Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!

[Chicago Bob]

Craig,

I didn't know that most brands lower slice count end of of the range, meaning they sell more that way.  I am only familiar with what I normally use.

Thanks for the information! 

Norma

  Bless your heart Norma...

[norma427]

Norma,

If Trenton Bill used the PizzaHog clone dough formulation that I converted to baker's percents at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219524.html#msg219524, with a hydration value of 92.36%, then the dough would have easily flowed to fill the pan. However, based on the actual ingredient quantities that Trenton Bill gave you, the formulation had a much lower hydration, as indicated in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034. In retrospect, Pizzahog has to be given a great deal of credit for what he did to come up with a credible Buddy's clone. Hopefully, at some point we may be able to zero in even more closely to a real Buddy's dough formulation.

Peter

Peter,

I think Trenton Bill was confused in what he really used, but at least it worked for him and me when you converted the recipe at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034  and I used Pizzahog’s TF.

Trenton Bill called me Monday evening to talk more about how I mix the dough I am using now.  He said his dough is still too sticky to do what I am doing.  I am not sure if he has used the dough calculating tools, but he is using a bigger pan than I have in my recent attempts.  I told Trenton Bill I would call him back to see if I can help him more with his stickyness since my brother was at my home at the time.  Trenton Bill originally tried one of Pizzahogs formulations on the Buddy’s thread because he likes a Sicilian pie in his area and never could duplicate it.  I wish Trenton Bill would become a member and have told him that many times, because he plays around with pizzas as much as I do.   

I agree that Pizzahog has to be given a great deal of credit for what he did to come up with a credible Buddy’s clone.  If it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t be making the Buddy’s clone attempts I am now.  Pizzahog kept at trying to make a credible clone for a long while.     Thanks so much Pizzahog!! 

I also hope we can zero in even more with a real Buddy’s dough formulation, but I am about satisfied with what you converted right now. 

I think I still might have to purchase a real Buddy’s pizza.  If only it wasn’t so expensive to get it shipped.  I am still thinking about purchasing one.  I talked to Steve about that yesterday and Steve said the Buddy’s clones I have been trying probably are better than a par-baked Buddy’s pizza.  That is one thing that is keeping me from purchasing one, because I have an adversity to par-baked pizza.

I did call about my larger steel pans I ordered and they told me the shipping tags were made out last Tuesday and the pans really weren’t shipped then.  They told me my bigger steel pan would be shipped yesterday.  I am anxious to try them. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you very much for the latest information on the Margherita #38616-31329 coarse grind pepperoni.

Actually, the information on serving size and number of slices per serving size you previously gave me was sufficient for me to do some calculation as to the weight of pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza. However, I wanted to be absolutely certain that the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices were smaller but thicker than the most common sizes that I have seen at retail and from my research on the matter. The 35mm diameter size that you got from Armour Eckrich converts to about 1.42" (36 x 0.03937 = 1.42"). You might recall that one of our members reported that the pepperoni slices used on Buddy's pizzas were about the size of a quarter. Since the diameter of a quarter is about an inch, the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices are actually almost 1/2" larger in diameter. The 44mm slice is about 1.73".

While I was awaiting your update on this matter, I went back to the Buddy's Nutrition webpage at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp and did a comparison of the nutrition information of a basic Buddy's cheese slice and a basic Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. I assumed that the only difference between a Buddy's cheese pizza and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza was the pepperoni slices. I also assumed that there are 20 pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza, or an average of 5 slices per square. I got the total slice number from the photo given at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg. That is the only photo that I have seen with the pepperoni slices assembled on the pizza before the cheese is added on top of the pepperoni slices. For purposes of my calculations, I assumed that there were 16 pepperoni slices per ounce. On that basis, 20 slices weigh 1.25 ounces.

Using the above information together with the Margherita Nutrition Facts that you provided at Reply 283 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223137.html#msg223137, I was able to effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. The factors I looked at included Total Fat, Sat Fat, Cholesterol, Sodium and Protein. There are rounding factors that I could not account for but I believe that the comparison I conducted supports the conclusion that Buddy's is using 20 slices of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni for a 4-square pizza. This does not rule out the possibility that Buddy's is using a larger size pepperoni slice in one or more of its locations since the number of such slices per serving size is similar to the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni product. The slices would be larger and thinner but weigh the same in total. I have no evidence that Buddy's is using the larger size pepperoni slices.

