Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 157323 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #300 on: November 14, 2012, 08:33:54 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #301 on: November 14, 2012, 08:34:58 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #302 on: November 14, 2012, 08:36:19 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #303 on: November 14, 2012, 08:38:43 AM »
In the 3rd Buddyís attempt, the dough ball was opened cold right out of the deli case too.  I didnít time how long the dough took to temper, but just watched until I thought the dough in the pan looked tempered enough.  The time wasnít as long as the 1st or 2nd attempt though.  This was the quickest method and it seemed to work okay.  Canola oil was used in the steel pan for this attempt.  The 3rd attempt only had AMPI mild white cheddar and I only applied a much less of my regular market sauce after the bake.  I didnít time the 3rd bake.  Oven spring doesnít seem to be affected by using different methods, at least in my opinion.

My brother is really liking this style of pizza too.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #304 on: November 14, 2012, 08:40:14 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #305 on: November 14, 2012, 08:41:34 AM »
Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #306 on: November 14, 2012, 09:20:03 AM »
Norma, your Buddy's pies are looking great.

How much dough are you using for an 8x10?

I didn't open the dough ball so to speak. I dropped the ball into the pan and let it flow for 6 hours. I'm going to give it a little more time next week.

I liked 100% white cheddar on the edges (piled higher than in the center) and WM mozz with a little cheddar in the center.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #307 on: November 14, 2012, 09:50:21 AM »
Norma, your Buddy's pies are looking great.

How much dough are you using for an 8x10?

I didn't open the dough ball so to speak. I dropped the ball into the pan and let it flow for 6 hours. I'm going to give it a little more time next week.

I liked 100% white cheddar on the edges (piled higher than in the center) and WM mozz with a little cheddar in the center.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for saying the Buddyís pies are looking great.  :)

I am using 277 grams of dough for the 8Ēx10Ē steel pans.

I also thought of just dropping the dough into the pan and letting it either flow, or slowing pressing it out by hand.  That is what my friend Trenton Bills does, because he says the dough is too sticky.  He told me he uses his knuckles to gently press the dough in the pans.  I am trying to open the dough and temper it as fast as I can if I want to make the Buddy's clones at market.

Thanks for telling me how you apply the cheeses and what cheeses you used.

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #308 on: November 14, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »
Peter,

I called Amour Eckrich and spoke with another woman this morning.  She then talked to Lisa and said that Lisa had sent my request for information about the Margherita coarse grind slice pepperoni to Raymond in customer service because they donít have the information about the diameter and thickness of the Margherita coarse pepperoni and how that relates to the Nutrition Facts.  She then transferred me to Raymond and he said his manager was working on that information.  I also asked again if the information would relate to the cooked stage or not.  Raymond told me they also have a non curling pepperoni and I asked if the Margherita coarse sliced pepperoni is a curling pepperoni and he said he doesnít think it was.  I told him my friend uses Vermont Smoked pepperoni in his wood-fired pizzas, so I know what curling pepperonis are.  I donít even know why Raymond mentioned the non curling pepperoni slices.

Raymond said he would send me a email when he receives the information I requested. 

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #309 on: November 14, 2012, 10:08:34 AM »
Raymond told me they also have a non curling pepperoni and I asked if the Margherita coarse sliced pepperoni is a curling pepperoni and he said he doesnít think it was.  I told him my friend uses Vermont Smoked pepperoni in his wood-fired pizzas, so I know what curling pepperonis are.  I donít even know why Raymond mentioned the non curling pepperoni slices.

You have at least two friends using Vermont Smoked pepperoni in their wood-fired pizzas.  ;D

Raymond may have thought you wanted non-curling pepperoni. It might be what he automatically assumes. In my experience working for Hormel, the VAST majority of operators want a non-curling, non-greasing pepperoni.

