of the final height of the dough after proofing, but those are still on my camera (with a 5 picture limit on storage without a memory stick).  I didn’t use a ruler to measure that, but the dough was full of bubbles and did rise decently.  This is a picture with a measuring tape of a leftover slice for my mom, but I think the crust shrank since it has been in the fridge.  That measurement isn’t even 1 ½”.  I will try to take better measurements in the future, but that crust looked higher to me, just by looking at it with the naked eye.

Do you have any suggestions on what to try for a one day cold ferment Buddy’s clone for Tuesday, or should I try to keep everything the same, except for the tempering of the dough in the Hatco unit?  I probably will make 3 dough balls.

Norma 

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #156 on: November 04, 2012, 01:36:34 PM »
Norma,

The flavor of my crusts have seemed to me to be very good tasting, even though what I have been trying have been like an emergency dough.  That still puzzles me.

I can see several places where flavor is imparted to the finished crust and also to the slices as a whole. First, with 0.80% IDY, and only a brief fermentation time, you should taste some of the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, the corn oil in the pan also imparts flavor to the finished crust as it bakes into the crust and forms a crispy bottom. Third, the caramelization and crisping up of the brick cheese at the edges of the pan provides both flavor and texture. Finally, from what I have read about brick cheese, it is often described as being 'buttery". Add up all of these flavor components and I can see how the pizza would be quite tasty. To this, I would add that if you ever decide to use ADY instead of IDY, you would get even more yeast flavor because of the larger percent of dead yeast cells for the ADY.

I forgot to mention it earlier but if you want to come closer to what Buddy's uses in its pans in terms of oil, you might try soybean oil or canola oil. Also, at some point, you might consider using white cheddar cheese or a cheddar cheese blend. Even though you liked the flavor of the brick cheese better the last time, I think you were perhaps conditioned to the flavors and textures of the cheddar cheeses and blends that you have used in making the many Greek pizzas and the Mack's and Papa Gino's clone pizzas. If you had started out with the brick cheese and used it over a long period of time, you might have been conditioned to preferring that cheese over the cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends. When I reread the Buddy's thread, I saw that there was a great appeal among the members of cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends.
 
Do you have any suggestions on what to try for a one day cold ferment Buddy’s clone for Tuesday, or should I try to keep everything the same, except for the tempering of the dough in the Hatco unit?  I probably will make 3 dough balls.

I think I would try to replicate at work that which you did in your home oven with the last Buddy's clone pizza. At some later date, you can always try other formulations and methods. One thing you might try is to use the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan. I'd like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan. You would measure the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough is done rising and you use it to make a pizza. As before, you would note the finished dough temperature and the time that the dough goes into the pan and the time when you decide to make the pizza. If the poppy seed trick works, then we can use the information to see if we can come up with a cold ferment version of the Buddy's clone dough.

For your additional information, I calculated the losses during your baking of the last pizza. The unbaked pizza weight was 9.67 ounces of dough + 8 ounces of brick cheese + 4.7 ounces of pizza cheese = 22.37 ounces. The weight of the pizza after baking was 20.49 ounces (581 grams), or a loss of 1.88 ounces. That translates to an 8.4% loss.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #157 on: November 04, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »
Norma,

I can see several places where flavor is imparted to the finished crust and also to the slices as a whole. First, with 0.80% IDY, and only a brief fermentation time, you should taste some of the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, the corn oil in the pan also imparts flavor to the finished crust as it bakes into the crust and forms a crispy bottom. Third, the caramelization and crisping up of the brick cheese at the edges of the pan provides both flavor and texture. Finally, from what I have read about brick cheese, it is often described as being 'buttery". Add up all of these flavor components and I can see how the pizza would be quite tasty. To this, I would add that if you ever decide to use ADY instead of IDY, you would get even more yeast flavor because of the larger percent of dead yeast cells for the ADY.

I forgot to mention it earlier but if you want to come closer to what Buddy's uses in its pans in terms of oil, you might try soybean oil or canola oil. Also, at some point, you might consider using white cheddar cheese or a cheddar cheese blend. Even though you liked the flavor of the brick cheese better the last time, I think you were perhaps conditioned to the flavors and textures of the cheddar cheeses and blends that you have used in making the many Greek pizzas and the Mack's and Papa Gino's clone pizzas. If you had started out with the brick cheese and used it over a long period of time, you might have been conditioned to preferring that cheese over the cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends. When I reread the Buddy's thread, I saw that there was a great appeal among the members of cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends.
 