Peter

Peter,

I still don’t know how you do the calculations from Nutrition Facts and go from there to clone a pizza, but find it very interesting.  How you effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy’s cheese slice and a Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni slice is amazing.  Thanks for telling what factors you look for.  Thanks also for the link to the assembling of the pepperoni on a Buddy’s pizza.  I saw that from the same link you referenced before, but it refreshes my memory.

Thanks for doing the calculations and showing what they are. 

If I try another Buddy’s attempt next week with pepperoni I guess I will go with 1.25 ounces of pepperoni no matter what kind I use, since that is the number you posted.  Do you have a preference on what brand I try? 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thanks for explaining about how much the dough fermented by looking at the pictures and timelines.  I did post at Reply 291 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223345.html#msg22334 5 that the first dough ball was left to temper at room temperature from 1:58 PM when it was taken out of the deli case, until 3:03 PM in the plastic container.  Did you get that mixed-up that the dough had doubled in what you posted as 15 minutes, or is it me that is confused?  I am not sure I am understanding that.

I believe I stated everything correctly but it is possible that I misstated something because I had to go to several of your posts to piecemeal everything together. However, if you look at the first photo that you posted in Reply 291 showing the two poppy seeds separated by 1 1/4", the dough had about doubled by that point. If you look at the second photo in that post showing the poppy seeds separated by a tad more than 1 1/4", the dough had increased in volume by about another 25%. If you are interested, I believe that this is the entire timeline:

9:05 AM to 9:20 AM, Monday: 15-min. room temperature rest before placing the dough in the deli case
9:20 AM Monday to 1:58 PM Tuesday: Dough cold ferments in the deli case
1:58 PM to 3:03 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of the deli case and tempers in its storage container at room temperature
3:03 PM to 4:35 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of its storage container and tempers at room temperature in pan (8" x 10")

The total elapsed time I mentioned was up to the point of the second photo you showed with the poppy seeds.

I didn’t know you wanted me to try brick cheese and pepperoni on an attempted Buddy’s clone yesterday.  I was going to put pepperoni (Steve’s stick brand) under the cheese on that attempt, but got too busy to cut the stick.  If you want me to I can try the brick cheese and Steve’s pepperoni next week I can.  

I don’t know if I am ready to try an emergency dough at market.  I am pretty busy in the mornings without Steve, since I am the one that has to do everything.  If you think I could make the emergency dough at home, maybe I could try that.

 
The reason why I was interested in a Buddy's 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza based on using an emergency type dough, brick cheese, and baked in your deck oven at market is because that would be likely to produce the best loss information, especially since your bake temperature and time are similar to Buddy's. That loss information is what would be used with the Margherita pepperoni information and the information that dicepackage provided to try to close in on the amount of dough that Buddy's uses to make its square pizzas. For now, I plan to play around with the loss data we have accumulated to date to see what the variances are and whether they are material to the calculations.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I still don’t know how you do the calculations from Nutrition Facts and go from there to clone a pizza, but find it very interesting.  How you effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy’s cheese slice and a Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni slice is amazing.

As I previously mentioned, I was not particularly enamored of the Buddy's Nutrition information. However, I felt that analyzing the differences between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice, on the assumption that a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza is the same as a Buddy's cheese pizza but with pepperoni added, would be productive and perhaps tell me what Buddy's is using for pepperoni and in what amount. The math for doing this is very simple.

If I try another Buddy’s attempt next week with pepperoni I guess I will go with 1.25 ounces of pepperoni no matter what kind I use, since that is the number you posted.  Do you have a preference on what brand I try? 

As long as you use 1.25 ounces (35 grams) of pepperoni slices, it shouldn't matter what brand of pepperoni you use. Use a brand that you personally enjoy.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,
 
I believe I stated everything correctly but it is possible that I misstated something because I had to go to several of your posts to piecemeal everything together. However, if you look at the first photo that you posted in Reply 291 showing the two poppy seeds separated by 1 1/4", the dough had about doubled by that point. If you look at the second photo in that post showing the poppy seeds separated by a tad more than 1 1/4", the dough had increased in volume by about another 25%. If you are interested, I believe that this is the entire timeline:

9:05 AM to 9:20 AM, Monday: 15-min. room temperature rest before placing the dough in the deli case
9:20 AM Monday to 1:58 PM Tuesday: Dough cold ferments in the deli case
1:58 PM to 3:03 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of the deli case and tempers in its storage container at room temperature
3:03 PM to 4:35 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of its storage container and tempers at room temperature in pan (8" x 10")

The total elapsed time I mentioned was up to the point of the second photo you showed with the poppy seeds.
 