CL
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #310 on: November 14, 2012, 10:26:00 AM »
Norma,

It is encouraging to see that you were able to bake the latest round of Buddy's clone pizzas in your oven at market without having to go to great lengths to get them to come out right. It is also interesting to see that the type of oven and bake temperatures can vary quite a bit yet get good results. For example, Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor oven and a bake temperature of about 495 degrees F and a bake time of around 11-12 minutes; Via 313 uses a Bakers Pride countertop deck oven and a bake temperature of around 525 degrees F and a bake time of around 15 minutes; in your case, you used the upper part of your regular Bakers Pride deck oven and a bake temperature of 536 degrees F and a bake time of slightly less than 12 minutes. To add to these examples, yesterday I was reading a writeup of Loui's Pizza at http://www2.metrotimes.com/food/review.asp?rid=22572 in which it was reported that Loui's is "able to achieve that perfect char because their special pizza ovens reach a higher-than-normal temperature". I have no idea as to what that special oven is or its temperature but it does not appear that those factors are inhibiting to making a decent pizza. Another positive on this score is that you have demonstrated that it is possible to make decent clones in your home electric oven and in your mother's home gas oven. Moreover, it does not seem to matter all that much how how the dough is made, managed and fermented. Whether one uses oil or a solid fat in the pan also does not seem to matter all that much.

As usual, I have some questions:

1. Have you developed a preference among the many Buddy's clone pizzas you have attempted to date and, if so, which one(s)? For example, do you prefer a cold fermentation over an emergency type fermentation? Do you prefer one type of cheese or blend over another? One type of oil or fat to use in the pans? Or maybe something else?

2. What would you want to see in the way of results so that you could say that the pizzas were "perfect"?

3. Did you weigh the second and third pizzas after baking?

FYI, for the first Buddy's clone dough, the spacing of the two poppy seeds as of the time the dough came out of your deli case suggests that the dough doubled in volume over the course of its initial brief time (15 minutes) at room temperature and its subsequent cold fermentation from 9:20 AM on Monday to 1:58 PM yesterday, or a total elapsed time of about 29 hours. That was just about perfect. By 3:03 PM yesterday, after the temper of that first dough ball, I estimate that the dough ball rose by about another 25%. Also just about perfect. As for the finished baked pizza, based on the information you provided (a final weight of 1.2888 pounds vs. an unbaked weight of 21.77 ounces), I estimate that its loss during baking was 5.28%. This number is interesting but it may not tell us a lot since your pizza was quite a bit different than a basic Buddy's pizza. Actually, I was hoping that you would make a Buddy's clone with brick cheese and pepperoni so that I could compare that data with the data that dicepackage gave us for one of his real Buddy's pepperoni pizza, and in the context of a professional oven rather than a standard home oven. An even truer test would be an emergency dough version at market using your Bakers Pride deck oven. Even then, some differences would remain because of the different types of ovens and bake temperatures and times and the likelihood of different losses during baking.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 11:35:00 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #311 on: November 14, 2012, 10:41:43 AM »
I also thought of just dropping the dough into the pan and letting it either flow, or slowing pressing it out by hand.  That is what my friend Trenton Bills does, because he says the dough is too sticky.  He told me he uses his knuckles to gently press the dough in the pans.  I am trying to open the dough and temper it as fast as I can if I want to make the Buddy's clones at market.

Norma,

If Trenton Bill used the PizzaHog clone dough formulation that I converted to baker's percents at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219524.html#msg219524, with a hydration value of 92.36%, then the dough would have easily flowed to fill the pan. However, based on the actual ingredient quantities that Trenton Bill gave you, the formulation had a much lower hydration, as indicated in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034. In retrospect, Pizzahog has to be given a great deal of credit for what he did to come up with a credible Buddy's clone. Hopefully, at some point we may be able to zero in even more closely to a real Buddy's dough formulation.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #312 on: November 14, 2012, 11:15:35 AM »
You have at least two friends using Vermont Smoked pepperoni in their wood-fired pizzas.  ;D

Raymond may have thought you wanted non-curling pepperoni. It might be what he automatically assumes. In my experience working for Hormel, the VAST majority of operators want a non-curling, non-greasing pepperoni.