I think I would try to replicate at work that which you did in your home oven with the last Buddy's clone pizza. At some later date, you can always try other formulations and methods. One thing you might try is to use the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan. I'd like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan. You would measure the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough is done rising and you use it to make a pizza. As before, you would note the finished dough temperature and the time that the dough goes into the pan and the time when you decide to make the pizza. If the poppy seed trick works, then we can use the information to see if we can come up with a cold ferment version of the Buddy's clone dough.

For your additional information, I calculated the losses during your baking of the last pizza. The unbaked pizza weight was 9.67 ounces of dough + 8 ounces of brick cheese + 4.7 ounces of pizza cheese = 22.37 ounces. The weight of the pizza after baking was 20.49 ounces (581 grams), or a loss of 1.88 ounces. That translates to an 8.4% loss.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for pointing to the several places where the flavor is imparted in the whole crust and also to the slices as a whole in the attempted almost emergency doughs I have tried.  I didn’t think about the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheat flavor of the flour.  I did know from the Greek pizzas I have made and also the Sicilian pizzas that the corn oil in the pan imparts a certain flavor in the crust.  I agree that the caramelization at the edges provides great flavor and texture too.  I really don’t know a lot about brick cheese, but it was buttery on my attempts.  I could try ADY at some point in my experiments.  I guess there was never really a consensus on the Buddy’s thread if ADY was used.  I would have thought years ago that Buddy’s might have used fresh yeast, but never saw any mention of that. 

I do have soybean oil and might try that in some of my future attempts.  When do you think I should consider using white cheddar cheese, or a cheddar cheese blend.  I might just try the Eddie’s brick cheese this week to see what Steve thinks since he also has tried all my pies with a cheddar blend.  Maybe Steve can tell me if he likes the brick cheese alone. 

I will try the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan.  I also would like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan.  I will keep all the same temperatures and times. 

Thanks for doing the calculations again on the weight loss after the bake.  I wonder why the last Buddy’s attempt lost more weight. 

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #158 on: November 04, 2012, 04:51:59 PM »
Norma,

I could try ADY at some point in my experiments.  I guess there was never really a consensus on the Buddy’s thread if ADY was used.  I would have thought years ago that Buddy’s might have used fresh yeast, but never saw any mention of that.
 
You are correct in that we do not know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses. In 1946, when Buddy's started making pizza, both fresh yeast and ADY were available to bakers. ADY was invented by Fleishchmann's during World War II. Since you were an adult then and no doubt baking, you may even remember when ADY was introduced to bakers. There is no reason why Buddy's can't be using ADY but, with IDY so readily available, I would imagine that IDY is what Buddy's is using.

When do you think I should consider using white cheddar cheese, or a cheddar cheese blend. I might just try the Eddie’s brick cheese this week to see what Steve thinks since he also has tried all my pies with a cheddar blend.  Maybe Steve can tell me if he likes the brick cheese alone.
I agree that it is best to wait to get Steve's opinion on the brick cheese. You have a lot of options available to you on cheeses.

I wonder why the last Buddy’s attempt lost more weight.
It's hard to know why the latest Buddy's clone pizza lost more weight than the prior effort. Your most recent Buddy's clone pizza weighed a bit more to begin with, mainly because you used more pizza sauce. Also, you fermented the dough at a higher temperature. That might have resulted in some additional evaporation in the dough. It is also possible that there was more moisture loss in the sauce during baking since there was more of it and because it sits exposed on top of the cheese. Also, because the dough rose more than the last effort, that may have changed the thermodynamics of the dough during baking, resulting in greater loss.