The reason why I was interested in a Buddy's 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza based on using an emergency type dough, brick cheese, and baked in your deck oven at market is because that would be likely to produce the best loss information, especially since your bake temperature and time are similar to Buddy's. That loss information is what would be used with the Margherita pepperoni information and the information that dicepackage provided to try to close in on the amount of dough that Buddy's uses to make its square pizzas. Fo now, I plan to play around with the loss data we have accumulated to date to see what the variances are and whether they are material to the calculations.

Peter

Peter,

I believe you posted everything correctly, and believe it was me that was confused. 

Thanks for posting the timeline.  I was interested.

I can try an emergency dough if I get up early enough on Tuesday if you think that will be helpful since my bake time temperature and time are similar to Buddy’s in my deck oven. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,
As I previously mentioned, I was not particularly enamored of the Buddy's Nutrition information. However, I felt that analyzing the differences between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice, on the assumption that a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza is the same as a Buddy's cheese pizza but with pepperoni added, would be productive and perhaps tell me what Buddy's is using for pepperoni and in what amount. The math for doing this is very simple.
As long as you use 1.25 ounces (35 grams) of pepperoni slices, it shouldn't matter what brand of pepperoni you use. Use a brand that you personally enjoy.

Peter

Peter,

I know you were not particularly enamored of Buddy’s Nutrition information.  I think what you did with the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni slice, on the assumption that a Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza are the same as a Buddy’s cheese pizza, but without the pepperoni added was productive.  The math might be simple for you, but surely not for me. 

I think I will use the brand of pepperoni Steve brought for me to try.  I really like that pepperoni.  It is a curling pepperoni, but didn’t curl for me when place under the cheese at my moms.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I can try an emergency dough if I get up early enough on Tuesday if you think that will be helpful since my bake time temperature and time are similar to Buddy’s in my deck oven. 

Norma,

We have plenty of time to address this matter. The range of losses of the Buddy's clones you have made to date run from about 5.28% to almost 11%. Maybe I can find the one that was closest to a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and use the weight loss for that clone for my calculations.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

We have plenty of time to address this matter. The range of losses of the Buddy's clones you have made to date run from about 5.28% to almost 11%. Maybe I can find the one that was closest to a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and use the weight loss for that clone for my calculations.

Peter

Peter,

The range of losses of the Buddy’s attempts I made were wide in my opinion.  Thanks for posting what the ranges were.  Let me if you change your mind in me trying an emergency Buddy’s clone with pepperoni for Tuesday.  It really doesn’t take that long to mix one dough ball.

I might try a larger batch of Buddy’s clone dough balls on Monday at market for customers to taste test or sell Tuesday, if I get my new steel pans until then.  So far, when customers, or potential customers saw the Buddy’s clone pizzas they were interested in them.  I will wait and see if the people are still interested when I start making the Buddy’s clone for sale. I just need to figured out how many dough balls that might be.  I know I usually need at least a 5 dough ball batch of NY style dough for my Hobart to mix properly, but it will be much more than a 5 dough ball batch with the low weight of what I have been using for the Buddy‘s clones.

I think I am going to purchase a 25 lb. bag of the bromated Occident flour on Friday.

Norma

[Tscarborough]

Norma, those are some beautiful pizzas.  I have never had a Buddy's, but I have had some Detroit style.  I like to put the sauce on a few minutes before it is done, then put it back in. 

I think a lot of the time disparity is oven difference and the fact that in a busy oven, times will expand with use, which is not an issue when cooking one or two

[norma427]

Norma, those are some beautiful pizzas.  I have never had a Buddy's, but I have had some Detroit style.  I like to put the sauce on a few minutes before it is done, then put it back in. 

I think a lot of the time disparity is oven difference and the fact that in a busy oven, times will expand with use, which is not an issue when cooking one or two

Tom,

Thanks for your kind words.  I also never had a real Buddy’s pizza.  You are lucky that you had the opportunity to try some Detroit style pies.  I guess they were from Via 313.  Thanks for posting you like to put the sauce on a few minutes before the pizza is done.  That is a great tip!   