CL

Craig,

I know I have at least two friends that use the Vermont Smoked pepperoni in their wood-fired pizzas.  ;D I also love the Vermont Smoked pepperoni.  The other pepperoni that Steve gave me that I tried in my moms gas oven was also very good.  I tried that on wood-fired pizzas and it did taste almost the same and also curled nicely just about like the Vermont Smoked pepperoni and it sure is a lot cheaper.  It didnít curl though in when placed under the cheese in my moms gas oven. 

My pepperoni I use at market is really greasy and sure doesnĎt curl. 

I am not sure what Raymond meant when he said they also carried non curling pepperoni.  When I asked Raymond if the pepperoni I was asking about curled, he said he didnít think so.  That statement was a little confusing to me, but at the time, didnít think to ask more.  :-\

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #313 on: November 14, 2012, 11:18:31 AM »
Peter,

I knew you would have questions.  :-D I will answer them later today after I take my brother to the airport.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #314 on: November 14, 2012, 04:45:12 PM »
Peter,

I just spoke to Shawn Kaylor at Armour Eckrich on the phone.

This is what he had to say.  He just shot me an email with the same information that he told me when he spoke to me.  I had asked where I could purchase the Margherita coarse grind slice pepperoni in my area too.  Looks like Detroit is a popular area that the Margherita coarse grind sliced pepperoni is sold. 

Norma,

It was great talking to you. Per our conversation, the product is 36MM (Standard Pepperoni is 44MM) and is sliced 15-17 slices per oz. It will appear thicker than standard pizza pepperoni as it is smaller in diameter.
The product is not a cup n char product.
The closest distributors in your area pulling are as such. Your local distributor can also pull this item from DOT Foods, if they currently are set up to pull from DOT Foods. DOT is a National Re-Distribution Company.
Finally, I will have our regional sales manager touch base with you.

ANTONIO SOFO & SON OH   TOLEDO   OH   Ohio
CARAMAGNO FOODS COMPANY   DETROIT   MI   Michigan
BNCC SYSCO CLEVELAND INC   CLEVELAND   OH   Ohio
DOT FOODS INC-FROZEN WAREHOUSE   MOUNT STERLING   IL   Illinois
RDP FOODSERVICE   COLUMBUS   OH   Ohio
SIDARIS ITALIAN FOODS   CLEVELAND   OH   Ohio


Shawn Kaylor
Business Development / National Account Sales

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #315 on: November 14, 2012, 04:56:52 PM »
I forgot to post that Shawn told me over the phone that the target amount for one ounce is 16 slices, but it can vary between 15-17 slices.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #316 on: November 14, 2012, 05:44:01 PM »
I forgot to post that Shawn told me over the phone that the target amount for one ounce is 16 slices, but it can vary between 15-17 slices.

Norma

If you count them, most brands will tend towards the thicker (lower slice count) end of the range. They sell more that way.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #317 on: November 14, 2012, 05:53:29 PM »
Norma,

It is encouraging to see that you were able to bake the latest round of Buddy's clone pizzas in your oven at market without having to go to great lengths to get them to come out right. It is also interesting to see that the type of oven and bake temperatures can vary quite a bit yet get good results. For example, Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor oven and a bake temperature of about 495 degrees F and a bake time of around 11-12 minutes; Via 313 uses a Bakers Pride countertop deck oven and a bake temperature of around 525 degrees F and a bake time of around 15 minutes; in your case, you used the upper part of your regular Bakers Pride deck oven and a bake temperature of 536 degrees F and a bake time of slightly less than 12 minutes. To add to these examples, yesterday I was reading a writeup of Loui's Pizza at http://www2.metrotimes.com/food/review.asp?rid=22572 in which it was reported that Loui's is "able to achieve that perfect char because their special pizza ovens reach a higher-than-normal temperature". I have no idea as to what that special oven is or its temperature but it does not appear that those factors are inhibiting to making a decent pizza. Another positive on this score is that you have demonstrated that it is possible to make decent clones in your home electric oven and in your mother's home gas oven. Moreover, it does not seem to matter all that much how how the dough is made, managed and fermented. Whether one uses oil or a solid fat in the pan also does not seem to matter all that much.