Peter


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #159 on: November 04, 2012, 05:30:12 PM »
Norma,
 
You are correct in that we do not know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses. In 1946, when Buddy's started making pizza, both fresh yeast and ADY were available to bakers. ADY was invented by Fleishchmann's during World War II. Since you were an adult then and no doubt baking, you may even remember when ADY was introduced to bakers. There is no reason why Buddy's can't be using ADY but, with IDY so readily available, I would imagine that IDY is what Buddy's is using.
I agree that it is best to wait to get Steve's opinion on the brick cheese. You have a lot of options available to you on cheeses.
It's hard to know why the latest Buddy's clone pizza lost more weight than the prior effort. Your most recent Buddy's clone pizza weighed a bit more to begin with, mainly because you used more pizza sauce. Also, you fermented the dough at a higher temperature. That might have resulted in some additional evaporation in the dough. It is also possible that there was more moisture loss in the sauce during baking since there was more of it and because it sits exposed on top of the cheese. Also, because the dough rose more than the last effort, that may have changed the thermodynamics of the dough during baking, resulting in greater loss.

Peter

Peter,

I sure don’t remember when ADY was introduced to bakers.  I am old, but not that old.  :-D  I wonder how we can find out if Buddy’s is using ADY or IDY.  I guess it really doesn’t matter though.  Since you know about pizzerias than I do, do you have any idea of what the percentages of pizzerias might used ADY?

Thanks for explaining some of the reasons why you thought my latest Buddy’s pizza lost more weight than the prior effort.  The idea of the dough rising more and of that changing thermodynamics during baking is interesting.   

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #160 on: November 04, 2012, 05:34:39 PM »
On my continuing journey to understand more about Buddy’s pizza, a little more information about how Buddy’s and Detroit style pizzas started and pictures of the pies.

http://www.michigan.org/blog/guest-blogger/all-square-a-history-of-detroit-style-pizza/

I am curious if the dough recipe that Anna Gunerra borrowed from her Sicilian mother can be found anywhere on the web.

http://detroitstylepizza.com/history/

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487

A video of Buddy’s pizza on YouTube.



I also found what is said in this article interesting. 

http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/196277/Pizza-champion-working-to-put-Detroit-style-in-the-spotlight

The dough contains enough hydration that it can't be spun. The moisture, Randazzo says, helps with its texture, which is crunchy on the edges and softer in the middle.

There is a lot that sets Detroit-style pizza apart – the flavor, texture, crust, cheese. The dough is completely different. You don't ball it up, press it out and bake it," he said. "It's completely different from traditional pizza. It has a wow factor."

Another descriptions at this article.

Buddy’s pizza certainly shares a local cousin in Burt’s or Pequod’s with its airy crust topped with a halo of caramelized cheese and fresh, never-canned ingredients. Still there’s a lightness to Buddy’s crust which is itself a profusion of olive oil-soaked perforations topped with dollops of peppery sweet sauce and a gooey Wisconsin brick cheese of singular elasticity that’s never been duplicated locally.

http://resto.newcity.com/2007/08/30/a-pie-worth-the-drive-looking-north-for-inspiration/

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #161 on: November 04, 2012, 05:44:59 PM »
Norma,

I sure don’t remember when ADY was introduced to bakers.  I am old, but not that old.  :-D
I threw that in figuring that with all the Limoncellos you were drinking today you wouldn't notice :-D.

I wonder how we can find out if Buddy’s is using ADY or IDY.  I guess it really doesn’t matter though.  Since you know about pizzerias than I do, do you have any idea of what the percentages of pizzerias might used ADY?
I think we would need insider information on the type of yeast Buddy's uses. I have never seen any numbers as to what percent of the pizzerias use ADY. But your question is a good one.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #162 on: November 04, 2012, 09:25:02 PM »
Norma,

I threw that in figuring that with all the Limoncellos you were drinking today you wouldn't notice :-D.

Peter


Peter,

I had enough of those Limoncellos to make me feel good, but not enough to not know what I was doing or reading.  Throw that kind of stuff at me anytime, because I sure got a good chuckle out of it.     :-D

Back to the business of me understanding more about Buddy's pizza. 

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2012, 09:15:05 AM »
So the saga continues for me to find out more what Buddy’s pies look like and any other information I can find, since I don’t live near a Buddy’s. 