I agree that how many times an oven door is opened and shut will make differences in how the pizzas are baked, or how long they take to bake.  I see that in my deck oven all the time.  I also saw that in my moms gas oven, because I kept opening the door on her gas oven because I wasn’t sure how her gas oven was going to bake in the first Buddy‘s clone I tried at her home.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I don’t know if you or other members saw this article from a blogger, but the article talks about Detroit Style Pizzas.  At Detroit Style Pizza they do use a deck oven to bake their Detroit Style pizzas.  A picture of the deck oven is shown in this bloggers article.
http://greatlakesbetterfood.blogspot.com/2012/08/an-extended-look-at-all-square-history.html

I wonder if the fermenting pans of dough at Detroit Style pizza are never covered.  I would think the skins would develop a dryness, or crust on top.  That was something like when I used my Hatco Unit last week and I even covered the pans, but somehow air must have gotten inside the pans and formed a dry skin, or crust on them.  The dry skins didn’t seem to do anything in my Buddy’s attempts in how the crust rose in the oven though.  The crumb was still moist too. 

The blogger also mentions Pizza Making with helping him find information.

The pans sitting out without a lid can also be seen at an article on Slice about Loui’s Pizza.  The pans are cross stacked like Detroit Style pizza pans.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/louis-pizza-hazel-park-michigan-mi-detroit-thick-crust.html?ref=search

I wonder if it even matters if covers or lids aren’t on the steel pan while they are tempering at room temperature.

For anyone that has a face book page it can be seen that Brown Dog Pizza, another pizzeria that offers Detroit style pizza, did bake their Detroit style pizzas in the American Pizza Championships on September 9, 2011 in a deck oven.  There are a lot of pictures on Brown Dog Pizza facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brown-Dog-Pizza/82497826397?ref=ts&sk=photos#!/media/set/?set=a.10150304492986398.336098.82497826397&type=3   Brown Dog Pizza Detroit style looks a little bit thicker to me.  Brown Dog Pizza won a championship for their Detroit style pizzas.

I copied a few pictures off of Brown Dogs Pizza facebook page incase members don’t have a facebook page to look at the pictures .  The one picture with the deck oven also shows a pan sitting on top of the oven with no cover on the steel pan.  I don’t know what make those deck oven are.

Did anyone ever post whether the pans are covered or not here on the forum at Buddy’s and do you think it would make any differences?

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Seems like Tony Gemignai’s also helped Smokeitch create his Detroit-style pizzas.

http://www.browndogpizza.net/UserFiles/File/BrownDog-watch-9-29-11.pdf

Norma

[norma427]

I received my 3 pre-seasoned steel pizza pans today from Detroit Style Pizza Co. 

Norma

[Skee]

Norma - in the first picture of the second post of Brown Dog pics, do you know what he's putting along the edge of the crust with the pastry blade?  Looks like butter to me.

Here are some pics from Tuesday's dinner.  I did a 24-hour room-temp (low 70s) rise and didn't want to over-proof, so I used 15g of sourdough starter (2%) for two 350g crusts, 70% hydration, KASL, with minimal kneading up front and two ballings (one after ~12 hours of bulk rise, the second about six hours later, just before panning), then let the dough rise in the pans for five hours before pressing and stretching, followed by about an hour proofing in a warm oven.  Used the convection-bake option set at 500F to get the bottom stone to 550F, then shut off the fan and set the temp to 475 for a 15-minute bake.

The first pic is of the just-balled dough in the pan, the second following the 5-hr rise.  The other two made me hungry for lunch, but I wanted to show the bottom crust in particular - you can see a little more browning than usual, probably because I started the pizzas on the hotter stone.  The lower hydration with the KASL made the dough easier to handle but it was still nice and soft on the interior with a crispy bottom and edge - got excellent scores from the happy family!

[Pete-zza]

Did anyone ever post whether the pans are covered or not here on the forum at Buddy’s and do you think it would make any differences?

Norma,

According to the former employee of Buddy's, "lufty", Buddy's cross stacked its pans, as noted in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I do not recall that the top of the dough in the pan is coated with oil but some workers at Buddy's apparently oiled their fingers when they spread the dough in the pan, as noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. BTW, I have been editing Reply 126 recently so that, together with the many links referenced therein, it contains just about everything I know about the Buddy's dough and procedures.