As usual, I have some questions:

1. Have you developed a preference among the many Buddy's clone pizzas you have attempted to date and, if so, which one(s)? For example, do you prefer a cold fermentation over an emergency type fermentation? Do you prefer one type of cheese or blend over another? One type of oil or fat to use in the pans? Or maybe something else?

2. What would you want to see in the way of results so that you could say that the pizzas were "perfect"?

3. Did you weigh the second and third pizzas after baking?

FYI, for the first Buddy's clone dough, the spacing of the two poppy seeds as of the time the dough came out of your deli case suggests that the dough doubled in volume over the course of its initial brief time (15 minutes) at room temperature and its subsequent cold fermentation from 9:20 AM on Monday to 1:58 PM yesterday, or a total elapsed time of about 29 hours. That was just about perfect. By 3:03 PM yesterday, after the temper of that first dough ball, I estimate that the dough ball rose by about another 25%. Also just about perfect. As for the finished baked pizza, based on the information you provided (a final weight of 1.2888 pounds vs. an unbaked weight of 21.77 ounces), I estimate that its loss during baking was 5.28%. This number is interesting but it may not tell us a lot since your pizza was quite a bit different than a basic Buddy's pizza. Actually, I was hoping that you would make a Buddy's clone with brick cheese and pepperoni so that I could compare that data with the data that dicepackage gave us for one of his real Buddy's pepperoni pizza, and in the context of a professional oven rather than a standard home oven. An even truer test would be an emergency dough version at market using your Bakers Pride deck oven. Even then, some differences would remain because of the different types of ovens and bake temperatures and times and the likelihood of different losses during baking.

Peter



Peter,

I had thought until yesterday that I might have to go though great lengths to get the Buddyís clone baked right in my deck oven with screens or trying other methods.  That wasnít the case yesterday though.  It seems like my top deck bakes just fine with using MFB or Canola oil.  I wonder what temperature Buddyís used years ago when they used a deck oven. 

Thank you for the link about Louiís Pizza.  I find it interesting that Louis Tourtois learned his trade while working at Buddyís for 17 years and Shieldís for 7 years.  Louis sure had a good head-start with working at those Detroit pizzerias for such a long while.  I see he uses higher than normal bake temperature in their special pizza oven, but as you noted you donĎt know what kind of oven or bake temperatures he uses.  At the end of the article it says that the all-female waitstaff, many whom are in their second decade at Louiís and goes on to say Typical is the exuberant Diane, who, placing her hand on your shoulder, may ask, "What can I get you, hon?"  That made me chuckle because my one sign at market does almost says "What can I get you, hon?"   :-D

I agree that it is possible to be able to make a decent Buddyís clone at market, in my home electric oven, or even my moms gas oven and it isnít difficult in any of those ovens. 

One of the reasons I wanted to do those experiments yesterday to see if it mattered on how the dough is made, managed and fermented.  It really didnít seem to matter, at least in those experiments.

To answer your question.

1.  No, I havenít developed a preference among the Buddyís clone pizzas I have attempted to this date.  It doesnít seem to matter if the dough is an emergency dough, or if the dough is cold fermented.  The taste of the crust stays the same to me.  I think my preference is using the AMPI mild white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas.  Since I never tried a real Buddyís pizza though, I have no idea how their brick cheese, or blend tastes.  I have tried enough of blends though in other styles of pizzas. 

2.  I really canít ever say there is a ďperfect pizzaĒ in any category.  As you know I have tried so many styles of pizzas, with many ovens and many formulations.  I am always learning about all styles of pizzas and when I think I have found what might be called my ďperfectĒ pizza it can change as it did many times.  I did like the one attempt in my momís home oven and the third Buddyís attempt I did at market yesterday the best so far.   