Some more pictures of Buddy’s pizza, if the below pictures are clicked on.  There are more than four pictures of Buddy’s pizza from the link below.  Some of the cheese on the edges of Buddy’s pizzas looks browned more than my attempts, some of the edges look crisper, Buddy’s pizza don’t look all that thick, the crumb doesn’t look really airy to me, there looks to be a gum line on one of the pizza in the crumb (I think picture 7) and the cheese does look like the Eddie’s brick cheese when the pizzas are baked.  I wonder why the one  picture that shows a sign that says Cheese Pizza say Motor City Cheese Blend & Tomato Basil Sauce.  I also wonder if the Tomato Basil Sauce is like the Saporito product I use with basil leaves in the tomato sauce.  If that picture can’t be found, it is the one that the sign says Coney Dog Pizza.  I really can’t tell by the sign, (because there is a glare on the top left of it), but what is the G something on there?  I copied that picture and am posting it.

https://foursquare.com/seandolinar/checkin/508c2da6e4b0d2cf8b334aab?s=5CjQBLdu2zopiv4YrB5Lz65YJNQ&ref=tw  (I needed to scroll down to see the picture first four pictures on this linked then started by clicking on the first picture.)

If anyone is interested in looking at all the pizzas at Buddy’s and other foods, start by clicking on the first picture.  I think there are about 30 some pictures at Buddy’s.

I found those pictures at https://twitter.com/buddyspizza under Buddy's Pizza ‏@buddyspizza
Now that sounds fun. RT @seandolinar: Detroit Pizza! #PizzaExplosionTour2012 (@ Buddy's Pizza) http://4sq.com/RpmxBg

This also is a picture of the Pubs of Motor City Detroit Poster.  “Bring the Motor City to your home with an original Pubs of Motor City Poster featuring the one and only original Buddy’s Pizza“

If any of the links from different posters on Buddy’s twitter are clicked on, more pictures of Buddy‘s pizza can be seen.  This is what is recent on Buddy’s twitter account. 

Maybe my last attempt really wasn’t right in how airy the crumb looked and maybe the hydration really isn’t a lot more then 70%.   

I copied the one picture to show the crumb, incase something happens to the links.  I also could copy the other pictures and post them if anyone is interested.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #164 on: November 05, 2012, 09:40:02 AM »
Norma,

You will drive yourself crazy if you try to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy's pizzas as shown in the Buddy's pizza photos all over the Internet. Even if you knew of all of the brands of ingredients used by Buddy's and exactly how their dough is made, and for how long and at what temperatures they bake their pizzas, you most likely wouldn't be able to replicate their pizzas in your home oven setting or even with your deck oven at market. I have never seen a photo of a Buddy's pizza that was baked in a deck oven before they went to conveyor ovens, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a pizza looked different than ones that Buddy's now makes in its conveyor ovens. Pizzas conform to the laws of chemistry, physics and thermodynamics, not the wishes of the pizza maker.

The best you can do is try to come reasonably close to a real Buddy's pizza and try to make the best version you can given your particular operating environment. It may even turn out that your version is better than a real Buddy's pizza. You shouldn't beat yourself up because you can't come up with an exact replica.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #165 on: November 05, 2012, 10:44:18 AM »
Norma,

You will drive yourself crazy if you try to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy's pizzas as shown in the Buddy's pizza photos all over the Internet. Even if you knew of all of the brands of ingredients used by Buddy's and exactly how their dough is made, and for how long and at what temperatures they bake their pizzas, you most likely wouldn't be able to replicate their pizzas in your home oven setting or even with your deck oven at market. I have never seen a photo of a Buddy's pizza that was baked in a deck oven before they went to conveyor ovens, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a pizza looked different than ones that Buddy's now makes in its conveyor ovens. Pizzas conform to the laws of chemistry, physics and thermodynamics, not the wishes of the pizza maker.

The best you can do is try to come reasonably close to a real Buddy's pizza and try to make the best version you can given your particular operating environment. It may even turn out that your version is better than a real Buddy's pizza. You shouldn't beat yourself up because you can't come up with an exact replica.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for posting I will drive myself crazy if I keep trying to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy’s pizzas.