The only company that I am aware of that covers its pans for its square style pizzas is Jet's.

I noted from the blog report you referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 that mention is made that Buddy's adds Parmesan cheese to its pizzas. I believe that that is for the Detroiter specialty pizza mentioned and shown in the report. That pizza has the pepperoni on top and is described on the Buddy's menu as follows: Cheese, pepperoni on top, tomato basil sauce, topped with shaved parmesan cheese and Buddy’s spice blend.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma - in the first picture of the second post of Brown Dog pics, do you know what he's putting along the edge of the crust with the pastry blade?  Looks like butter to me.

Here are some pics from Tuesday's dinner.  I did a 24-hour room-temp (low 70s) rise and didn't want to over-proof, so I used 15g of sourdough starter (2%) for two 350g crusts, 70% hydration, KASL, with minimal kneading up front and two ballings (one after ~12 hours of bulk rise, the second about six hours later, just before panning), then let the dough rise in the pans for five hours before pressing and stretching, followed by about an hour proofing in a warm oven.  Used the convection-bake option set at 500F to get the bottom stone to 550F, then shut off the fan and set the temp to 475 for a 15-minute bake.

The first pic is of the just-balled dough in the pan, the second following the 5-hr rise.  The other two made me hungry for lunch, but I wanted to show the bottom crust in particular - you can see a little more browning than usual, probably because I started the pizzas on the hotter stone.  The lower hydration with the KASL made the dough easier to handle but it was still nice and soft on the interior with a crispy bottom and edge - got excellent scores from the happy family!

Skee,

In the first photo at Reply 332 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223644.html#msg223644  this is what it says.
Applying the whipped New York ricotta and pressed garlic, so I don’t think it was butter that was applied, but don’t really know.  If you look at the some of these photos, it looks like the crust in the pan might have been par-baked, but I sure can’t make out if it was or not. 

In the first picture below, I am not sure if the crust is par-baked either and also am not sure what is applied as a dressing.

The second picture says this.  Me and Shawn Randazzo (owner of Cloverleaf Pizza in Detroit, MI)

In the third picture it says this.  Whole Milk Mozzarella

In the fourth pictures it says this.  Did the bottom bake?  Lol, that sounds like me.

In the fifth picture, I can’t be sure, but that dough in the pan might also be par-baked.

Wow, your sourdough starter Detroit-style pies look fantastic.  I can see why you got excellent scores from your family.  How did you decide on using 350 grams for a Detroit style pizza?  Do you think you need a 5 hr. temper with the dough ball in the pan?  It that was has given you the best results?   The bottom of the crust looks nice and crispy.  What did you used as the oil?

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

According to the former employee of Buddy's, "lufty", Buddy's cross stacked its pans, as noted in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I do not recall that the top of the dough in the pan is coated with oil but some workers at Buddy's apparently oiled their fingers when they spread the dough in the pan, as noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. BTW, I have been editing Reply 126 recently so that, together with the many links referenced therein, it contains just about everything I know about the Buddy's dough and procedures.

The only company that I am aware of that covers its pans for its square style pizzas is Jet's.

I noted from the blog report you referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 that mention is made that Buddy's adds Parmesan cheese to its pizzas. I believe that that is for the Detroiter specialty pizza mentioned and shown in the report. That pizza has the pepperoni on top and is described on the Buddy's menu as follows: Cheese, pepperoni on top, tomato basil sauce, topped with shaved parmesan cheese and Buddy’s spice blend.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link where you quoted what lufty said about Buddy’s cross stacking its pans. I do recall that some workers at Buddy’s apparently oiled their finger when they spread the dough in the pan.  I guess that would help with the skin not drying out, if no lids are used.  It is still confusing to me if oiling (oiling with fingers dipped in oil), or not oiling the skins any would hurt the rise in the pans or not, but I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Thanks for updating Reply 126 at the Buddy’s thread.  I have a hard time remembering all that has gone on in the Buddy’s thread, but can go back and read Reply 126 to refresh my memory. 

Thanks for straightening out about why the Parmesan cheese was mentioned in the blog report.

Norma

[norma427]

I just wanted to note that my new seasoned steel pizza pans really aren’t 10”x14” if they are measured with a metal measuring tape on the top edges.  I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Norma