3.  I did weigh the second pizza that was made yesterday, but didnít write the weight down.  I know it was 1.4 lb. something, but thought what was the use in writing it down and then posting it since the sauce was applied after the bake.  I thought that since none of the water would be taken out of the sauce in the bake, the weight of that pizza wouldnít tell anything.  I did use 4 ounces of sauce and 8 ounces of cheese though.  For the last pizza that was made yesterday, I didnít add 8 ounces of cheese, or 4 ounces of sauce.  I just added what I thought was enough of the AMPI mild cheddar, then just applied less sauce than I did for my second attempt.  Weighing that wouldnít be of much help either in my opinion.

Thanks for explaining about how much the dough fermented by looking at the pictures and timelines.  I did post at Reply 291 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223345.html#msg22334 5 that the first dough ball was left to temper at room temperature from 1:58 PM when it was taken out of the deli case, until 3:03 PM in the plastic container.  Did you get that mixed-up that the dough had doubled in what you posted as 15 minutes, or is it me that is confused?  I am not sure I am understanding that. 

Thank you for also telling me what the weigh loss was. 

I didnít know you wanted me to try brick cheese and pepperoni on an attempted Buddyís clone yesterday.  I was going to put pepperoni (Steveís stick brand) under the cheese on that attempt, but got too busy to cut the stick.  If you want me to I can try the brick cheese and Steveís pepperoni next week I can. 

I donít know if I am ready to try an emergency dough at market.  I am pretty busy in the mornings without Steve, since I am the one that has to do everything.  If you think I could make the emergency dough at home, maybe I could try that. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #318 on: November 14, 2012, 05:56:40 PM »
If you count them, most brands will tend towards the thicker (lower slice count) end of the range. They sell more that way.

Craig,

I didn't know that most brands lower slice count end of of the range, meaning they sell more that way.  I am only familiar with what I normally use.

Thanks for the information!  :)

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #319 on: November 14, 2012, 06:03:49 PM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for the latest information on the Margherita #38616-31329 coarse grind pepperoni.

Actually, the information on serving size and number of slices per serving size you previously gave me was sufficient for me to do some calculation as to the weight of pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza. However, I wanted to be absolutely certain that the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices were smaller but thicker than the most common sizes that I have seen at retail and from my research on the matter. The 35mm diameter size that you got from Armour Eckrich converts to about 1.42" (36 x 0.03937 = 1.42"). You might recall that one of our members reported that the pepperoni slices used on Buddy's pizzas were about the size of a quarter. Since the diameter of a quarter is about an inch, the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices are actually almost 1/2" larger in diameter. The 44mm slice is about 1.73".

While I was awaiting your update on this matter, I went back to the Buddy's Nutrition webpage at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3 and did a comparison of the nutrition information of a basic Buddy's cheese slice and a basic Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. I assumed that the only difference between a Buddy's cheese pizza and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza was the pepperoni slices. I also assumed that there are 20 pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza, or an average of 5 slices per square. I got the total slice number from the photo given at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg. That is the only photo that I have seen with the pepperoni slices assembled on the pizza before the cheese is added on top of the pepperoni slices. For purposes of my calculations, I assumed that there were 16 pepperoni slices per ounce. On that basis, 20 slices weigh 1.25 ounces.

Using the above information together with the Margherita Nutrition Facts that you provided at Reply 283 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223137.html#msg223137, I was able to effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. The factors I looked at included Total Fat, Sat Fat, Cholesterol, Sodium and Protein. There are rounding factors that I could not account for but I believe that the comparison I conducted supports the conclusion that Buddy's is using 20 slices of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni for a 4-square pizza. This does not rule out the possibility that Buddy's is using a larger size pepperoni slice in one or more of its locations since the number of such slices per serving size is similar to the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni product. The slices would be larger and thinner but weigh the same in total. I have no evidence that Buddy's is using the larger size pepperoni slices.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:11:30 PM by Pete-zza »