I guess I will just try to do the best I can, with my goal of having a decent Buddy’s clone pizza to sell at market.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2012, 10:48:16 AM »
I called Buddy’s again yesterday to see about them shipping me a parbaked Buddy’s pizza.  The lady told me to call back about 10:00 AM this morning.  I did call Buddy’s and the lady told me they ship though FedEx and I would need to give them a day in advance to get the pizza ready for shipping if I decided to order one.  She also told me they ship the parbaked pizza in dry ice and the approximate cost for that is 45.00, plus the cost for the pizza to my area where I live.  She told me they wouldn’t know the real cost until the day the pizza is shipped.  The lady also told me it would take FedEx two to three days to deliver to my home from the time of shipping from Buddy‘s.  I asked the lady if the Buddy’s pizza that is shipped would taste fresh and she said many people do order Buddy’s pizza to be shipped and they are satisfied that they do taste like a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza. 

I have to give purchasing a parbaked Buddy’s pizza a lot of thought, because that is a lot of money for one pizza.  I also asked if they also ship dough balls and she said no they don’t sell dough balls.

Norma


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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2012, 10:51:06 AM »
I just received this email from Mandi Cheese Shop.  This is what it said.

Good morning Norma,

I am happy to hear your cheese arrived on time, and in good condition! Thank you for letting us know. Eddie's Brick Cheese is made by Great Lakes Cheese in Wisconsin. As brick cheese ages the flavor does get stronger, however, it is a mild cheese to begin with. As for comparing Eddie's Brick Cheese with Foremost Farms Brick Cheese, the ingredients for both cheeses seem to be the same. I do see that Foremost Farms lists their brick cheese as "Firm, stringy" while Eddie's Brick is semi-soft with an open texture. I hope this information helps! Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards, Kayla Kinskey Mandi Cheese Shop

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2012, 10:56:23 AM »
Norma,

I was reading a Buddy's Yelp review recently where a diner described the Buddy's cheese as "nice, robust and stinky". I laughed when I read that because I thought she was perhaps trying to describe the attributes of brick cheese.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2012, 11:33:52 AM »
Norma,

I was reading a Buddy's Yelp review recently where a diner described the Buddy's cheese as "nice, robust and stinky". I laughed when I read that because I thought she was perhaps trying to describe the attributes of brick cheese.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me about a Buddy’s Yelp review that you recently read.  As the lady described Buddy’s cheese as "nice, robust and stinky" I would guess that Buddy’s brick cheese is aged.  That sure gave me a laugh too.  Same problems as the boardwalk thread in getting the cheese/or cheese blend right.   :-D

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2012, 05:45:10 PM »
I mixed enough dough for 3 Buddy’s clone attempts.  The dough was mixed by dissolving the salt into the water, then mixing with the flat beater and then the dough hook.  The dough was still sticky, but not as sticky as when just using the flat beater.  The final dough temperature was 78.3 degrees F.  With a few stretch and folds it became more manageable.  I then put a little flour on the table to be able to scale and ball the dough balls.  Each dough ball weighed 277 grams.  I just put the poppy seeds on the three dough balls to see how much they ferment until tomorrow when I try to temper them in the steel pans in the Hatco unit.  I think this dough is fermenting pretty fast.  From the time I mixed the dough this morning until I took the pictures at market the poppy seeds already have started spreading.   

If anyone wants me to post the print sheet from the formulation I can, but it is the same one I used in my one attempt, but I just used the expanded dough calculation tool for 3 dough balls.

Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2012, 05:47:04 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2012, 05:47:57 PM »
Norma

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #173 on: November 06, 2012, 11:34:16 AM »
Each dough ball weighed 277 grams.
Are you using an 7x10 or 8x10 pan?  Will you please take a photo of the finished crust edge to show the height?  I'm doing an 80% hydration dough today with a 10-hr room-temp rise, and either 375 or 400g per 7x10 pan, and I'll post some pics this evening.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #174 on: November 06, 2012, 09:01:44 PM »
Are you using an 7x10 or 8x10 pan?  Will you please take a photo of the finished crust edge to show the height?  I'm doing an 80% hydration dough today with a 10-hr room-temp rise, and either 375 or 400g per 7x10 pan, and I'll post some pics this evening.

Skee,

I am using a 8x10 steel pan shown at Reply   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.0.html

I will try to resize all of the pictures of the 3 pies I made today and post all of them tomorrow, but these are two pictures of the heights of two of the pizzas I make today.  I used different tempering methods for 3 pies though today.

Are you sure your steel pans are 7x10 inches?  I had thought my pans also were smaller, but when measuring the top edges of my pans are 8x10 inches.  

Norma


 

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